alors

This is exactly what I was getting at. I certainly don't mean in the sense of the 1960s/70s era label of "official feminist"; I was thinking more along the lines that I'm not even sure he's consciously aware that this is his outlook, if that makes sense. That it's so ingrained into him by his upbringing, it's just who he is, part of what defines Jaime as Jaime. It's not a forced/false-seeming construct or personality trait for the sake of satisfying some literary checklist of diversity.

Kind of like the post-sexual-revolution women who have careers, do what they want, when they want, would never consider needing/consulting a man on important decisions just because "he's a MAN" yet wrinkle their noses when asked if they're feminists and say "no, that's not me--I'm not a feminist"--because they don't even see that the stereotype of "official feminist" has evolved from not wearing a bra, not wearing makeup, not shaving your legs to where they are today and that by dint of their existence they are de facto "feminists".

And yes, to your point about Cersei--I do have to give her credit for being much more of the self-aware, angry/bitter-she-wasn't-born-a-man feminist stereotype, and as his twin/lover, he would empathize with that.

I did not see "wench" as a "you-are-a-representative-of-all-females-and-I-do-not-respect-them-as-a-group" perjorative so much as a "I-find-you-to-be-an-irritant-who-happens-to-possess-a-vagina-so-I-have-this-handy-term-that-will-most-likely-annoy-you-and-that-pleases-me" term. It's name-calling on an being-assessed-as-an-individual basis vs. a categorical insult.

And as you point out, he understands the crime and horror of rape. As you say, given he is a product of Westeros, it is surprising he does, but he does. I'm curious how he developed this insight.

[snip]

Yes, exactly this. That a man--a Kingsguard--of Westeros would take a woman seriously as an knight at all--let alone give her a priceless gift of Valyrian steel--that just took my breath away and sealed the deal. He makes no differentiation between men and women and what they can and can't do based solely on their sex. That, to me, is what makes him a "feminist", at least as I understand the term.

Currawong

Yes to this. It was an unexpected side to him; no wonder Aunt Genna says that he's not Tywin's "true" son. (In the figurative sense, not that Jaime had another father!)

Yes, that's what I was meaning. He absolutely intends to annoy her, but a major part of that is typical Jaime 'getting-to-understand-you-by-seeing-how-you-react' type of challenge (we saw him do it with Cleos and the 'honest fool or lickspittle?' assessment). Gender has nothing to do with it, as its a tactic he'd use with anyone if necessary. Being at court in KL, he's undoubtedly perfected the art of insulting people in various ways, often without them realising they have been insulted, or of saying something so that people don't know which way to take it.

Absolutely. It's funny, but I can't see Cersei 'getting' this at all, even though she is so much a bra-burning feminist herself. She just cannot believe that Jaime would be attracted to anyone other than her in the first place, let alone a woman who doesn't even look like a woman should. The least he could do was to go off with someone beautiful!! (But then, occasionally women are sometimes prejudiced against other women IRL). For all that she wishes she had been born a man, Cersei tends to judge other women in line with female stereotypes, and will have great difficulty accepting or understanding that Jaime would treat Brienne on such an equal basis.

alors

Why not? I thought the rules were "no profanity". I don't see any profanity. I see asterisks. Am I missing something?


It's funny; I always wondered what I would be like once I "grew up" after college. So I'm here to tell you that now I know. I played D&D and other RPGs and went to fantasy/sci-fi cons in college. Turns out, I still do. And so do all my friends. And we're all in our 40s (or at least late 30s). And we get all oogy over stuff like this. My beloved SO fully tolerates and will even indulge my periodic crushing out on fictional characters. The only difference is now we have real jobs and/or children. In some of the cases the kids are more than thrilled to come along for the ride. In others (my stepkids) they think we're dorks. Then I point out that the 12 1/2 yr old fangirls over _Twilight_ so really she has no room to talk.

It's a wonderful thing.

...the really, really bad thing abt yesterday's procrastination was that I stumbled into my office ca. 7.15 am, started reading/responding to posts, and kept doing so until abt 8.52 am--when I did my drive-by prep for my 9 am (yes) presentation. *That's* my problem--so obsessed I cut it beyond close to the wire.
[/QUOTE]

Currawong

LOL - I'm older than that, and I still have fun. I have a few people who understand the fascination with fantasy works (several in the HP fandom), but others just continue to think I am eccentric! Of course, I just assure them that there are much more harmful ways I could be spending my free time than having fun chatting about books, fictional characters and romances. Besides, I have met some really lovely and interesting people IRL through this sort of thing. And I *so* get you about getting involved and procrastinating about work - I used to do that too.

But if GRRM doesn't do 'something' nice for Jaime and Brienne in the next two books - even if either or both die in the end - I will be Extremely.Upset.Indeed.

They've sometimes been described as outsiders, which I sort of agree with. But when you get through their tough / snarky outer shells, they are also both very much 'damaged' people inside, and in a way, I think that is an important part of their relationship and perhaps why they 'get' each other. Catelyn described Brienne as having 'walls'around her higher than those around Winterfell: we only start to understand what's inside those walls when we get Brienne's POV in AFFC, and see the sort of hurts she's been subjected to over the years. She IS still sweet and innocent in many ways, despite what she's been thorough and had to do, and there's so much gentleness and kindness buried under that tough outer shell. But few will ever get to see or understand this. She even admits that Jaime's taunts cut her deeply, though she also seems willing to forgive him.

And as for Jaime himself - there is just so much hurt and anger buried deep inside. The pride and then the abrupt let-down of joining the KG, all the horror of Aerys's reign, and the terrible things he was forced to witness as a very young man while being powerless to do anything about them. Jaime was incredibly proud to become a knight at such a young age, and I have the impression he took that honour and his oath as a knight very seriously. So being forced to stand by and watch what Aerys did to the innocent would have been quite traumatic on many levels. As he says, he doesn't regret killing Aerys at all, but wearing the tag of 'Kingslayer' ever since has hurt him deeply, especially as he knows that even if he'd just taken Aerys hostage and not killed him, Robert, Ned or even Tywin would have killed Aerys the minute the rebel armies got to KL. Jaime has as many high walls around him as Brienne, it's just that his are a cultivated air of being 'dangerous', full of bravado, confidence, sarcasm and wit, and of course, his skills as a sw0ordsman and fighter. You get the impression that he IS self-aware, but unti the loss of his hand, he's never allowed himself to get too introspective because those dark places are very painful.

Brienne intuitively 'gets' this damaged aspect about Jaime, but he is a little further behind with respect to her. He gets an inkling when Loras tells him that Renly thought she was absurd, but I think he only really comes to appreciate how much she is hiding when Red Ronnet reveals the betrothals.

ABoleyn1230

Pretty accurate for me! I can picture myself at 95, in a nursing home and still shipping. I'll be calling the female nurses wenches, asking where Oathkeeper is, and telling everyone that I dreamed of them. ...And probably still waiting for GRRM's next book.


I have as well. Several I email with multiple times a week, even though our interest in whatever particular fandom brought us together has faded. I've met two in real life. IRL I prefer the company of animals over people, so the nice thing about online people is you can shut the lap top on them any time you want. I've also encountered some really, realllly crazy fans. Those are nice because it makes me feel less nuts.

Happy Comic-Con Day! I don't expect much if anything in the way of our ship, since Gwendoline, Niko, and D&D will be absent. I have a friend who is there and she is going to try to get into the panel, if not she is going to the signing. Kit Harington broke his ankle and won't be there, which she is heartbr oken about. Poor Kit!

Random thought from eight-thousandth re-read: I would assume Brienne heard about

in her early travels of AFFC. I wonder if she suspects Jaime? Given that she knew he thought Tyrion innocent.


We are almost at a new thread, and our runner-up title from last time was "Because... oh, just read the books!". Does anyone object to this? But we need Amorith for the OP updates.

Currawong

ROFL - agree 100%. Had lunch today with one of my HP friends: knew she watched GoT but discovered today that she is absolutely a J/B shipper So we had a great discussion about GoT actors and characters generally, and J/B in particular. It was a long lunch

ETA: Agree with you about what Brienne may suspect. She doesn't waste time thinking about it, so I assume she put two and two together, and decided that it would be just the sort of thing Jaime would do for someone he loved. After all, the crazy man did leap unarmed into a bearpit for her, and he didn't even love her (then)!

IceKat055

This is SO ME YOU!!!

Absolutely gets my vote.

alors

I think he has to. Although I have not seen their names listed as confirmed POVs for TWOW. But the storyline, IMO, is too major to not give at least Jaime (and one would hope Brienne) POVs.


So what's he going to do about it? We don't really know a lot about their next encounter other than the "come with me" moment in ADWD. But that kind of revelation--when you realize what's gone on in the past of someone who you (subconsciously) want to protect--that's an interesting one to explore his reactions to.

As to their similarities and being "walled off"--I concur. This is a major part of what draws them to each other. They recognize this in each other, whether overtly or not. It's part of the bond he can't ever share with Cersei or anyone else.

Jaime was never as shallow as Cersei--I think he always had the ability to see past outward appearances (cf. Tyrion), which is something she cannot do, even with him (pathetic, really). I do think he still had to lose his hand to reach the places he has (introspection); otherwise I think he would have just pushed everything down inside again once he returned to KL. As Cersei notes, it does change him. He looks mostly the same, but he is not the same. Kind of like what happens when veterans come back from the war. The experiences they've had can't not change them, immutably.

...and non sequitur alert: I'm sitting here listening to Talking Heads "This Must Be the Place" and it's reminding me so very much of J/B. A love song without being LURVE. And the sentiment--"Home, is where I want to be/But I guess I'm already there"--I dunno. It just seems to encapsulate how I view their relationship in a way. Thoughts?

iram

lunas_borednow

asterisks in the title is a no no... (I got in trouble over that once... well a stern reminding) and I got some updates on the OP...

oh and alors would you like to be added to our list?

IceKat055

They HAVE to be in this book (), and I hope it's from Brienne's POV. We got the beginning of their relationship from Jaime, then their separate thoughts during their time apart. Now that they're back together, it's Brienne's turn to tell us the story.

ABoleyn1230

But "Because... oh, just read the books!" is safe, isn't it? My vote is for that one because it's rather cheeky. And we want to link to the post Currawong did a few pages back with all of the J/B quotes/snippets.


Apparently it was announced at the GoT panel that S3 will premiere on March 31, 2013. I know it's only one day but it makes me happy knowing it's March instead of April for some reason.

I read awhile ago that GRRM said he held back a Brienne chapter from ADWD for TWOW. It's hard to say what I prefer because I love being inside BOTH their heads! And I hope the narrative picks right up from "I can take you to her, ser".

Casting news! Anton Lesser as Qyburn. Nothing about Vargo...

Currawong

Yes - and he certainly 'reacted' to Red Ronnet! I do hope he gets to talk to Brienne about it all, because I figure she just 'might' open up to him, or at least give him the bare bones so he can draw his own conclusions. Or more likely push / prod her with a few 'Jaime style' penetrating questions

Oh yes. Don't think Cersei has ever realised how Jaime was changed deep inside by the Aerys experiences, but then of course, she herself was only young. And although Jaime has been on campaign before now, he's always come back victorious and she's never had to face up to anyone with those PTSD effects. I once read a fanfic where one of the things he eventually murmurs to Brienne (in bed!) is that he had to lose something in order to find something much more valuable.

Well, I was listening to one of my old Seekers CDs the other day, and I was struck by the lyrics to I know I'll Never Find Another You. THAT to me is (eventual) perfect Jaime / Brienne! Link: THE SEEKERS lyrics - I'll Never Find Another You
There's also their World of Our Own, especially the reference to leaving their sorrows behind - World Of Our Own lyrics - The Seekers | All The Lyrics


ETA: For the next thread title, I rather like iram's suggestion of "because some boys like challenges!"

ABoleyn1230

Who on earth would write something like that?! *whistles* *looks around*

Currawong

ROFL - I couldn't remember the title of the fic or the author, I just remembered that it was a perfect summary of Jaime,, and the J/B relationship.