Fan Forum
Remember Me?
Register

  New Forum Poll   |     Fall TV Shows   |     Request a Forum   |     View New Forums

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-05-2015, 05:06 PM
  #46
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
I still cannot let go of this episode and how much it bothers me. I hate that Bay chose to go out to dinner with Tank.

Everything in me is screaming at how wrong it is, on all kinds of different levels.

When the episode aired, I actually saw some people posting on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumblr (and maybe Fan Forum--I cannot remember), about how immature Emmett is, when Bay tells him the news. They said he whined, pouted, and acted like a big baby.

Actually, no. Emmett didn't do any of those things, and I do not understand that claim.

I also do not understand how people thought it was a mature decision on Bay's part.

Maybe it is a generational thing. Maybe people in the generation that came after mine do not feel this is a big deal, but to me, it is HUGE.

Bay had no business going to dinner with Tank and his dad. Bay didn't owe Tank anything, and even if she did, going to dinner with him doesn't do anything to remedy that.

Going to dinner with Tank and his dad gives Tank the wrong idea.

Going to dinner with Tank and his dad sends Tank mixed messages.

Going to dinner with Tank and his dad is unfair to her current boyfriend Emmett.

Why does Bay believe that it is okay to beg for a friendship from Tank, someone she has cheated on and dumped? Why does she think that makes Tank feel any better? It doesn't. Being friends with Tank, when he wants more than friendship, only makes Bay feel better.

Why would Bay do that to Tank or to Emmett? Does she just not see it?

Once Bay made her choice to be with Emmett, her primary loyalty was TO Emmett. And I am not just saying that because I love Emmett. If Bay had chosen Tank, I would feel that her primary loyalty should be to him. Well, to herself, first, and then to her partner, but definitely not to her ex, never to her ex.

And I don't understand, when the episode aired, all of the people posting how immature Emmett was being in this situation and how mature Bay was being.

I don't have a problem calling Emmett immature when he is immature. For instance, in Season 1B, when Emmett asked Bay to see her email correspondence with Ty, that was immature. In fact, Emmett crossed a line with that request, and he was all kinds of wrong. That was horrible.

But Bay was wrong to try to make amends with Tank. Perhaps the gesture seems noble, selfless, and good, but it is not. One cannot (and should not) try to have two incompatible things, and that is exactly what Bay was doing. Dating Emmett and befriending her ex-boyfriend (who still wants to be dating her) are two incompatible things.

I'm not all that big on conventional wisdom, but sometimes there are reasons why certain choices are frowned upon. In my generation, being friends with an ex who you dumped for your current boyfriend is not considered wise.

Being friendly? Sure. Be friendly all you want. But to actually BE friends and go out to dinner and party together? No. It's better not done.

And moving forward to the dorm party, even if Bay and Tank had fallen asleep on the bed, before anything else could happen, so much of what DID happen between Bay and Tank that night was still wrong.

How could Bay walk away from Emmett on the beach, asking him in disbelief, "You still think that I cheated on you with Tank? That's what you think?"

Why doesn't Bay see that she absolutely cheated on Emmett emotionally? Doesn't she recognize it? Why doesn't Bay apologize to Emmett for that?

Does her generation not believe there is such a thing as emotional cheating?

When Emmett cheated on Bay, he apologized profusely. Bay has yet to apologize to Emmett for the emotional cheating. I just don't get it.

If Bay did apologize (not for the sex, but for everything else) maybe it would heal some of what is broken between them.

When this episode first aired, I could let it go. But now that people are posting how wrong Emmett is to break up with Bay, and how mature and right Bay has been in every decision, it bothers me.

And some people are not just calling Emmett wrong. Some of them are calling Emmett horrible names and acting as though he is the most despicable character on the planet. That's ridiculous, and it's widespread and rampant.

I don't get it.

Emmett could have handled some things better, this past year. That's true. But it bothers me that so many people see Bay's actions as this pillar of maturity and talk about how far she has come since the pilot episode, and then, in the next breath, call Emmett stunted. I see a lot of growth on Emmett's part.

And I actually believe Bay was more mature in the pilot episode than now. Something has caused her to doubt herself and second guess her convictions. Perhaps it was Emmett's cheating. In that respect, maybe Emmett is to blame for everything.

It's as if Emmett will never recover from that one mistake. Even Emmett believes Bay still holds that against him, as evidenced in his script for the movie short.

But back to the episode, I hate this conversation between Bay & Emmett, because in my mind, to my way of thinking, Bay's logic is flawed:
BAY: (Sighs) Poor Travis. I know how he feels. You and me and Mary Beth should take him out for some fun.

EMMETT: Good idea. But first you and I should celebrate. You want to grab a burger tonight?

BAY: Uh, I can't. I'm having dinner with Tank and his dad. Don't freak out.

EMMETT: Why?

BAY: He's telling his dad that he de-pledged his fraternity. It's a big deal.

EMMETT: So is your boyfriend getting into Gallaudet.

BAY: Of course it is. But I did something awful to Tank. And the least I can do is be there when he tells his dad that he's de-pledging.

EMMETT: He can't find anyone else?

BAY: He doesn't have a lot of friends right now. Emmett, it is one dinner. And it's going to be boring and awkward. And I owe it to him. We both do.

EMMETT: Leave me out of it.
And as much as that decision doesn't sit right with me, the worst one of all, the mother of all bad decisions, is taking the fall for Daphne.

I still see people talking about how Bay's decision to take the fall for Daphne is Christlike and good.

Uh, NO. Lying, breaking the law, sacrificing your future is NOT Christlike and good.

Standing beside Daphne as she paid for her crimes and tried to rebuild her life? YES, that would be Christlike and good, but not any of this other stuff.

If Bay doesn't recognize the error of her ways next season, I am going to be disappointed.

The injustice of Bay's decision to take the fall for Daphne is too much. To see people applauding Bay for it is heartbreaking.

Bay deserves better. I am glad that Emmett is not standing by Bay, at the moment. If he did, she might not ever recognize her mistake. And I want Bay to recognize that taking the fall for Daphne was a mistake.

I want that more than anything else in Season 4B.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-05-2015, 07:03 PM
  #47
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
As you know, I am not an Emmett fan at all, and him and Bay are my notp. But I can see why he got upset about her going to dinner with Tank and his dad.

With the whole Tank and the party thing, she probably just needed someone to talk to. I don't think her ex was the best person to talk to about relationship problems, but she probably thought, "oh hey we're friends and this is what friends do."

With Bay, I might not agree with her decisions, but I almost always understand why she did what she did. I don't think she did the right thing taking the fall for Daphne, but I can see why she did it: because Daphne wants to be a doctor, and in Bay's mind that was more important since she wants to be an artist. Can I just give her a huge hug or something??
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-05-2015, 07:57 PM
  #48
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
As you know, I am not an Emmett fan at all, and him and Bay are my notp. But I can see why he got upset about her going to dinner with Tank and his dad.

With the whole Tank and the party thing, she probably just needed someone to talk to. I don't think her ex was the best person to talk to about relationship problems, but she probably thought, "oh hey we're friends and this is what friends do."

With Bay, I might not agree with her decisions, but I almost always understand why she did what she did. I don't think she did the right thing taking the fall for Daphne, but I can see why she did it: because Daphne wants to be a doctor, and in Bay's mind that was more important since she wants to be an artist. Can I just give her a huge hug or something??
I agree about the huge hug! Bay should have lots of love. She has the best heart of any character ever.

I understand her decisions, too. For an 19 year old, they make perfect sense.

I just don't understand why so many people believe that her decisions are solid and mature. Maybe a lot of people sharing their thoughts about it are 19, too.

I don't think Bay has done anything evil. The apology I would like to see Bay offer Emmett is more along the lines of something like this:
I didn't think about how you would feel when I did such and such (i.e., had dinner with Tank and his dad, took the fall for Daphne without consulting you, partied with Tank, shared our problems with Tank, etc.), and I should have thought about your feelings.
That's all I would really want her to say, just to acknowledge that Emmett's feelings matter, and she should have been looking out for him.

This woman on Twitter took me to task for saying that Bay should not have taken the fall for Daphne. She said that family always comes before boyfriends and she didn't want to communicate with anyone (like me) who doesn't understand that. (The last part of her comment made me wonder why she tagged me, then. )

It was obvious that, to her, no bond runs deeper than that of sisterhood.

I disagree.

But even if I agreed, even if family should always come before boyfriends, I would think that if you are planning to move 2000 miles to live with a man, that he is now your family.

It's fine if Bay is not ready for that level of commitment with Emmett (or with any man). Bay is only nineteen. She is young. I don't think Emmett even expected Bay to make the offer to move to LA.

But since Bay and Emmett were planning to move there together, Bay should have treated Emmett like a partner. Emmett should have come before Daphne. At the very least, Bay should have told Emmett before she made her decision. She should apologize for not showing her partner that consideration.

And even if Emmett didn't exist, Bay shouldn't have been taking the fall for Daphne.

When Bay backed out of their plan, I think, on some level, Emmett understood that she wasn't ready, that taking the fall for Daphne was something of a convenient excuse.

Because if Bay had really wanted to go to LA with Emmett, nothing would have stopped her.

And that's okay, that she didn't want to go. It's a big move. It's understandable that Bay would get cold feet.

But it's not really fair of Bay to be upset with Emmett, now that he has cold feet about her making the move. Bay chickened out first, and she only really got up her courage to make the move, when she felt Emmett slipping away.

I just don't think it's all Emmett's fault, and I am not saying that anyone here is saying that it is, but out there, in social media, nearly everyone is acting like Emmett is the most contemptible person to ever walk on the planet, and he is not.

Emmett is just a normal guy, and if Bay looks at her actions, she will understand how things shifted for Emmett, and why he doesn't feel sure about a forever with her anymore.

It's understandable. Bay needs to recognize her part in it. And yeah, Bay needs lots of hugs, too. I hope she gets them from someone who makes her feel safe and loved. I worry about her, especially because she has sacrificed so much for others.

I do wish people would stop saying that Emmett's love wasn't good enough, though. Emmett's love was great.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-05-2015, 08:36 PM
  #49
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
See, to me, family comes before boyfriends. I get not everyone shares that view, and that's fine. I don't think I'd do what Bay did for Daphne for any of my family members, however!

I do agree that she should have talked to Emmett before taking the fall for Daphne, but I'm guessing it was a spur-of-the-moment decision and she didn't have time to talk to him before going to the station. Like I don't think the plan entered her mind until she hopped in the car with Daphne after graduation.

I wonder if she would have even moved to LA, even if she hadn't taken the fall for Daphne. I mean, I actually thought she was going to, until the last few minutes of season 3. She had a pretty good plan. But I also understand that once said plans become reality, it can be a little scary and you might be having second thoughts.

And I don't like Emmett, but I don't think he's the worst character onscreen. *cough*frozen's hans*cough* *wheeze*mother gothel*wheeze*

BTW, I hope you don't mind, I just followed you on Twitter.
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-05-2015, 08:59 PM
  #50
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
See, to me, family comes before boyfriends. I get not everyone shares that view, and that's fine. I don't think I'd do what Bay did for Daphne for any of my family members, however!

I do agree that she should have talked to Emmett before taking the fall for Daphne, but I'm guessing it was a spur-of-the-moment decision and she didn't have time to talk to him before going to the station. Like I don't think the plan entered her mind until she hopped in the car with Daphne after graduation.

I wonder if she would have even moved to LA, even if she hadn't taken the fall for Daphne. I mean, I actually thought she was going to, until the last few minutes of season 3. She had a pretty good plan. But I also understand that once said plans become reality, it can be a little scary and you might be having second thoughts.

And I don't like Emmett, but I don't think he's the worst character onscreen. *cough*frozen's hans*cough* *wheeze*mother gothel*wheeze*

BTW, I hope you don't mind, I just followed you on Twitter.
I love that you followed me on Twitter! Thank you

I have fun on Twitter. I only use it for Switched at Birth. I will follow you, too!

Out of curiosity, do you believe family comes before boyfriends, even if you are living with the boyfriend?

I am not all that religious, but I do believe it is important for couples “to love, honor, and cherish—forsaking all others—for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, ’til death do us part.”

And if you are living with another person, as your mate, if you are sharing sexual intercourse and becoming "one flesh" with the person, then that person needs to come first, before your parents or your siblings.

So I would somewhat agree with you, if it was just a matter of Bay dating Emmett during her senior year of high school. But Bay & Emmett had graduated, and she was preparing to move 2000 miles to live with him, as a mate.

In that instance, I think Bay should have put Emmett first.

Or if Bay couldn't or didn't want to put Emmett first, then I think it is fair that Emmett took that as an indication of her level of commitment to their relationship.

Personally, I don't think Bay would have gone to LA, even if she didn't need to help Daphne.

Daphne was a convenient reason for Bay not to go, and Bay was scared. (I don't know that for sure, of course, but that is my intuition. I got the feeling that Emmett sensed that, too, with some things he said to Bay when he made his surprise visit.) And that's okay. It's perfectly understandable for Bay to have cold feet.

I have another question for you. Is your primary reason for disliking Emmett because he cheated? Or are there other important reasons.

The character of Emmett isn't perfect, by any means, but I wouldn't want anyone to be perfect, so that doesn't bother me.

Emmett has his flaws, but I love his flaws. I pretty much love everything about him and everything for which he stands. I get him, including his decision in the mid-season finale.

Emmett symbolizes my values, pretty much straight down the line.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-06-2015, 05:04 PM
  #51
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
Quote:
Or if Bay couldn't or didn't want to put Emmett first, then I think it is fair that Emmett took that as an indication of her level of commitment to their relationship.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, do you believe family comes before boyfriends, even if you are living with the boyfriend?
I think the boyfriend, if he were living with me, would be considered family. Obviously I think it depends on the situation. For example, if my boyfriend were in the hospital but my family were having a huge dinner together, I would put my boyfriend first. But if the situation were reversed, I'd go be with my relative in the hospital. I also think "fiancee" or "husband" carries more weight than "boyfriend."

As I said, I don't believe Bay thought about taking the fall for Daphne the entire day, I think it was a split-second decision. Or maybe not quite that fast, but I don't think she had time to talk to Emmett. I get why he was mad, I might react the same way, although I'd try to understand why she did it. But I think it's fitting her Bay's character, helping the underdog. I think it was foolish, but I can see why she did it. But Bay needs to see that she's important, too.

Quote:
I have another question for you. Is your primary reason for disliking Emmett because he cheated? Or are there other important reasons.
Honestly, the fact that he cheated is a huge factor. The fact that he and Bay cheated on Tank and he didn't seem as bothered by it, is another issue. I don't care if he thinks he and Bay are "meant to be" cheating isn't okay by any means. I also don't like how he's dealt with stuff recently -- I get he's 19, but I think Bay is more mature than he is.

I don't mean to sound like I hate him. I don't. He's just not one of my favorite characters on SaB. He's never been my favorite, even in the beginning, but lately I just do not like him.
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-06-2015, 05:49 PM
  #52
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
I think the boyfriend, if he were living with me, would be considered family. Obviously I think it depends on the situation. For example, if my boyfriend were in the hospital but my family were having a huge dinner together, I would put my boyfriend first. But if the situation were reversed, I'd go be with my relative in the hospital. I also think "fiancee" or "husband" carries more weight than "boyfriend."
I agree with every word you have said here.

At the point Bay and Emmett graduated high school, I saw them as a "family" because they were moving 2000 miles away to live together.

To me, Bay's plans with Emmett should have come before Daphne.

But if Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett (and I guess, in all honesty, Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett), then putting Daphne first doesn't have anything to do with Emmett.

Bay still shouldn't have done it, though, because she betrayed herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
As I said, I don't believe Bay thought about taking the fall for Daphne the entire day, I think it was a split-second decision. Or maybe not quite that fast, but I don't think she had time to talk to Emmett. I get why he was mad, I might react the same way, although I'd try to understand why she did it. But I think it's fitting her Bay's character, helping the underdog. I think it was foolish, but I can see why she did it. But Bay needs to see that she's important, too.
I didn't sense any anger on Emmett's part towards Bay.

He seemed scared for her. He seemed hurt that she deserted their plans.

Later, when he showed her the second timeline, and he was preparing to leave her, I will say he appeared frustrated with her decision.

But I never sensed any anger from Emmett directed at anyone but Daphne, and in my mind, Daphne deserved it.

Allowing Bay to take the fall for her crimes was an INCREDIBLY selfish thing for Daphne to do. I'm glad both Toby and Emmett expressed their anger at her for that.

I sure do hope Bay sees that she's important, too, this summer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
Honestly, the fact that he cheated is a huge factor. The fact that he and Bay cheated on Tank and he didn't seem as bothered by it, is another issue. I don't care if he thinks he and Bay are "meant to be" cheating isn't okay by any means. I also don't like how he's dealt with stuff recently -- I get he's 19, but I think Bay is more mature than he is.

I don't mean to sound like I hate him. I don't. He's just not one of my favorite characters on SaB. He's never been my favorite, even in the beginning, but lately I just do not like him.
Emmett refused to cheat on Mandy with Bay, though, even though he really, really wanted Bay. He didn't allow Bay's kiss to continue.

And Emmett refused to cheat on Bay with Skye. He stopped that kiss immediately.

So how do you feel about Bay cheating on Tank with Emmett? And how do you feel about Bay cheating on Emmett with Tank? *

What makes Bay more mature than Emmett in your mind?

* I don't believe Bay was raped. But even if a person does believe Bay was raped, Bay most definitely emotionally cheated on Emmett with Tank.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-06-2015, 07:29 PM
  #53
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
Disclaimer: I have not watched the season four episodes since they aired and my memory is very bad. And I also need to rematch the entire series ASAP. But that's a given, this show is great.

Quote:
But if Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett (and I guess, in all honesty, Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett), then putting Daphne first doesn't have anything to do with Emmett.

Bay still shouldn't have done it, though, because she betrayed herself.
I honestly thought she was going to go to LA with Emmett. Like if Daphne didn't exist, I would have thought she'd go. Although if Daphne didn't exist, Emmett and Bay would have never met...

Quote:
Allowing Bay to take the fall for her crimes was an INCREDIBLY selfish thing for Daphne to do. I'm glad both Toby and Emmett expressed their anger at her for that.

I sure do hope Bay sees that she's important, too, this summer.
It was so incredibly selfish, I can't even... I didn't like Daphne by this point anyway, but if I had, I'm sure I wouldn't like her anymore after that. After Daphne agreed with what Bay "did" Bay looked shocked, and I interpreted it as her not actually thinking Daphne would go along with her.

I'm glad Toby and Emmett were mad at her, and I wish more characters would be angry with her, too. Like oh I don't know, John. Girl gets off way too easy.

Quote:
What makes Bay more mature than Emmett in your mind?
The thing that comes to my mind, maybe because it's so recent, is the fact that he put Bay's personal experience into his movie. I don't care if he was affected by it and therefore he attempted to justify it when Bay talked to him about it. It wasn't his experience to put onscreen. It was way too personal, he even told Sky he didn't want Bay to see it because it was so personal (yeah, personal for her) and at the very least, he should have talked to Bay before he did it. Hopefully he would have listened if she said no, but I don't that happening... I see it as him thinking what happened with Tank was her fault and he was using his movie to get back at her or something. I get him needing to process his feelings, I just don't think a film that will be seen by strangers without her consent.

And also, his line about how "relationships should just work" didn't help. It shouldn't be fighting all the time, true, but adults work at their relationships.

I couldn't help but think that Bay looked crushed after her and Emmett ended things and he looked like he had much better things to do, maybe that's my opinion.

Quote:
So how do you feel about Bay cheating on Tank with Emmett? And how do you feel about Bay cheating on Emmett with Tank?
So I took a sexual assault counseling course when I was in college. We learned that if anyone has any amount of alcohol in them, they are unable to consent, and that makes it rape. Tank was also intoxicated, so that's where it gets fuzzy.

I see what happened with Tank as rape and personally do not see that as her cheating on Emmett. From the flashbacks, she was way too out of it to give consent. To me, cheating is a conscious decision, and I don't see that decision in her deciding to sleep with Tank. But again, Tank had also been drinking (although he didn't seem as out of it as Bay) so it's not all black and white.
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-06-2015, 09:14 PM
  #54
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
Disclaimer: I have not watched the season four episodes since they aired and my memory is very bad. And I also need to rematch the entire series ASAP. But that's a given, this show is great.
Isn't it?

I'm so glad you've joined our discussions here!

You have helped me figure out my thoughts. I've really struggled with all of these conflicting feelings after Season 4A. It was such a tough season to get through emotionally.

Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
I honestly thought she was going to go to LA with Emmett. Like if Daphne didn't exist, I would have thought she'd go. Although if Daphne didn't exist, Emmett and Bay would have never met...
I could see it that way. I haven't looked at it that way yet, but now, I will give it some thought.

I just never thought Bay really wanted to go to LA with Emmett. To me, if she did want to go, nothing would have stopped her.

All along, I believe Bay expected her parents or her financial situation would keep her in KC. Then, when neither of those things stopped her from going, Bay quickly found another way to postpone the move (Daphne).

I do wonder why Bay pushed Emmett so hard to go to LA, even before she made the decision to join him. Maybe it is just because she thought it would be a good fit for him.

I don't think Bay was really happy with their relationship the second time. She definitely took Emmett for granted and treated their connection rather cavalierly. Perhaps Emmett made the mistake of being at Bay's beck and call for so long that she failed to properly appreciate him. That would be understandable, with the way he made himself subservient to her, after his cheating.

For a long time, I have been thinking that Bay was too scared to go to LA with Emmett. There's this huge part of me, even now, that really believes Bay is 100% relieved to be off the hook and not need to go to LA. Sure, she is hurt. She has mixed feelings about it. But there's this part of me that believes Bay is glad Emmett made this decision, because she wasn't ready to make the move. I even think we will see her character express gratitude to Emmett, one day, for that.

There's this line, when Emmett returns for his surprise visit, and he tells Bay, "You broke our plans once, what is to say you won't break them again?" To me, that line says a lot. Emmett realized that it wasn't Daphne. If Bay really wanted to go to LA with him, nothing would have stopped her. In Emmett's mind, Bay didn't want to go. And although Bay had conflicting feelings, ultimately, I think Emmett is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
It was so incredibly selfish, I can't even... I didn't like Daphne by this point anyway, but if I had, I'm sure I wouldn't like her anymore after that. After Daphne agreed with what Bay "did" Bay looked shocked, and I interpreted it as her not actually thinking Daphne would go along with her.

I'm glad Toby and Emmett were mad at her, and I wish more characters would be angry with her, too. Like oh I don't know, John. Girl gets off way too easy.
I definitely agree with all of that.

I'm glad that you saw Bay's shocked look, too. I completely saw that.

I wish more people would have seen it.

I don't think Bay thought Daphne would go along with her. It's such a betrayal of their friendship that Daphne did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
The thing that comes to my mind, maybe because it's so recent, is the fact that he put Bay's personal experience into his movie. I don't care if he was affected by it and therefore he attempted to justify it when Bay talked to him about it. It wasn't his experience to put onscreen. It was way too personal, he even told Sky he didn't want Bay to see it because it was so personal (yeah, personal for her) and at the very least, he should have talked to Bay before he did it. Hopefully he would have listened if she said no, but I don't that happening... I see it as him thinking what happened with Tank was her fault and he was using his movie to get back at her or something. I get him needing to process his feelings, I just don't think a film that will be seen by strangers without her consent.
I definitely don't think Emmett did it to get back at Bay.

He should have talked to her about it first, though. I'm glad he apologized for that.

That "personal" line sure does illustrate how far apart they both are. Emmett didn't share anything about his decision with Bay, because by that point, the two of them were not sharing anything at all.

I didn't get the impression that Emmett mentioned the word rape in the movie. Most shorts average five minutes in length.

Emmett started his story with the day the couple first meet on the beach. He ended it with the man questioning if the woman cheated on him, because she never got over his sleeping with "Sierra" so long ago. I don't see this short as being one that delved into Bay's personal story with Tank.

I know Bay felt as though Emmett had invaded her privacy and shared her story, and Emmett DID betray the intimacy he once shared with Bay, by putting their story out there.

But to me, that story is so generic, that I just don't see it as being something anyone would associate with Bay, other than Bay. (And Skye, but only because Emmett confided all of the other details to Skye. But that's no different than Bay sharing her intimacies with Tank.) Both Bay and Emmett have betrayed their intimacy with each other for a long time now. Bay started the betrayal, by sharing personal information with Tank, and Emmett continued it by opening up to Skye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
And also, his line about how "relationships should just work" didn't help. It shouldn't be fighting all the time, true, but adults work at their relationships.
Yeah, a lot of people were upset with Emmett for that line.

"But we shouldn't have to try to make it work."

It's interesting. It didn't bother me, because I took his words to mean "we shouldn't have to force our relationship to work" which sounded reasonable, in my opinion.

But if people interpreted the line to mean that we shouldn't have to work on our relationship, then they must have thought Emmett had gone stark raving mad, because of course, relationships require work.

I do find it interesting that in the opening episode of Season 3B, Bay told Daphne, "Tank and I never really clicked like that. I kept trying to make it work, and it never did."

So on some level, Bay has to understand that a person can try and try and try to make a relationship work, and sometimes, two people just don't click.

To me, that's what Emmett was saying to Bay on the beach. He was saying that they have been trying to make it work for the last year, and they just haven't been clicking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
I couldn't help but think that Bay looked crushed after her and Emmett ended things and he looked like he had much better things to do, maybe that's my opinion.
Oh, absolutely. I do agree with that completely.

Emmett has found his niche in film school. He is really happy and able to totally throw himself into this art form that fascinates and compels him.

Plus, he has found a woman, in Skye, who makes him feel wonderful and shares the same interests with him.

Emmett has all of his needs met, and Bay is returning home to KC, as a convicted felon with no plans for school, no job, few friends. Bay needs to make some better choices for herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
So I took a sexual assault counseling course when I was in college. We learned that if anyone has any amount of alcohol in them, they are unable to consent, and that makes it rape. Tank was also intoxicated, so that's where it gets fuzzy.

I see what happened with Tank as rape and personally do not see that as her cheating on Emmett. From the flashbacks, she was way too out of it to give consent. To me, cheating is a conscious decision, and I don't see that decision in her deciding to sleep with Tank. But again, Tank had also been drinking (although he didn't seem as out of it as Bay) so it's not all black and white.
Yeah, I am grateful to Switched at Birth for calling my attention to the ways that laws and policies are being written. I am looking for ways to effect change, because I disagree. I believe if a person chooses to drink alcohol, then the law should allow that person to consent.

Society does not let intoxicated people off the hook for any other choices that they make while drunk, so I do not understand why society would absolve people for this choice. But over the course of human history, there have been many bad laws written. It shouldn't surprise me. If you believe the law is a good one, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

You shared how you feel about Bay and Tank's sexual encounter, but how do you feel about my other questions?
  1. So how do you feel about Bay cheating on Tank with Emmett?

  2. And how do you feel about Bay emotionally cheating on Emmett with Tank (going to dinner with him and his dad, sharing information about her aneurysm, telling Tank about her relationship problems with Emmett, letting Tank comfort her by sitting on his lap, asking Tank to look at the stars on the ceiling with her, while she was in bed, etc.)?
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:33 AM
  #55
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
Quote:
I'm so glad you've joined our discussions here!

You have helped me figure out my thoughts. I've really struggled with all of these conflicting feelings after Season 4A. It was such a tough season to get through emotionally.

Thank you!
Aw, I'm so glad I joined the discussions here! Even though we disagree about a lot of things, it's so nice talking to you and everyone else on here!

Quote:
I just never thought Bay really wanted to go to LA with Emmett. To me, if she did want to go, nothing would have stopped her.

All along, I believe Bay expected her parents or her financial situation would keep her in KC. Then, when neither of those things stopped her from going, Bay quickly found another way to postpone the move (Daphne).
See, looking back at the season now, I agree with you 100%.

But when the episodes were actually airing, I thought for sure she was going to go with Emmett.

Quote:
I do wonder why Bay pushed Emmett so hard to go to LA, even before she made the decision to join him. Maybe it is just because she thought it would be a good fit for him.
I think she pushed him to go because she knew it would be a good fit for him. I can see it being a good thing, him going to LA.

Quote:
I don't think Bay was really happy with their relationship the second time. She definitely took Emmett for granted and treated their connection rather cavalierly. Perhaps Emmett made the mistake of being at Bay's beck and call for so long that she failed to properly appreciate him. That would be understandable, with the way he made himself subservient to her, after his cheating.
Yeah, I agree with this. I'm going to ignore the whole cheating thing for a second; it seemed like they had a much better connection way back in the first season with the art and stuff.

Quote:
I do find it interesting that in the opening episode of Season 3B, Bay told Daphne, "Tank and I never really clicked like that. I kept trying to make it work, and it never did."

So on some level, Bay has to understand that a person can try and try and try to make a relationship work, and sometimes, two people just don't click.

To me, that's what Emmett was saying to Bay on the beach. He was saying that they have been trying to make it work for the last year, and they just haven't been clicking.
That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought about it like that. I do agree that they hadn't been clicking for the last year. I don't think a relationship is easy 100% of the time, but if you have to force it, that's not good.

Quote:
Society does not let intoxicated people off the hook for any other choices that they make while drunk, so I do not understand why society would absolve people for this choice. But over the course of human history, there have been many bad laws written. It shouldn't surprise me. If you believe the law is a good one, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
This is something I've never really thought about, how society doesn't let people off the hook for other things they may do while drunk. I do think the law is good, because I took that class and have watched way too SVU.

Quote:
You shared how you feel about Bay and Tank's sexual encounter, but how do you feel about my other questions?
So how do you feel about Bay cheating on Tank with Emmett?

And how do you feel about Bay emotionally cheating on Emmett with Tank (going to dinner with him and his dad, sharing information about her aneurysm, telling Tank about her relationship problems with Emmett, letting Tank comfort her by sitting on his lap, asking Tank to look at the stars on the ceiling with her, while she was in bed, etc.)?
Oh, my mistake, I misread that first one the first time!

I don't think Bay should have cheated on Tank with Emmett, it was so wrong. I know she didn't go to meet him in the field and plan to have sex, but it's still wrong. IMO, she should have stopped it, broke up with Tank, then slept with Emmett. I like that she felt guilty for cheating on Tank with Emmett, I felt like he was all "we're meant to be" and stuff, and that doesn't fly.

I personally put physically cheating on someone above emotionally cheating. But I also think what she did with Tank is wrong, sharing all the information like that. Her and Emmett hadn't been getting along for awhile, and I'm sure she thought of Tank as a friend and friends tell each other things. But Tank is her ex, one who still had feelings for her. I think the whole bed and stars thing could be attributed to her drinking, I don't see that scene happening if she were sober. Did Tank comforting her while she's in his lap happen at the party, too?

If Bay had been talking to someone who wasn't her ex, say Daphne, would you still see it as emotionally cheating on Emmett?
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-08-2015, 06:56 PM
  #56
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
Aw, I'm so glad I joined the discussions here! Even though we disagree about a lot of things, it's so nice talking to you and everyone else on here!
You have made me feel so good. Thank you!

This episode, It Isn't What You Think, certainly sets the ball rolling down an awful path for Bay.

This episode includes several pivotal moments:
  • Bay chooses to put her attempt to rekindle a friendship with Tank, ahead of her connection to, Emmett.

  • Daphne chooses to vandalize a construction site with Nacho, causing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars in damages, while Bay is out to dinner with Tank.

  • Once Bay sees that her friendship with Tank is securely restored, Bay continues to send Tank a mixed message, by confiding her fears to him about her potential to develop aneurysms, something she never shared with Emmett.

  • Although the scene was cut from this episode, Bay further weakened her connection to Emmett, when she didn't even bother to reply to his texts that evening, after her dinner with Tank. Lizzy Weiss tweeted a snippet of the script, illustrating the cut scene:
    When Bay & Emmett arrived at Carlton the morning after her dinner with Tank, Bay apologized for not answering any of Emmett's texts that evening, and Emmett joked with Bay, asking where he should send the wedding gift for her and Tank's upcoming nuptials. Emmett even asked Bay to share with him, about her weird morning, and about what had been bothering her for days, and Bay still didn't tell Emmett anything about the possible aneurysm, although she had gone to see a doctor about it THAT morning, and although she had already shared the information with Tank.

    Emmett did tell Bay about his acceptance to USC though.

    I really wish Bay had been sharing things with Emmett, back then. This episode is where they got off track, as a couple, and they never completely recovered from their disconnect, then Bay took the fall for Daphne, and that decision added to their disconnect, even more.

This episode is when everything turned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
See, looking back at the season now, I agree with you 100%.

But when the episodes were actually airing, I thought for sure she was going to go with Emmett.
I think Bay thought she was going with Emmett, too. She seemed determined to make it happen.

But if Bay had truly wanted to go with Emmett, she would have gone. She wouldn't have let Daphne, or anything, stand in her way.

A part of Bay must not have been ready to leave her home and family just yet. She must not have been ready to make that kind of complete commitment to Emmett.

It's understandable, she just turned 19. I don't think Bay would have felt a need to be the one to step in and take the fall for Daphne, if Bay had been ready to let her family go. If Bay had been ready to start her own family with Emmett, then she would not have felt a need to be the one to rescue Daphne.

Bay would have let someone else tend to Daphne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
I think she pushed him to go because she knew it would be a good fit for him. I can see it being a good thing, him going to LA.
Yeah, I agree with that. Bay knows Emmett well, and she seems to know that film school is what he is meant to do.

Emmett certainly seems to have found something he loves doing. He seems completely fulfilled throwing himself into that world.

I think back to Emmett's desire to drop out of high school, during their sophomore year, and his claim, to Bay, that he didn't need to study.

I remember Bay's words to Emmett:
Maybe because that's how you graduate, so you can go to college and you can work somewhere other than a mini-mart, while you wait for your photography career to take off.
Now, Emmett has graduated high school. He has been accepted by two prestigious universities. He is attending one of the best film schools in the entire country, USC, and he is rocking it, even as a freshman. Plus, film is absolutely his passion.

And Bay has graduated high school, but then, she made an awful decision. Bay spent the last year serving a sentence for Daphne's crimes. She was rejected by Pratt. Bay hasn't applied to any other colleges, and all applications, whether for school or employment, ask about a criminal record.

I don't want Bay to end up working at a mini-mart, for the rest of her life.

One day, I really hope Bay says to Daphne, "You should not have allowed me to take the fall for you." And even more importantly, I hope, one day, Bay realizes she should not have offered to take the fall for Daphne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
Yeah, I agree with this. I'm going to ignore the whole cheating thing for a second; it seemed like they had a much better connection way back in the first season with the art and stuff.
Yes. I agree.

Emmett's cheating caused a lot of problems for them. I really believe that the reason Bay & Emmett did not have a good connection during their second relationship is because Bay still could not get past Emmett's cheating, not completely. I believe that is why Bay did not trust Emmett enough to share anything private or intimate with him over the last year. I believe that is why she looked for other causes to put before him, because she didn't want to put him first anymore. It was too scary to make him that important in her life again. And I believe that is why Bay could not let go of Tank. He was her security blanket, and Bay felt like she needed a security blanket, in order to take a chance with a cheater, like Emmett.

On the beach, Emmett was right. They shouldn't have to try to make it work. It should just work. And it didn't work, so they needed to let each other go.

In an interview, Lizzy Weiss said that once Bay cheated on Tank, she understood what Emmett had done, and Bay was able to put the whole cheating thing behind her. But I don't believe she was able to put it behind her.

Yes, Bay understood that you could really care about someone (as she did with Tank) and she understood that you could cheat on the person, without meaning to hurt him. In that respect, I believe it opened a door to Bay dating Emmett again.

But Bay knew that she never loved Tank in that way, so I think she was still wondering how Emmett could have cheated on her, if he loved her the way that she loves him.

Now, if instead of looking at it as a rape, if Bay would just open her mind to the possibility that she cheated on Emmett, when she had sex with Tank, then she would see that a person can totally love another person (as she does with Emmett) and that person can still be so insecure and confused that something can happen (like it did between her and Tank AND like it did between Simone and Emmett).

I think that knowledge, if Bay will admit to it, could be what allows Bay & Emmett to get it right, if they give their relationship a third go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought about it like that. I do agree that they hadn't been clicking for the last year. I don't think a relationship is easy 100% of the time, but if you have to force it, that's not good.
I've gone back and watched their breakup scene on the beach umpteen times, and I believe that is what Emmett is saying. He is telling Bay that they should not have to struggle as hard as they have been struggling. He is saying that their relationship should not have to be forced, in order to make it work.

It should just work.

Emmett was not scared or unwilling to DO the work, but it should work. Since it wasn't working, Emmett wasn't willing to force it, not with so much at stake. He has his entire future riding on this college education. To Emmett's way of thinking, their entire future is riding on it. It's not like Bay, with her felony conviction, is in a good position to support them.

I went back and watched the episode Protect Me From What I Want yesterday. That's the episode that aired on Valentine's Day 2012, where Bay & Emmett declare their love for each other, for the first time. What Emmett wants, what Emmett desperately needs, is a happy family. Bay has always had that. Emmett hasn't.

What Bay has always wanted, at least in the past, is to belong. Bay has wanted someone to choose her, to put her first. But Emmett did that, from the moment he made his mistake with Simone, Emmett recognized it, apologized for it, and put Bay first, from that moment forward. But I don't think that was enough, because Bay didn't seem really happy or connected to Emmett, during their second relationship. I don't think they could recover from Emmett's original mistake.

If they are both struggling to the point of unhappiness in trying to connect, and I believe that they were, then Emmett is right. Now is not the time for Bay to move to LA. They missed their window of opportunity.

Perhaps what Bay is going through with Tank will help her understand that Emmett did love her, despite his cheating on her with Simone. I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
This is something I've never really thought about, how society doesn't let people off the hook for other things they may do while drunk. I do think the law is good, because I took that class and have watched way too SVU.
I can understand that perspective, but I disagree.

I feel strongly that if a person makes the choice to drink, then, whether male or female, the person should be responsible for their choices while drunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
Oh, my mistake, I misread that first one the first time!

I don't think Bay should have cheated on Tank with Emmett, it was so wrong. I know she didn't go to meet him in the field and plan to have sex, but it's still wrong. IMO, she should have stopped it, broke up with Tank, then slept with Emmett. I like that she felt guilty for cheating on Tank with Emmett, I felt like he was all "we're meant to be" and stuff, and that doesn't fly.
Emmett felt guilty for cheating on Bay with Simone. I guess I don't understand why you feel Bay is mature and Emmett is immature, when they both did the same thing.

But in full disclosure, I do not believe cheating is a terrible thing. Of course, it is preferable not to do it, and I have been lucky and strong. I never have. But I don't think awful things about the people who do, and a lot of people do cheat.

Heck, most of our Presidents have cheated on their wives. So many people cheat.

I just read some cool stuff from Anne Lamott tonight. She's a great writer. Her words are not specifically about cheating, but they do explain why I don't feel it is such a bad thing:
# 8. Families; hard, hard, hard, no matter how cherished and astonishing they may also be. (See #1 again.) At family gatherings where you suddenly feel homicidal or suicidal, remember that in half of all cases, it's a miracle that this annoying person even lived. Earth is Forgiveness School. You might as well start at the dinner table. That way, you can do this work in comfortable pants. When Blake said that we are here to learn to endure the beams of love, he knew that your family would be an intimate part of this, even as you want to run screaming for your cute little life. But that you are up to it. You can do it, Cinderellie. You will be amazed.

# 1. All truth is a paradox. Life is a precious unfathomably beautiful gift; and it is impossible here, on the incarnational side of things. It has been a very bad match for those of us who were born extremely sensitive. It is so hard and weird that we wonder if we are being punked. And life is filled with heartbreaking sweetness and beauty, floods and babies and acne and Mozart, all swirled together.

# 4. Everyone is screwed up, broken, clingy, and scared, even the people who seem to have it more or less together. They are much more like you than you would believe. So try not to compare your insides to their outsides. Also, you can't save, fix or rescue any of them, or get any of them sober. But radical self-care is quantum, and radiates out into the atmosphere, like a little fresh air. It is a huge gift to the world. When people respond by saying, "Well, isn't she full of herself," smile obliquely, like Mona Lisa, and make both of you a nice cup of tea.
So life is hard, people are precious--it's a miracle we even exist, and we are all screwed up. To me, when mistakes are made, like cheating, we need, I need, to forgive completely, with a heart full of love, and I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
I personally put physically cheating on someone above emotionally cheating. But I also think what she did with Tank is wrong, sharing all the information like that. Her and Emmett hadn't been getting along for awhile, and I'm sure she thought of Tank as a friend and friends tell each other things. But Tank is her ex, one who still had feelings for her. I think the whole bed and stars thing could be attributed to her drinking, I don't see that scene happening if she were sober. Did Tank comforting her while she's in his lap happen at the party, too?
Again, humans lie and humans cheat (both physically and emotionally), and I love humans, so I don't see it as the end of the world.

Personally, emotional cheating would sting me a little more than physical cheating, because I pride myself on being someone that my partner can open up to emotionally and trust, but ultimately, all that really matters to me, is that my partner's needs are met, both emotionally and physically, however he needs to meet them.

As for Bay sitting on Tank's lap, that was because she was drunk, too.

So do you excuse any choice Bay made while drunk?

To you, does the drinking completely absolve Bay of sharing things with her ex-boyfriend Tank, that she should not have shared while she was in a relationship with Emmett.

If a man drank, and had a girl sit on his lap, putting his hands on her inner thighs, would his drinking absolve him from cheating, too?

Or do you just believe it is women who are absolved of poor decision making while drunk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
If Bay had been talking to someone who wasn't her ex, say Daphne, would you still see it as emotionally cheating on Emmett?
To me, Bay sharing the information with Daphne would be breaking a confidence with Emmett.

In that case, Bay would be sharing information that Emmett expected would remain private, just between him and Bay, as a token of their intimacy.

It would hurt the trust between Bay & Emmett, for sure, but not as much as if Bay shared the same information with Tank.

Tank is a person with whom Bay shares some romantic and sexual feelings, and he is a person who still feels MANY romantic and sexual feelings for her. That's what makes Bay sharing the information with Tank emotional cheating, and not simply the breaking of a confidence.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-08-2015, 08:17 PM
  #57
Extreme Fan
 
lavitaebella's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,811
Quote:
You have made me feel so good. Thank you!
This makes me happy, I love making others happy.

Quote:
This episode is when everything turned.
I hadn't realized that this is the episode that's kind of the beginning of the end for Emmett and Bay, but I guess it is. Although, I think the beginning of the end is when they got back together. I agree with you, I don't think she ever got over his cheating, even though she said she did.

Quote:
And Bay has graduated high school, but then, she made an awful decision. Bay spent the last year serving a sentence for Daphne's crimes. She was rejected by Pratt. Bay hasn't applied to any other colleges, and all applications, whether for school or employment, ask about a criminal record.
I wonder if her not getting into Pratt was what made her take the fall for Daphne, in some weird way. I never got the impression she really wanted to go to LA for herself, she was just going to follow Emmett there. But not getting into her dream school must have sucked.

Quote:
I don't want Bay to end up working at a mini-mart, for the rest of her life.
I just pictured that, and the image is too sad. It better not become a reality! *looks to writers*

Quote:
I think that knowledge, if Bay will admit to it, could be what allows Bay & Emmett to get it right, if they give their relationship a third go.
I personally think a third time at a relationship is too much, even if it's a couple other than Emmett and Bay. Something must have happened to drive them apart not once, but twice.

Quote:
But in full disclosure, I do not believe cheating is a terrible thing. Of course, it is preferable not to do it, and I have been lucky and strong. I never have. But I don't think awful things about the people who do, and a lot of people do cheat.
My turn for full disclosure! (To a point, this is the internet.)

Part of the reason I'm so anti-cheating is because part of the reason my parents got a divorce is because one of them cheated on the other. They are much happier apart, and I'm not sad about their divorce, but I still do not think one of them should have cheated on the other.

I don't understand why people just don't break up with their significant others first. Obviously a marriage is a lot more complicated than people who are dating (especially if there are kids involved), but still.

Quote:
So do you excuse any choice Bay made while drunk?

To you, does the drinking completely absolve Bay of sharing things with her ex-boyfriend Tank, that she should not have shared while she was in a relationship with Emmett.

If a man drank, and had a girl sit on his lap, putting his hands on her inner thighs, would his drinking absolve him from cheating, too?

Or do you just believe it is women who are absolved of poor decision making while drunk?
I don't think being drunk is ever an excuse -- if someone had, say, crashed my car and used the "I was drunk" excuse, I wouldn't let them off the hook. Bad example, but it's been kind of a long-ish day and I don't have the energy to think of a better one.

I personally feel like what happened with Tank and Bay was sexual assault. Even if a person was drunk, that doesn't mean someone could take advantage of them -- in this case, it doesn't mean Tank could take advantage of Bay, and I don't see her sleeping with him if she had been sober. I know Tank had been drinking, too, but from the flashbacks, she had more to drink than he did. When the episode first aired, I thought someone had slipped something in Bay's drink and that's why she had trouble remembering and things like that. And yes, Bay did make the decision to drink, but she was among friends, where she probably thought she would be safe and not have to worry about anything.

Quote:
Tank is a person with whom Bay shares some romantic and sexual feelings, and he is a person who still feels MANY romantic and sexual feelings for her. That's what makes Bay sharing the information with Tank emotional cheating, and not simply the breaking of a confidence.
I never really got the impression she still had feelings for him. I know he did for her, but I thought she only wanted to be friends with him.
__________________
"I love you."
"I know."
lavitaebella is offline  
Old 04-20-2015, 03:26 AM
  #58
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavitaebella (View Post)
This makes me happy, I love making others happy.
Having you join us is wonderful!

After you bumped the Ecce Mono thread, I realized that I should go back and watch a few older episodes and do the same. It's fun to look at them with fresh eyes.

Quote:
I hadn't realized that this is the episode that's kind of the beginning of the end for Emmett and Bay, but I guess it is. Although, I think the beginning of the end is when they got back together. I agree with you, I don't think she ever got over his cheating, even though she said she did.
Yes. I am feeling that Bay still struggled with insecurity, after they reunited.

Perhaps in Bay's mind, she thought, "Well, I cheated on Tank, but I never loved Tank. Does that mean Emmett never loved me?"

That's one of the reasons I am hopeful that Bay will recognize, after cheating on Emmett, that sometimes a perfect storm of events do all converge and the unthinkable happens. Bay loves Emmett, and yet, she cheated on him. Perhaps that will allow Bay to see that Emmett loves her, too--that his cheating never meant he didn't.

Bay hasn't faced that she cheated on Emmett yet, but I hope she will.

Even if Bay chooses to look at the sexual act as a rape (and I hope she doesn't, because I see nothing positive for Bay by looking at it that way), but even if she DOES choose to look at it as a rape, I still hope that Bay faces that she cheated on Emmett with her other choices.

Bay was in a long-distance relationship with Emmett, and they were having problems. She was in a long-distance relationship with Emmett by her OWN choosing, and they were having problems.

That's NOT a time to turn to your ex-boyfriend for comfort and support. That's not a time to share all of your current relationship problems with your ex-boyfriend. That's not a time to get drunk and flirt with your ex-boyfriend. That's not a time to sit on your ex-boyfriend's lap and let him put his hands all over you.

When Bay explained to Emmett that the sex with Tank was partly her fault, too, I hope she apologized for making all of those poor choices.

All I ever heard Bay say was, "I need you to know the truth and be okay with it."

I feel that it would have gone a long way with Emmett, if Bay had also said, "I made mistakes, and I am sorry." I never heard Bay say that, and she did make mistakes.

Bay won't let Tank take the blame for what happened between them. Bay won't take the blame herself. No one is taking ownership of the mistakes.

Emmett cannot forgive anyone, if no one accepts responsibility. And yet, Emmett has been hurt. He needs to forgive.

It's a mess. But I do think it has been a mess from the moment Bay and Emmett got back together. When Emmett tells Bay, "This isn't how it was supposed to happen between us," in Love Among the Ruins, I think that was a HUGE sign that their relationship was not going to work this time, and it didn't.

From the moment Bay and Emmett got back together, things were off between them. To me, most of it stemmed from the fact that Bay didn't truly trust Emmett.

Quote:
I wonder if her not getting into Pratt was what made her take the fall for Daphne, in some weird way. I never got the impression she really wanted to go to LA for herself, she was just going to follow Emmett there. But not getting into her dream school must have sucked.
I never got the impression that Emmett wanted to go to LA. Bay totally maneuvered that decision. Emmett was EXTREMELY hesitant to even consider it, and he only did it, finally, at Bay's insistence, over and over again.

I don't think not getting into Pratt is what made Bay take the fall for Daphne. But I do wonder if Bay would have been willing to give up Pratt for Daphne.

Bay may not have been willing to give it up for Daphne. I would like to think that she wouldn't have been willing, but then again, I would like to think that Bay would never make that kind of sacrifice, no matter what her plans for the future.

Bay certainly gave up Emmett quickly enough for Daphne. We never even saw Bay think twice about that decision. We never saw a moment of regret. The first words out of Daphne's mouth were, "If you do this, you won't be able to go to LA with Emmett."

And Bay quickly said, "I know," and it was obvious she didn't care.

Honestly, I am still in shock that being with Emmett meant so little to Bay. It is probably the main reason I totally understand Emmett's decision on the beach. Why should Emmett distract himself from his studies now, when being with him meant so little to Bay then?

It's strange to me. It truly is as if being with Emmett meant nothing to Bay, and I don't understand that.

Quote:
I just pictured that, and the image is too sad. It better not become a reality! *looks to writers*
Yeah, Bay has to have a better future than that.

Quote:
I personally think a third time at a relationship is too much, even if it's a couple other than Emmett and Bay. Something must have happened to drive them apart not once, but twice.
Really?

I am the EXACT opposite. I believe any relationship worth having is worth trying again and again and again and again and again and again and again, ad infinitum.

Quote:
My turn for full disclosure! (To a point, this is the internet.)

Part of the reason I'm so anti-cheating is because part of the reason my parents got a divorce is because one of them cheated on the other. They are much happier apart, and I'm not sad about their divorce, but I still do not think one of them should have cheated on the other.

I don't understand why people just don't break up with their significant others first. Obviously a marriage is a lot more complicated than people who are dating (especially if there are kids involved), but still.
Ideally people would break up with their significant others first, but life is complicated. And sometimes people cheat and they don't even want to break up at all.

This show has helped me to solidify my feelings on cheating. It hasn't changed my feelings. From the time I was a little girl, I have always felt this same way. But after watching Switched at Birth, I have looked at the issue from almost every angle. This show sure has delved into the topic of cheating, more than any other I know.

Quote:
I don't think being drunk is ever an excuse -- if someone had, say, crashed my car and used the "I was drunk" excuse, I wouldn't let them off the hook. Bad example, but it's been kind of a long-ish day and I don't have the energy to think of a better one.

I personally feel like what happened with Tank and Bay was sexual assault. Even if a person was drunk, that doesn't mean someone could take advantage of them -- in this case, it doesn't mean Tank could take advantage of Bay, and I don't see her sleeping with him if she had been sober. I know Tank had been drinking, too, but from the flashbacks, she had more to drink than he did. When the episode first aired, I thought someone had slipped something in Bay's drink and that's why she had trouble remembering and things like that. And yes, Bay did make the decision to drink, but she was among friends, where she probably thought she would be safe and not have to worry about anything.

I never really got the impression she still had feelings for him. I know he did for her, but I thought she only wanted to be friends with him.
A lot of people feel as you do. I understand, but I disagree.

People choose to get drunk to release themselves from their inhibitions. It doesn't matter what Bay would have wanted when she was sober, because Bay chose to get drunk. What matters is what Bay wanted while she was drunk.

If Bay wanted sex with Tank, while she was drunk, then it was not assault.

If Bay did not want sex with Tank, while she was drunk, then yes, it was assault.

Unfortunately, Bay cannot remember what she wanted while she was drunk. Daphne asked Bay if she could have wanted sex with Tank, and Bay said that she didn't know.

Tank said that she was into it, and I believe him. I just don't see it as assault, at all.

I do feel sad for everyone involved, though.

In her interviews, Lizzy Weiss was correct. Alcohol is the real villain, as it is in so many scenarios. It's sad.
ollibear is offline  
Old 04-20-2015, 08:45 AM
  #59
Addicted Fan

 
AnneH's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,491
I don't think they did this storyline for in the end it to be categorized as cheating.
AnneH is offline  
Old 04-20-2015, 10:13 AM
  #60
Master Fan

 
ollibear's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneH (View Post)
I don't think they did this storyline for in the end it to be categorized as cheating.
My guess is that you are right, although it sure would give Bay a lot more power and control, if she chose to look at what happened as her choice, as her mistake, in other words, as cheating.

If it is Bay's error in judgment, then she can make amends to Emmett for it.

And Bay needs to make amends, if not for the act of sex itself, then at least for choosing to blur the lines of intimacy with Tank. Because Bay really blurred those lines, even without the sex, and that was unfair to Emmett, especially during a long distance relationship.

That's something Emmett never did with Simone. Emmett never emotionally cheated on Bay. He may have danced around it with Skye, but not until Bay and Tank had sex, and even then, it was nothing like what Bay chose to do with Tank.

If Bay would just apologize for that, it would help to heal her disconnect with Emmett.

Plus, if Bay looks at blurring the lines of intimacy as her responsibility, her mistake, then she can take positive steps to minimize a misunderstanding like the one that happened with Tank from ever occurring with another man again. However, if Bay sees herself as just a victim of an assault, or as a survivor with no culpability, then she will be powerless to minimize the risk.

I want Bay to see herself as capable of choosing a different course, one where things like this are less likely to happen. Because she is capable of doing that.

Otherwise Bay is a victim, or at best a survivor, with little to no control over her own destiny.

But Bay probably never will look at it that way. My guess is that the writers would have had Bay apologize to Emmett already, if they were ever going to go down that road.

So what will probably happen is that, eventually, Emmett will realize "gray" means Bay had no choice, that this was done to her, that both Bay and Tank are innocent, that alcohol is to blame, or while we are at it, Emmett is to blame, because he IS the one who walked away from Bay during their picnic.

Emmett will be the one that the writers deem as needing to grow.

Sure, it's all Emmett's fault. Let's give him all the power. That's probably what the writers will do. Barf!

Emmett already did his growing, but why would the writers recognize that? They seem to love painting everything Bay and Daphne do as blameless. It must be some new concept of feminism, where writers disenfranchise their female heroines, in order to make them appear perfect.

But whether the writers ever have Bay or Daphne take ownership of any of their mistakes, they sure do need to do so, not for Emmett, although their choices have been mightily unfair to him, too.

They need to do it for themselves.
Edited to Add: I sounded hopeless, when I wrote this post, earlier today. But I still have hope. I believe that the writers will have Bay take responsibility for her mistakes. I have believed that would be the main story for Season 4B, since the mid-season finale.

This afternoon, I was feeling discouraged, because everywhere I go, very few people seem to recognize that Bay made any mistakes.

Fortunately, at least, a few people do think Bay was wrong to take the fall for Daphne (although, unbelievably, some people see Bay as Christ like for that), but other than that one (possible) error in judgment, very few people seem to recognize that Bay has done anything wrong.

I feel Bay has made a lot of mistakes. She is a good person with a giving heart. She does a lot of things right. In fact, Bay does more things right than any other character on the show. But she makes some mistakes, too, and I would like to see her take ownership of those.

I guess we will see how it all turns out this summer.

Last edited by ollibear; 04-20-2015 at 07:24 PM
ollibear is offline  
 

Bookmarks


Thread Tools



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:55 AM.

Fan Forum  |  Contact Us  |  Fan Forum on Twitter  |  Fan Forum on Facebook  |  Archive  |  Top

Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2021.

Copyright © 1998-2021, Fan Forum.


TEST