Reign - Reign 3.01 "Three Queens, Two Tigers" Episode Discussion - Page 3

De Medici Queen · 10-11-2015, 07:26 AM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

It was just disturbing to watch. I was actually saying in the other thread that to me it was as disturbing as the rape and I'm embarassed someone actually wrote that and thought it would be a good idea.

preach! And there is nothing fair about that! But I guess maybe that was the only way to catch her and bring her back to France without her escaping an fighting lol

This is not about Francis being the hurt father it's not the reason he is doing it and allowing it! It's because of Mary, he's allowing her to do this and whatever she wants because he loves her. How blind is that?

Yes, Catherine is not a saint and she's done horrible things but it's still not a reason to humiliate a character that way! She was a Queen, a ruler a mother... It's wrong! And yes, she is doing things for her children because they are her power, that's where her power lies but nobody can convince me she doesn't love her children ESPECIALLY Francis her firstborn!

Mandy, that's true. And it must be dangerous too. And I'm actually surprised Megan agreed on doing this scene so close to the animal but that just shows how professional she is

drunkalice · 10-11-2015, 07:36 AM

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Am I the only one who's annoyed that they used a freaking tiger on the show. A wild animal, a species that is endangered in the wild and they put it in a cage ? I can't believe they contribute to this, it's cruelty.

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Mandy, that's true. And it must be dangerous too. And I'm actually surprised Megan agreed on doing this scene so close to the animal but that just shows how professional she is

I'm pretty sure I saw a tiger on The Borgias too, possibly that same tiger. It must be domesticated for movie purposes or something. I'm not condoning anything, I'm too ignorant in that matter to say anything about it.

BryceLarkinFanForever · 10-11-2015, 07:41 AM

Fact stands, she is nothing, she is no queen and she has been scheming with the enemy, undermining her own son as King to make political moves. She lost the right to be called queen mother or anything when she can't even respect her king enough to follow his wishes.

And hurt father is completely part of the reason this is happening, if Catherine hadn't made Francis believe his son died, if he wasn't still angry and frankly just done with her plots and schemes, would he allow Mary to do this? No. The Francis before season 2 finale wouldn't have allowed Mary to do this but because Catherine betrayed him and is now trying to hurt Mary and undermine his rule again, it gives him all the reason to channel that anger to teach her a lesson. It has nothing to do with blind love but a son who is sick of his mother sticking her nose into his business again and again trying to control his life.

Catherine may love her children but that love has also been the reason of hurt for her children. She loves Francis so much that she would plot to have him even feel the pain of losing his baby son just to get him to do what she wants. Parents too often use love as an excuse, as if love alone can fix the pain and emotional damage, as if someone isn't in physical danger or harm then it's okay. It isn't.

As for the tiger, it's likely CGI or they shot it separately and just did a composite, it's not hard to do.

drunkalice · 10-11-2015, 07:49 AM

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Fact stands, she is nothing, she is no queen and she has been scheming with the enemy, undermining her own son as King to make political moves. She lost the right to be called queen mother or anything when she can't even respect her king enough to follow his wishes.

Mary didn't respect Francis either, but she's sleeping between ten pillows and comfortable sheets and never got one word of reproach from him.
As for Catherine being nothing, I guess it's POVs. I love Francis and I like Mary, but Catherine's still bigger than either of them ever can or will be.

**ds44** · 10-11-2015, 07:54 AM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

Mary didn't respect Francis either, but she's sleeping between ten pillows and comfortable sheets and never got one word of reproach from him.
As for Catherine being nothing, I guess it's POVs. I love Francis and I like Mary, but Catherine's still bigger than either of them ever can or will be.

I think her personality is, but realistically so she isn't. She's only Queen mother and all her power has been via proxy. I think the beauty in Catherine is her complexity and the fact that she can in fact be straight up villainous, whitewashing her actions does nothing. Do I think what they did was cruel, yes. Was it necessary so she could stop undermining his power? Yes. Is it something Catherine herself would do? Hell, yes. I guess I don't believe she was truly harmed. She wasn't put in the cage with the tiger. She was simply humiliated which both Mary and Catherine have been doing to Francis for some time. Do I think its unfair that Catherine is getting no free pass while MAry is? Yes. But, I was expecting that.

BryceLarkinFanForever · 10-11-2015, 07:59 AM

No, Mary did not respect Francis but she was also the one who made the choice out of her own volition to neutralize the threat of Condé and his army because she was remorseful and she completely apologized and actually remedied the situation by clearly choosing her allegiance for Francis.

Catherine has in fact done none of that, she not only was not remorseful in her decision made, she not only fought against him on her banishment, tried to make excuses for herself in somehow making her choice to make him believe his son died was justified - she is now consorting with the enemy to actively undermine him and make him look weak, and again when she was caught, showed no remorse but prideful threats and demands.

I was very much annoyed by Mary last season but at least Mary had the good grace to look scolded and embarrassed and ashamed. Catherine is none of that, she is proudly defiant in her choice. That doesn't exactly engender any warm fuzzy feelings of forgiveness except testing one's patience.

She might be bigger in personality and experience and having people fear her but nothing else.

drunkalice · 10-11-2015, 08:08 AM

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I guess I don't believe she was truly harmed. She wasn't put in the cage with the tiger. She was simply humiliated

But I never said she was harmed, while I did say she was humiliated and I can't quite get around why everyone seems to think it's okay and no big deal. I wish to God I never see anything like that again.

**ds44** · 10-11-2015, 08:14 AM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

But I never said she was harmed, while I did say she was humiliated and I can't quite get around why everyone seems to think it's okay and no big deal. I wish to God I never see anything like that again.

That's understandable. I think Ive just seen too much violence on tv.

BryceLarkinFanForever · 10-11-2015, 08:21 AM

That time period has always been violent and brutal, they're not the PC standards of modern day so I don't tend to look at this kind of stuff with my modern lens

Catherine's actions could bring deadly and impacting consequences, only fair she finally realizes that she's no longer the one in control. That tiger was a very clear message sent.

And locking her in a separate cage next to a tiger is nothing compared to her killing a boy and have him bled dry to make it look like sacrifice to divert suspicion away from herself. Or when she ordered a group of scottish killed in cold blood, along with the prostitutes, and burned them all. If people were okay with that then this is hardly the most disturbing. At least she's alive.

drunkalice · 10-11-2015, 08:57 AM

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That time period has always been violent and brutal, they're not the PC standards of modern day so I don't tend to look at this kind of stuff with my modern lens

No really no, Reign has nothing 16th century-ish about it. If Catherine had ever been stripped of her titles by her son, not even then she would have been treated that way. The show uses a modern lens most of the time, or a good 98% of what we see, including Mary brushing her own hair or bathing or sleeping in her room completely alone would never happen. This isn't Game of Thrones.

De Medici Queen · 10-11-2015, 09:14 AM

Are we forgetting the fact that Catherine DIDN'T kill the boy or Lola! That wasn't his blood! And that she would never harm her gradson!
We're still forgetting that the ONLY important title that counts in this story is NOT Queen mother is Catherine as the woman who gave him life, Francis' mother!

Plus she still thinks Francis will die because of Mary! And if she goes against Mary she's not going against Francis because she wants him alive! She wants her blood to rule!

Yes, that was a brutal period but Reign is not historically accurate! And I remember after the rape scene in 2.09 everybody commented how a CW show like Reign isn't for that kind of brutal scenes. I don't want that for this show, it's not why I started watching and exactly this kind of scenes and storylines are what lead to people giving up on Reign!

And yes, it's true! Mary makes wrong decisions, she talks sh#t and then she cries and regrets it.. Catherine makes terrible things and she goes on without thinking about it too much and regretting.. That's what I call fierce personality, attitude! She's known for her temper that we saw since the Pilot in 1.01 and that's what most of us like about her and now they destroy it and all her dignity in 2 minutes to finally make Mary look like a powerful Queen! Well done Reign Writers!

We're discussing so much other things when all I wanted to say is... I don't understand Francis supporting and loving and forgiving Mary and allowing her to do this to Catherine and treat her like an ANIMAL! Not even Henry did something similar to her and oh he had reasons enough.

**kerbear28** · 10-11-2015, 09:37 AM

First, I will just say that I love the discussion here!

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Originally Posted by BryceLarkinFanForever (View Post)

It's an opinion, not a fact. And I simply don't agree. Francis allowed her mercy and let her go, she spurned that by getting into schemes with Elizabeth, trying to marry Charles off without his permission. Her actions doesn't just threaten Mary, it undermines him as King, again as I said, Catherine is not the King of France no matter her experience and her actions in scheming with others only make Francis look weak, like he's nothing and can't even run a country without his mother pulling the strings. Catherine is not doing Francis any favors by her keep trying to do the right thing. He is a King and her actions only embarrass him and send a clear signal to him that she thinks very little of him and doesn't respect him at all.

And killing Condé doesn't solve any problems but only bring on more, it's not like Condé is the only Bourbon, Antoine is still alive too and if his brother dies, you think Antoine wouldn't use that as an excuse for another war? She didn't make the threat go away but would have given the Bourbons a martyr to rally their forces around.

How does a mother expect respect from her children when she doesn't respect them back?

Making him believe his son is dead, having him see what he thought was his son's blood, manipulating him using grief as a weapon, none of those things make a good king, but rather a easily controlled and duped puppet king.

And what a mother did to deserve this? Making her son believe that his child is dead to manipulate him, having him see the blood on the baby blanket to get the point across, and instead of being in exile and in remorse, goes to the enemy to continue stiring up trouble.

Personally Catherine is lucky that Francis and Mary only threatened her with the tiger, I would have tossed her into the tiger cage if I was in their position but hey, they're less ruthless than I am when I'm pissed enough.

I do agree with this. What Catherine did with the Lola/baby Jonny abduction plot was just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to her manipulation and disrespect for Francis and his rule. As much as I despise Conde and would have relished seeing Francis kill him and take his vengeance, Francis chose DIPLOMACY. It was a rational and valid choice. It was FRANCIS' choice as King. Just because Catherine believed it was "right" for Conde to die doesn't make it so. But Catherine didn't respect Francis or his choice. She might say that she did it for Francis and Mary's sake, but that's a lame excuse.

Catherine was the one who decided to retaliate and stir up trouble by working with Elizabeth. I believe she would not hesitate to humiliate Francis and Mary in the same way if she thought it was necessary. She simply got outplayed fair and square. They may have taken the humiliation and scare tactics too far, but maybe that was necessary to gain her respect? She always is advising them to be ruthless and decisive - showing their power. She can't really complain when they use that against her. It's actually pretty tame compared to some of the things she has done.

Again, I understand being disturbed by that scene and disappointed in Francis and Mary, but I also understand why they did what they did.

De Medici Queen · 10-11-2015, 09:45 AM

Again... I understand that Mary did this. But I don't understand Francis allowing it.

I don't get what other reason she would have to see Conde dead if not because of Francis.. Like he sleeps with your wife, he dares to take your crown and attack your castle your family and you want what? To let him go to his brother to try to come back again?

drunkalice · 10-11-2015, 10:04 AM

I really do believe whatever Catherine does is for Francis only, and while going behind his back might not be the best way of showing it I always keep in mind that she genuinely believes it will favour him, whether he sees that or not. It's not just a trait of hers as a character, it's something historians think of her RL counterpart as well (of course in that case it would include her other sons too).
She's not even looking for a thank you note: of course as a mother she'd rather have her kids' love than not, but if they don't love her or think she doesn't love them but they're still safe she can live with that. We saw that with Claude too.
Mind you, I'm not justifying Catherine no matter what, I'm not interested in being her lawyer or anything. It's a character on a show. But as far as characters go, while I can often disagree when it comes to her actions at least I can understand her motives.

De Medici Queen · 10-11-2015, 10:10 AM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

I really do believe whatever Catherine does is for Francis only, and while going behind his back might not be the best way of showing it I always keep in mind that she genuinely believes it will favour him, whether he sees that or not. It's not just a trait of hers as a character, it's something historians think of her RL counterpart as well (of course in that case it would include her other sons too).
She's not even looking for a thank you note: of course as a mother she'd rather have her kids' love than not, but if they don't love her or think she doesn't love them but they're still safe she can live with that. We saw that with Claude too.
Mind you, I'm not justifying Catherine no matter what, I'm not interested in being her lawyer or anything. It's a character on a show. But as far as characters go, while I can often disagree when it comes to her actions at least I can understand her motives.

Are we twins? I think we're twins and don't know it yet

yes and yes to all this

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Fan Forum > TV Shows - Past > Reign > Reign 3.01 "Three Queens, Two Tigers" Episode Discussion