NotDoneAbusingYou

Preach Issi.

Also, we are not,saying Catherine's actions are excusable, just justifiable and that Mary should be punished just as much because she put not only Francis life in danger but his whole family and all of France. She should not get preferencial treatment. He should be fair. If Mary is forgiven Catherine should be too and if Catherine is punished Mary should also be punished.

kerbear28

Well said. In my opinion, what both Catherine and Francis did was pretty reprehensible. I won't excuse either one of them, but I can certainly understand why each of them reacted the way they did. You did a beautiful job of describing Francis' perspective and just how much his mother's betrayal hurt him.

I'm not saying that Catherine deserved to be scared and humiliated in that way, but it was in no way worse than what she herself did to Francis...and has done to countless others. I think you are right. If anyone had done to Catherine what she did to Francis, she would have reacted with even more ruthlessness and cruelty. I say this as someone who loves Catherine.

I agree that killing Conde, in the end, would have solved nothing. Unless you kill Antoine as well, the Bourbon threat still exists. In fact, killing Conde would only fuel Antoine's anger and resentment against the Valois (who he already blames for the death of his other brother). Even if Conde had been dealt with "discreetly" early on, Antoine would have suspected that it was not an accident. He would not have backed down.

makeitreign

It doesn't matter if Antoine backed down or not. Killing Conde would have been condes punishment for his numerous betrayals. Who cares if Antoine got angry? There is nothing Francis can do or not do that would stop Antoine for coming after him. The least he could do was punish Conde for trying to kill him and his family. As everyone has said, Antoine is coming for him regardless, so why not punish Conde for his treason? The only reason he didn't is because he was being...soft. You best believe if the shoe was on the other foot Antoine nor Conde would've hesitated to kill Francis. And they wouldn't care how much it would angry Catherine or Mary or what they would do in return.

kerbear28

Do we know for sure that Antoine was planning on coming after Francis regardless? Maybe. Eventually. But that doesn't mean killing his brother would not have made the tensions explode and been the catalyst for him to actually go to war with France and make a play for the crown. We were only saying that Conde's death would fuel the fire and make the situation with Navarre that much worse. PLUS, you would still have to deal with Protestant rebels rallying around Conde as their fallen hero.



I will never say that Conde didn't deserve to be executed for treason, though. He did.

NotDoneAbusingYou

Again I agree with everything you said here. It's like you are reading my mind.

BryceLarkinFanForever

Francis is forgiving with everyone except his mother for the exact reason that it is his mother, it's the one person he should be able to trust without any reservations using his own child to manipulate him, that in lies the big difference between Catherine and everyone else. Everyone else is not his mother, Condé, Mary, Narcisse, all others, they aren't his mother, they can't hurt him the way a mother's betrayal could - enemies, cheating spouses, nome of that compares to the betrayal of a mother, that is why this is different, that is why Francis isn't forgiving.

Francis was letting Condé live because he wanted to use diplomacy, he wanted a hostage that he could bargain with for peace, for control, and to make sure there wouldn't be escalation from Navarre, he wanted to try a different way - Catherine not only couldn't trust him, she undermined him by using his son as a weapon against him.

This is typical of an overbearing mother who wants to smother and protect her children and never realizing that she is in many ways the reason they end up getting hurt.

NotDoneAbusingYou

She knows his plan would not have worked, she was right. It didn't. Conde got away and Francis was unable to use him the way he planned. As I said before she trusted all of his decisions before this one, even when she clearly did not agree.

If you were dead sure a loved one was doing something that would get them killed, would you not do anything it took to stop them? Or just sit there and let them walk themselves off a bridge?

He never trusted her words, even before she did this. He wouldn't even take what she had to say into consideration. He even listened to Bash, who knows nothing of politics, before listening to her. Every time she has warned them of something she's been right, so based on track record how could she take a chance that this might be the one time she was wrong?

BryceLarkinFanForever

I wouldn't stoop to use grief to manipulate someone but I'm not Catherine so I don't think like her. Fact is whatever reason she did it for, she still did it, she still used the death of his son to manipulate Francis, and even for that horrible unforgivable betrayal, he simply banished her away from court, that was the extent of his punishment for her, he would never kill her.

But this, this is all happening because of Catherine's continued meddling, this is all happening because Francis has given her mercy and she is practically spitting it back in his face by consorting with Elizabeth and undermine his rule again. She is actively and purposely ruining things for him and embarrassing him. Acting like she is the King and he is simply nothing.

He has given her mercy despite such a horrible betrayal and hurt, and not only has she not shown remorse, she's the exact opposite, plotting and scheming against his interests.

What else can he do except to send a clear and loud message that apparently Catherine did not get the first time around. That tiger is the message.

Catherine was the one who kept poking the tiger with her schemes and plots, why is it surprising the tiger finally had enough and chose to bite back? Her own plots are the reason she's in this position, not anybody else.

I can't feel sorry for her in that moment when she chose a path that she knew could lead to this as a consequence. She made a choice, she could have simply stayed in exile but she chose to get involved and seek revenge and she got outplayed. She made that decision and needs to own it.

Look, I respect that she made a choice and stand by that choice whatever it could cost her, I respect that she loves her children that she is willing to risk the loss of a relationship, but when she made those choices, she knew the consequences, she walked into the hailstorm by her own volition, she can't complain now because she gets damaged from the storm.

NotDoneAbusingYou

She was plotting and scheming to get Mary's power taken away because she has too much pull over Francis and she feel Mary will be his downfall.

Spitting his mercy back in his face? What mercy? Taking everything from her, her home, her family, her money...that's mercy? He may as well have thrown her into the ocean without a life preserver. She is willing to die for her children. He could have found another way.

Look at Bash for instance, you can't do a worse thing than Diane did. She killed two innocent babies. Bash let her go with almost no punishment at all. Sure he said he'd never speak to her again, but he let her keep everything else. If anyone else in the world had done what she did, Bash would have strangled them to death just like Catherine did. He let her go because she is his mother. That is mercy. That is love.

Catherine let Mary's crap go for months, she even refused to hurt her or take anything from her when Narcisse suggested it. Even though she knew what it was doing to Francis. She tried her hardest not to be this way. They pushed her to it. You can only do so much to a person before they lash out at you. For someone like Catherine, it was impressive that she waited so long. She waited because she loves both Francis and Mary. She tried to fix things other ways. They wouldn't let her.

Catherine says kill that guy for Narcisse's son, she doesn't things go wrong

Catherine says, share your problems with Mary, he doesn't, things go wrong

Catherine says don't send troops to Scotland, they do it, things go wrong

How many times should she let them destroy themselves and their country before she takes the wheel?

He may be king, but he is nieve. So is Mary. She knows they want to be better, but she also knows that's not possible.

BryceLarkinFanForever

Yes he let her live, that is enough mercy for the crap she pulled, he let her live because it is his mother and he couldn't kill her, so he sends her away, tells her she can go anywhere, back to the Medicis if she wants but she wouldn't be welcomed at court and she wouldn't have her title. He shouldn't have to find another way, the punishment fit the crime. If my mother had done that to me, I would have tossed her into the ocean without a life preserver, Francis was far more compassionate.

And please, it's not like she's suddenly destitute and helpless, she clearly had enough resources to still keep her fancy clothes and make her way to Elizabeth, she's not a helpless poor woman with nothing. The fact that she was going to arrange Charles to marry Elizabeth, clearly shows she hasn't lost her children when she could hand off one to be married.

As for Bash, it wasn't his child, it may have been two half siblings but it wasn't his child that his mother did anything to, so the fact he banished her away, told her they would never see each other again and took away the estate that he had gifted her, that was his punishment for her, that her actions would forever cost her the relationship she will have with him.

Whatever feelings of anger, it's not his child that Diane used against him, when it comes to your child, it's different than siblings or friends or cousins or even parents. It's your child. That's what Francis had to face, that's what he cried for and Catherine allowed it to happen.

And by your own logic, Mary and Francis certainly didn't plan to do this to Catherine, they were more than content to leave her alone and just let her live life, she pushed them into it, she could only do so much before they lash out at her.

Taking away Mary's power is taking away Francis', Catherine is not stupid nor naive to not realize that. Her plotting against Mary is her plotting against Francis.

So maybe they are naive, but they are still King and Queen, her scheming doesn't help the country at all except bring about more tension and turmoil, except continually hurting Francis and his rule.

She loves him so much that she's loving him right out of a crown might as well.

NotDoneAbusingYou

She is trying to help him keep his crown, not lose it. He is the one making dumb decisions. Everything decision he has made was wrong. Every...single....one.

They would not be in the mess they are in if they had listened to her in the first place. And how is taking Scotland away from Mary going to hurt Francis exactly? Other than having to see Mary suffer...it won't. Scotland is dragging France down. Removing it might actually help honestly. Francis would lose nothing, and would then have more power than Mary.

kerbear28

I really don't have much more to add to this conversation, but I'll just say this:

^^ BryceLarkinFanForever, you make some good points. I agree that, considering what Catherine did, the fact that her punishment was just exhile actually was merciful. Obviously, she was not cast out onto the streets, destitute and helpless. She still had the resources to set up a decoy in Tuscany and make it all the way to England. As you said, Francis and Mary were perfectly content to leave her alone until they learned that she was planning to take Mary down - which as we all know, is the same as plotting against Francis himself.

So, maybe Francis and Mary are naive and hope for a BETTER world. But they are King and Queen. I understand Catherine's desire to intervene - especially when her experience tells her that she knows better than they do. But has her meddling actually helped? Has it done anything but undermine Francis' rule and put the country in more turmoil? Just because they don't take her advice and things go wrong doesn't mean that Catherine's advice was "right" or that things would have necessarily gone better if they had listened to her. We'll take the example of Francis' plans for Conde. It's easy to say that Catherine was "right" because Conde ended up escaping. Hindsight is 20/20 and no one predicted that Elizabeth's assassin would break him out of that dungeon. And where exactly was Francis when he should have been focused on making sure Conde was secure in his cell and that his plans for diplomacy were swiftly executed? Oh, right...he was in the chapel grieving for his infant son and praying for the strength to go on. Because of his loving mother's well intentioned interference. Sure Catherine wants to help Francis keep his crown, but I just don't see how what Catherine did actually helped Francis become the King he wants and needs to be.

Again... I completely understand both sides of these arguments. None of these characters are perfect or have perfect motives. But, I love them anyway.

makeitreign

Antoine was always coming after francis. he sent conde to spy and spot weakness for that reason. When he arrives he also reminded conde what they did to their brother and that the Bourbons should be on the throne. He's not interested in making peace.



I also vehemently disagree that it makes sense for francis should be less forgiving of his mother than everyone else is his life. That is backwards to me. So agree to disagree.

NotDoneAbusingYou

My point is only that blaming everything on Catherine is way harsh, they are ALL equally to blame, is what I'm saying. Catherine is not some evil bitch out to control every one and every thing. She loves her family, including Mary, sometimes to their detriment, yes, but she does what she believes is best. What she did is no more wrong than what they did.

Here is the difference, Catherine knows she is awful, and knows she has done wrong. She accepts that about herself in order to keep her family safe.

Mary, while feeling some guilt, and very little at that, does not truly see what she did as wrong. She says she made some mistakes, but she has not accepted that what she did nearly destroyed Francis. She still held blame on Francis while he lied in bed dying. She is a hypocrite and Francis, while not wrong in being upset, is for some reason only able to see anything but the bad in Catherine and none of the good. He can be mad, he can hate her for what she did. Fine. But for him to actually think that his mother doesn't care about him is insane.

Beawild

If it weren't for the wonderful Megan Follows I wouldn't waste an hour of my time watching this show. I remember a fun Season 1, a so-so Season 2 and now what is probably going to be an appalling Season 3.

Catherine IS a Queen, whether Mary and Francis like it or not. More importantly, Catherine de Medici and Elizabeth I were the most important women of the XVI century. When Francis dies she will rule France (through her sons) for almost 30 years. And Mary? She will be sent back to Scotland where her endless foolish behavior will eventually force Elizabeth to order her beheading.

Maybe Mary should remember who will be in charge once Francis dies, Charles is a minor. Considering that Mary could have lost her head for committing treason with Conde, I would think that she would avoid putting her mother-in-law into a cage with a tiger.

I am also disappointed that a woman producer treats women so poorly. Greer is portrayed as a madam and is induced into sleeping with a low-life so that Mary can have enough funds to protect her precious Scotland. Lola is falling for Narcisse, who is as low as a snake. Mary betrayed her husband with a guy who had divided loyalties, yet her weak husband forgave her. The only strong, empowered women are Catherine and hopefully Elizabeth (too soon to tell about Elizabeth).