[iamgre@]

Originally Posted by s e r e n i t y (View Post) Ooh are 56kbps modems for DSL? cause I think thats the one I have and now Im feeling very much behind on life in general Ooh Will jumping for joy hes so cute I cant stop thinking about you and this is where it gets creepy for me

56k modems were the top-of-the-line home modem from more than a decade ago. If you have that now then you must be feeling more pain than Jake and Hamilton were when they were prompted to hack into the satellite signal.

In the pilot it doesn't take long for Bella to find out why Scout was avoiding her.

I know you all love the scene with Hamilton and the camera but honestly that he will take pictures of a guy and his motorcycle when he is supposed to be taking pics of the girls does have me wonder if Hamilton isn't really truly gay. He is ok with Jake-the-guy and a bit put-off at learning that Jake is a girl.

This whole show probably contributed a lot to the unending rumours that Ian is gay. And they get countered with claims he is dating INSERT SUPERBABE CELEBRITY DE JOUR.

Finnegan, for being a joke i still find it odd that people can get themselves so excited at the thought of tipping a cow that they are so convincing they succeed in the joke. New shoes, a new car, a christmas bonus that is twice your annual salary, a new baby, a wedding, all are things to get excited about. But to want to go into a field and tip over a cow. I'm busy shaving my legs that night.

[wolkenfuehlen]

Originally Posted by s e r e n i t y (View Post) aww right, that explains Jakes hair in the pilot and the B/S scenes

Exactly Someone correct me, but I think in all the reshot pilot scenes Jake's wearing a hat/her helmet so that people wouldn't be confused by her different hair.

[s e r e n i t y]

56k modems were the top-of-the-line home modem from more than a decade ago. If you have that now then you must be feeling more pain than Jake and Hamilton were when they were prompted to hack into the satellite signal.

well my modem doesnt look like that obviously but thats the speed I have I think.

I know you all love the scene with Hamilton and the camera but honestly that he will take pictures of a guy and his motorcycle when he is supposed to be taking pics of the girls does have me wonder if Hamilton isn't really truly gay. He is ok with Jake-the-guy and a bit put-off at learning that Jake is a girl.

I actually always saw that as him seeing the bike at first I mean being drawn to that instead of the guy and then afterwards being drawn to this mystery person with the motorcycle, obviously others will disagree but thats how I saw it, not as a scene of him checking out random guy

[wolkenfuehlen]

Originally Posted by iamgre@ (View Post) I know you all love the scene with Hamilton and the camera but honestly that he will take pictures of a guy and his motorcycle when he is supposed to be taking pics of the girls does have me wonder if Hamilton isn't really truly gay. He is ok with Jake-the-guy and a bit put-off at learning that Jake is a girl.

I like it because it somehow shows that Ham is intrigued by Jake from the very first moment. Jake isn't just any guy. And really, Hamilton does fall in love with a guy, somehow, doesn't he? (There was a fanfic that dealt beautifully with that.)

This whole show probably contributed a lot to the unending rumours that Ian is gay. And they get countered with claims he is dating INSERT SUPERBABE CELEBRITY DE JOUR.

Ah, yes, that and him kissing JvdB. But then he couldnÄ't keep his mouth shut on the audio commentary to that scene and instead people thought he was a homophobe for the longest time - still do, probably.

[s e r e n i t y]

Ah, yes, that and him kissing JvdB. But then he couldnÄ't keep his mouth shut on the audio commentary to that scene and instead people thought he was a homophobe for the longest time - still do, probably.

Why? what did he say on the audio commentary?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by iamgre@ (View Post) I know you all love the scene with Hamilton and the camera but honestly that he will take pictures of a guy and his motorcycle when he is supposed to be taking pics of the girls does have me wonder if Hamilton isn't really truly gay. He is ok with Jake-the-guy and a bit put-off at learning that Jake is a girl.

The character of Hamilton Fleming is sexually ambiguous. He'll kiss a guy to save him emotionally. That's the point: it's the right thing to do, even from the perspective of a highly traditional sexual morality it's the lesser of two evils.

And yes, that ambiguity is present in the very first scene with Fleming. What he sees in Pratt, in that scene, is "a raven at my window with a broken wing," as the last line of Dylan's "Love Minus Zero" puts it. That's why the first line of that song is scrawled on Finn's blackboard in "The Beginning" (but not in the UP). Fleming already senses that Pratt is emotionally wounded and in desperate need of saving when he first sees her. That's why he's drawn to her. Even though he assumes she's a guy.

Pratt's bike (subject of his "Nice Bike" comment) is a symbol of her personality; dark, raven-like, forbidden. In the final episode it's completely taken apart and rebuilt, In other words, he saves her.

And then there's the fact that Hamilton is perched atop the door. He's a door-spirit, a Janus, a god of beginnings and endings, of comings and goings. He's there when Krudski first enters the school. Symbolically, that's endlessly rich.

But the best part of the Hamilton-at-the-window scene is that when we first see Hamilton in that scene, HIS CAMERA IS POINTED AT US, at the film camera. WE ARE PRATT. WE ARE THE ONE IN NEED OF SAVING. Ultimately, it's all about Fleming and us, because Pratt is Everyman, Pratt is us. We're in need of saving -- from "realism" and from wrong-headed ideas of what love is. If you don't feel kissed by Fleming in YA, you don't get it. And yeh, it doesn't matter whether you're a guy or a girl, straight or gay. It's about something deeper than sex -- it's above love. That's the point.

Originally Posted by iamgre@ (View Post) Finnegan, for being a joke i still find it odd that people can get themselves so excited at the thought of tipping a cow that they are so convincing they succeed in the joke. New shoes, a new car, a christmas bonus that is twice your annual salary, a new baby, a wedding, all are things to get excited about. But to want to go into a field and tip over a cow. I'm busy shaving my legs that night.

Yeh, it's sort of crude and wacky. It doesn't work well, And it certainly isn't beautiful or profound, the way the ending of "The Beginning" is. I'm very glad the cow-tipping didn't make it into the series as aired. However, its presence in the UP tells us that the dream aspect of YA was there from the start.

[iamgre@]

Originally Posted by s e r e n i t y (View Post) well my modem doesnt look like that obviously but thats the speed I have I think. I actually always saw that as him seeing the bike at first I mean being drawn to that instead of the guy and then afterwards being drawn to this mystery person with the motorcycle, obviously others will disagree but thats how I saw it, not as a scene of him checking out random guy

If you have a 56k modem then it would take you the better part of a day to download a 350MB episode.

Hamilton is intrigued by the motorcycle but he seems to focus a lot on the guy driving the motorcycle. And it is done in the same manner in which he oggles the women. Finnegan, it is most thoughtful but i do often find myself believing that you put more thought into the scenes than did those who wrote, performed, recorded, and edited them.

As for Ian's comments, those who are gay but don't want to admit it and those who are falsely labelled as gay can display much the same response depending on their persona feelings regarding homosexuality. I'm not a **** but i would certainly display some serious ****phobia if i were called a ****. But then there is 'protesting too much'. In the series Hamilton protested a bit too much that nothing was going on with Jake.

[wolkenfuehlen]

Originally Posted by s e r e n i t y (View Post) Why? what did he say on the audio commentary?

Gosh, I can't even remember it properly. I think he just said that he didn't particularly enjoy kissing him? It wasn't offensive, but if you wanted to, you could interpret it as such and loads of people were annoyed by it.

Jessica, I guess in the end it's none of our business if Ian is or isn't gay, much like with Kate M.

[s e r e n i t y]

Gosh, I can't even remember it properly. I think he just said that he didn't particularly enjoy kissing him? It wasn't offensive, but if you wanted to, you could interpret it as such and loads of people were annoyed by it.

So sorta like the James Franco quote after Milk came out? he said he didnt enjoy kissing Sean Penn or something like that and he's a homophobe,

If you have a 56k modem then it would take you the better part of a day to download a 350MB episode.

It takes me 4 hours if the speed is really high and then around 6 normally?
Actually now that I think about I have the 256k,

[s e r e n i t y]

Gosh, I can't even remember it properly. I think he just said that he didn't particularly enjoy kissing him? It wasn't offensive, but if you wanted to, you could interpret it as such and loads of people were annoyed by it.

So sorta like the James Franco quote after Milk came out? he said he didnt enjoy kissing Sean Penn or something like that and he's a homophobe,

If you have a 56k modem then it would take you the better part of a day to download a 350MB episode.

It takes me 4 hours if the speed is really high and then around 6 normally?
Actually now that I think about I have the 256k,

[wolkenfuehlen]

Sort of like that, I guess? I didn't even know about the James quotes. (I gotta rewatch Milk. Soon. )

256k makes much more sense I don't think anyone still has 56k - you'd probably need five minutes to load a website nowadays!

...okay, so I'm heading to bed now. This was fun though!

[s e r e n i t y]

Yeah, something about how Seans moustache made the kiss uncomfortable

Oh yeah, I confused the download speed I have with the modem type,

Good night hun this was fun

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by iamgre@ (View Post) Finnegan, it is most thoughtful but i do often find myself believing that you put more thought into the scenes than did those who wrote, performed, recorded, and edited them.

I wonder about that constantly. That's one reason I haven't tried contacting anybody involved in making YA -- not even Voci, who seems approachable. I will, when I work up the courage, but not yet.

However, whether "intent of the author" fully captures "meaning" in a work is a very old problem in criticism. (There's a large literature on that in literary criticism theory.) The question boils down to how conscious the author is of why or how what he's doing "works," insofar as it does "work." That varies tremendously from author to author, obviously. But I think it's safe to say that art is never fully conscious. We are never fully conscious of why or how anything that we do "works," insofar as it does "work." We cannot fully understand ourselves -- it's a reflexivity problem.

So even if Antin didn't consciously intend some (or even much) of what seems to be in YA, it may still "be there." Antin may have tapped into themes and symbols without being fully conscious of them.

That said, a lot of what I've been doing in my posts on this board is exploring the extent to which Antin's artistry must have been conscious. For example, using the Oxford crest as the Rawley crest on the crew shirts in YA 1 and YA 2 (before the lawyers probably went ape****). Or the anachronisms: that's why I've taken such pains to document the exact models of the 1930s coke machine, the 1940s gas pump, that's why I've pointed out the carburetor cap in an apparently new Chevy truck, and researched that no Chevy trucks were made with carburetors after 1986. None of that stuff can be unintended, it costs too much to do it.

Similarly, when the frist line of a Dylan song is scrawled on the blackboard of a literature teacher -- Finn -- it's conspicuously anomalous. It's a flashing signal that almost breaks the fourth wall. "My love she speaks like silence" has its own meaning for YA -- it's about the way YA communicates. But the last line of that song is "My love she's like a raven at my window with a broken wing." Given that Fleming first sees the emotionally wounded character in YA from a window, while she's dressed all in black cycling gear, that just cannot be an accident, or unconscious. That has to be deliberate and calculated.

And again, Antin spent much of the 1990s making egghead art films with Jefery Levy. That's how he made the transition from actor to writer/producer. See my post about that on this board's "Steven Antin appreciation thread." So it's not too incredible that YA might have a lot of egghead artsy stuff -- notwithstanding that it was marketed to the WB for teen viewing.