KLynn92295

I was put off by that last scene as well. We've grown to love Francis for his compassion, and yet he still just watched as his mother was put into a cage with a tiger...and whipped on the hand by Mary? WHAT? Girl's asking for it.

I don't understand why the writers deemed it necessary to have Mary and Francis treat her this way. I mean, she was EXILED and her title stripped, and they didn't expect backlash?

Megan was outstanding in this episode, though!

I posted my more detailed thoughts on Frary on their thread, and since I'm self-proclaimed Frary trash, you know it's sappy.

NotDoneAbusingYou

for the first time in a long time it seems most of us are agreed on the basics. I really enjoyed this episode. That last scene was fantastically acted by Megan. Although I'm sure it wasn't hard to muster a little terror. haha.

I am mad at Francis and Mary for it, but at the same time I can't entirely blame them. I mean she had to get punished. What she did was wrong. but just like she did in the finale, they went a little too far.

And they did expect backlash, that's why they were having tabs kept on her, they just didn't know yet that it was actually a decoy.

They might just be trying to scare her straight. Teach her a lesson. Perhaps they don't intend to keep her locked up forever.

kerbear28

Since we're discussing that last scene here and on the Catherine thread, I'll basically cut and paste my thoughts in both places.

First of all Megan's acting was phenomenal. As usual.

I'll admit that that last scene made me uncomfortable, too. You all know that I love and admire Francis so much for his selflessness and compassion. So to see him watch his mother treated like that made me uneasy. I do think they went too far. YET, I think it's important that we at least try to look at this from Francis and Mary's perspective.

Francis knows that the time he has left with Mary, the woman he loves, his EVERYTHING that he will lay down his life to protect, is extremely limited. Then he learns that his mother - who has already betrayed him by abducting his son and allowing him to believe he was DEAD - is ONCE AGAIN threatening his wife's life, along with her crown and the stability of her country. Maybe his love for Mary doesn't justify what he allowed to happen to Catherine, but his anger is still understandable. It's just frustrating for me, because I feel like no matter what Francis does, he can't win! When he was betrayed by Mary, he reacted with compassion and forgiveness - and he's called a weak king, henpecked, and stupid. Yet, when Catherine betrays him (and is completely unapologetic or remorseful), he reacts harshly, yet strongly and decisively. I was actually proud that he outsmarted his mother, kept tabs on her, and was able to foil her plans. I know that Francis is not perfect, but his character is not "ruined" in my eyes at all. In fact, I'm still hopeful that he and Catherine will find a way to reconcile.

Mary's hypocrisy when she called Catherine out for betraying Francis and endangering the country made me roll my eyes, too. Yet, have we suddenly forgotten that Catherine once tried to have Mary raped and tried to have her killed several times? They may have had several bonding moments, but they are not friends. Frenemies, maybe? Now Mary learns that Catherine attempted to turn the Vatican against her and threatened her life and crown ONCE AGAIN by conspiring with her greatest enemy. It's only human that Mary take a little satisfaction in a moment when she has the upper hand over Cat.

Again, I'm not saying that how Francis and Mary handled the situation wasn't wrong. But maybe we need to give it time before we judge them harshly for it?

Amanda may be right. Perhaps they were just trying to scare Cat straight and teach her a lesson.

BryceLarkinFanForever

I think the difference is that while Mary did cheat and betray Francis, part of that did come from the trauma she suffered and trying to find happiness, so while it's not a good thing she did, it did come from a very emotional position. But Catherine made Francis believe his son was dead, put his son in harm's way, and all of it to get Francis to do what she thought was right instead of trusting him to be King, that hurts more. A cheating wife, that's something that can be handled but your own mother willing to make you believe that your child is dead, that kind of betrayal runs far deeper. Mary at the least did end up going against Condé and help Francis win, Catherine is still continuously trying to do things that would undermine Francis as King. It's as if she thinks she is King and she can do better and has no faith in Francis, that is something surely would anger and pain Francis even more.

So honestly, I felt Mary and Francis were entirely justified with how they've treated her in that last scene. Catherine wouldn't really bat an eye to bring Mary down and in the process hurting Francis, so why should they not hold their own and teach her a lesson too?

If anything, I actually admire that they stuck to their guns and didn't back down. Wasn't Catherine the one who kept saying they needed to grow up and be all cold and decisive in showing their power? Well, now they are.

And as for the episode itself, I enjoyed it as a whole, tho I could do without Elizabeth and Robert.

Bash needs to get involved with the court stuff instead of orbiting his own planet of supernatural stuff, I hope that happens soon or Francis at least informing Bash that he's dying, I mean seriously, Bash needs to know and be prepared. They can't just blindside him when it happens.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that the thing with Delphine is not as so obvious as we think? I mean it seems like we are suppose to look at her as guilty and evil but what if she isn't?

Remember when Claude was down in the cellars and she saw some dude in the shadows, what if that someone is really responsible for the murder and not Delphine? What if there's some crazy serial killer lose in the castle?

One good thing though, at least Bash is getting indoor scenes and not stuck out in the woods or snow all the time, that probably won't last long though

KLynn92295

It's totally understandable where Mary and Francis are coming from, but it doesn't make that scene any less...shocking. It was interesting, though.

I guess I shouldn't have said they didn't expect backlash, just that they should have known Catherine would most likely A. do something as drastic as she did, and B. target Mary. Overall, I'm really interested to see how they handle this, and how it will shape their relationships.

I'm wondering how Catherine will find out about Francis's condition. I know whenever she does, that scene is going to kill me. Fierce momma bear losing her cub...

I enjoy the implementation of England, and Elizabeth doesn't seem as bad as she did when we saw that glimpse of her last season, but what's up with Robert? Or should I rephrase that? The actor who plays Robert... Is it just me or is he extremely monotone?

"Amy, you shouldn't have."
Dude could not be more enthused.

De Medici Queen

I'm not surprised because of Marys.

There is absolutely nothing Mary can do that would surprise me tbh. Since S2 I don't really care about her happiness and I know a lot of other people who think the same and it's really sad because the writers managed to completely ruin the main character, I mean this show is about Mary, Queen of Scots

It's funny though how the only way they can make Mary look as a "powerful badass" Queen is if they take all the power from Catherine as it's also funny how Mary's mistakes are so easily forgiven and forgotten.


I'm surprised and mad that Francis let this happen. Yes, Mary betrayed him with Conde and some people believe it was because of her after-rape trauma so it's justified.. but Catherine decided to hide his son and make him take the RIGHT decision, kill Conde so he can't escape and possibly appear sometime later trying to take Francis' crown and take him down and kill his whole family. She would never harm her grandson and Francis. She did horrible things but it was FOR Francis, for her children, her family... I can understand that he is upset... but like I said I will never understand him just watching and allowing Mary to do that to his mother who did almost everything just to protect him and save his right to throne as a King and save his life because she believed Mary would cost him this too.. which is true.

Like BryceLarkinFanForever mentioned somewhere on this board, Bash needs a SL and he needs to be invovled and workwith other characters and their problems like Frary, Catherine, Charles.. not Delphine. I hate when he's somewhere outside all the time because he could be so interesting to watch, I can't believe they can't think of a better SL than Delphine!

I LOVED Elizabeth and Robert D. they have so much chemistry. Rachel is AMAZING, I'm surprised. I expected that she will be good but not THAT GOOD

oh and RESPECT the acting was so amazing, this cast is gold. Megan, Toby, Rachel, Torrance, Anna, ........ everybody I like the new characters too. Better than last seasons new characters

BryceLarkinFanForever

The problem I have with Elizabeth and Robert is like this feels a rehash of Mary and Condé, this whole "omg I need you" stuff is just really dull, here is this great queen and they've reduced her to a doe eyed silly girl in love, it's like they are trying to ruin her the way they did with Mary

The thing with Catherine is that she didn't just hide his son, she made him believe that his son was murdered in cold blood. Her hiding him away doesn't change the fact that she did hurt Francis, and things could have gone wrong, a guard could have made a mistake. She allowed Francis to believe his son was dead, made him hurt and grieve, all so she could manipulate him do something that he didn't agree with but she thinks it's the right thing so she did it without ever thinking to trust in her son's ability as King. She used her son's grief as a weapon. She undermined him in the worst way possible, she stabbed him deeper in the heart than Mary could ever do. And instead of being remorseful or not making trouble, she is actively trying to undermine him again.

Let's be honest here, if someone made Catherine believe her children were dead just so they could make her do something she didn't agree with even though they think it was the right thing, and then that same person tries to stir up trouble again, how would Catherine react? She'd do the exact same thing Francis did, and probably even worse.

When your own mother betrays you in that way, would try to manipulate you with the death of your own child, that trust is just broken.

Mary may not be an innocent, she did cheat and she caused great trouble but she never used his son as a weapon directly against him or manipulate him, that's the difference.

I get that Catherine is thinking she's doing this for her children and the greater good and all, but she emotionally crippled her son, she hurt him, and her targeting Mary and her plans with Elizabeth undermines Francis as King.

Catherine is not King of France, Francis is, and if Catherine cannot trust her son to be a good king without her manipulating him emotionally, then Francis has no reason to trust her back.

The hurt and betrayal from a parent is more painful than any lovers. Especially from mothers. Even more especially when you have looked up to your mother your whole life and it all comes crashing down. the ferocity and anger of a betrayed child against a parent is merciless in many ways. And that in with the sheer fury of a parent, it just maximizes that anger and hate even more.

Given my personal experience with my own mother, Francis' actions do not surprise me at all as a betrayed child and an angry parent.

What Catherine is facing now is not her son, it's the fury of a father who still has not forgiven her for using his child as a tool to manipulate him. He will never truly trust her again even if he were to forgive her and he certainly would not trust her with his child again.

De Medici Queen

I love what they did to Elizabeth. At first they presented her as heartless and ruthess Queen but she's not! I remember people complaining that they're sick of Elizabeth being represented as cold when she's not... well that's what we're seing right now. She is badass and cold in some things, but when it comes to love and personal life she's a woman, weak and devoted.

You can't change the fact that what Catherine is facing now it's not a fury of a father, it's Francis supporting Mary! MARY! We saw what he did in season finale as a father, he banished her from court. But now.. that's defending Mary not defending his son!

To kill Conde WAS it IS the right decision, he wouldn't have the chance to escape then.

Nobody can convince me that not-killing Conde was the right thing to do, seriously and it's Catherine, she'd do everything to make Francis make the right decision because she wants him to be a good King, and she wants him to be King and to rule for a long long time, and not risk to lose his crown against Bourbons !


The thing is... Francis and Mary and most of the characters wouldn't recognize that Catherine knows things, that she knows how to rule and they wouldn't listen to her advices even if they are really good. It's annoying that during whole S2 Mary and Francis were making decision on their own not listening to anybody trying to be good rulers but failed so bad... Mary in 2x01, Francis about Conde/Mary, Conde...

I don't know what a mother could do to deserve this

BryceLarkinFanForever

I'm not one of the people who complained so I do want her be badass and ruthless, I didn't say I don't want her to love someone or be soft but I'm over the needy doe eyed girl look - maybe I just don't care for romances in general, they bore me and I don't care for a rehash of Mary and Condé

It's an opinion, not a fact. And I simply don't agree. Francis allowed her mercy and let her go, she spurned that by getting into schemes with Elizabeth, trying to marry Charles off without his permission. Her actions doesn't just threaten Mary, it undermines him as King, again as I said, Catherine is not the King of France no matter her experience and her actions in scheming with others only make Francis look weak, like he's nothing and can't even run a country without his mother pulling the strings. Catherine is not doing Francis any favors by her keep trying to do the right thing. He is a King and her actions only embarrass him and send a clear signal to him that she thinks very little of him and doesn't respect him at all.

And killing Condé doesn't solve any problems but only bring on more, it's not like Condé is the only Bourbon, Antoine is still alive too and if his brother dies, you think Antoine wouldn't use that as an excuse for another war? She didn't make the threat go away but would have given the Bourbons a martyr to rally their forces around.

How does a mother expect respect from her children when she doesn't respect them back?

Making him believe his son is dead, having him see what he thought was his son's blood, manipulating him using grief as a weapon, none of those things make a good king, but rather a easily controlled and duped puppet king.

And what a mother did to deserve this? Making her son believe that his child is dead to manipulate him, having him see the blood on the baby blanket to get the point across, and instead of being in exile and in remorse, goes to the enemy to continue stiring up trouble.

Personally Catherine is lucky that Francis and Mary only threatened her with the tiger, I would have tossed her into the tiger cage if I was in their position but hey, they're less ruthless than I am when I'm pissed enough.

ds44

I love Catherine, but she is a coldass bitch who has been using Francis as a proxy to gain power pretty much since birth. While she may think she is doing it for Francis, she's really doing it for herself. It's just a part of her makeup. I think Francis is also capable of being ruthless and lbr he's prob sick of his mothers repeated efforts of using him as a stepping stone for gaining power.

That said having her thrown in cage with a tiger was horrifying, but I also don't believe she stays their for long. I think its about scaring Catherine and to make her realize he is the king not her. Both Mary and Catherine annoy me when they try to do Francis's job, but maybe now that he's dyign he'll stop taking everyones ****, but I doubt it.

drunkalice

Guys, Catherine was dead wrong but that's still no reason to humiliate her that way, not if you spend most of your time claiming to be a paragon or virtue. And while I can understand Francis slightly more, Mary of all people, knowing extremely well what she herself has done to her husband (I don't care if she was looking for happiness or Jesus) could at least have suggested not to throw a Queen Mother in a cage next to a tiger as if she's some sack of potatoes. I felt extremely uncomfortable watching it, we are losing the sense of measure here.

itsmemandy

Am I the only one who's annoyed that they used a freaking tiger on the show. A wild animal, a species that is endangered in the wild and they put it in a cage ? I can't believe they contribute to this, it's cruelty.
Not to mention tigers are from Asia what the hell does this one do in Europe in the 16 century, it's ridiculous and probably really stressful for the animal

ds44

Mary is just a straight up hypocrite and I don't think Catherine would shy away from embarrassing Francis in the exact same way when given the opportunity.

BryceLarkinFanForever

Except Catherine is not Queen Mother anymore, her titles have been stripped, and given that Catherine was going to humiliate her and working with Elizabeth to stir up trouble and doing things that would irrevocably effect Mary and her control as Queen, it's fair play.

Catherine got outplayed in this case, she got outplayed fair and square, they were content with leaving her alone but she was the one who chose to pick a fight - she chose to poke the tiger and now it's biting back, she really can't complain just as if Mary had lost her throne or the Vatican support, she can't complain either because she would be outplayed due to her own fault.

Catherine was the one who pretty much opened the playfield by basically instituting this notion of all is fair in love and war, so Francis and Mary are now playing the game just as she would.

And as for the tiger, I don't know if it was CGI or not, so unless we know the situation, we can't assume and put blames when we don't even have all the facts. As for what a tiger is doing in 16th century, well, it was a gift from a pirate, pirates who would have traveled to Asia likely on his trips and brings rare and exotic animals to curry favors and show off power and prowess.

drunkalice

Whatever, considering the way Francis gives and strips away titles every two weeks it's just semantics to me. She was queen and she's still his mother, he can call her whatever he wants but the facts stand.

Sure she did. If Mary had been the outplayed one I still wouldn't want her to be treated like a goddamn beast, I'd be here saying Catherine went too far.

It was just disturbing to watch. I was actually saying in the other thread that to me it was as disturbing as the rape and I'm embarassed someone actually wrote that and thought it would be a good idea.