lunas_borednow

The Bear Pit by Marc Simonetti

ABoleyn1230

I want this as a mural in my house!!!!!!

Currawong

No, it's not crazy at all. Oathkeeper is not just a fine sword, it's Valyrian steel, which is revered everywhere. Jaime could not have given her anything else that would have meant as much and showed his recognition of her worth as both a person and as a 'knight'. It's amusing to see that whole scene, because he first tells her that as the Kingslayer, when he says she has honor, it is 'like a whore vouchsafing your maidenhood'. Then he promptly gives her Oathkeeper. Whatever the rest of the world thinks of Jaime's word and honor, everyone knows that he would never, ever give away a sword like that to just anyone. Ah well, they say that actions speak louder than words!

Yes. I don't know whether she was aware that Renly was gay: she's still fairly naive about some things, but she probably saw him with Loras a few times when she was in the Rainbow Guard. I sort of hope she never finds out that Renly thought of her as absurd, according to what Loras tells Jaime - "a woman dressed in a man's mail and pretending to be a knight". Or at least she only finds out when she is emotionally more secure and better to cope with that sort of rejection. You know, like when she's safely married to Jaime, ROFL. Or at least in some sort of deeper relationship with Jaime, where they both openly acknowledge their feelings.

alors

Ditto. Love listening to that. It's somehow mocking, yet sexy, intimate.




Strangely, I just posted something along these lines on Westeros earlier today:

I do think there will be some sort of "consummation" of the relationship before either a) one of them (for some reason I don't think it will be both) dies tragically or b) they both live, but realize that they have greater obligations to the rest of the world which will not allow them to pursue anything more than a chaste and profoundly deep friendship. The true star-crossed lovers of stories immemorial. By "consummation" I don't mean they're going to DO IT, or even necessarily overtly acknowledge their feelings for one another, but rather something will occur--finely nuanced statements that leave more said by what is unsaid, or a simple touch--maybe even a chaste kiss--but something where they both realize and admit to themselves their feelings about the other, and realize the other's feelings for them, without actually coming out and SAYING it--if that makes sense.

The total romance in the capital R sense of it--kind of like _Gallipoli_, if you've seen that--I think of it as the most romantic movie I've ever seen.



Now that says a lot. Very middle-school/high-school in its way. And really? Ayn Rand? Generally while I can appreciate her philosophy in some regard, I haven't ever really thought much of her as a novelist. Who knew?

Currawong

Ah yes - saw that post and liked it! I can quite see that sort of thing happening, especially if Jaime somehow survives and remains in the Kingsguard. Equally, you have a hard time finding any marriage in Westeros where the parties are both happy - Ned and Catelyn probably came closest, but even theirs was an arranged marriage and not the first choice of spouse for either of them. It would be rather nice to see J/B somehow end up together simply because it would be a 'normal' relationship, born out of mutual respect and developing love. Not to mention it's a neat reversal of the classic 'Beauty and the beast' trope.

And I totally get you with Gallipoli !! It's one of Peter Weir's earliest movies, and one of his very best, because he absolutely 'gets' the true bonding between his characters. (That freeze frame shot at the end had us all in tears). Digressing a little, but on issue, I always felt that none of the Harry Potter movie directors or writers ever "got" the important male-friendship and 'mateship' aspect of Harry and Ron, because they kept playing up the boy/girl romance aspects. By making Ron into a purely comic character, they missed that deep friendship. I kept thinking wistfully of movies like Galllipoli and Master and Commander, and wishing desperately that Peter Weir could have done one of the HP movies, because he is just so good at showing those intense relationships as true friendships, where so much is unspoken and just simply understood. It is Romantic with a capital R, and it's very, very hard to do really well, because these days, so many people expect/ assume a movie relationship must have sex, sex and SEX as the key driving forces.

ETA: Perhaps we should suggest that the GoT producers go have a quiet yarn to Peter Weir about filming Jaime / Brienne?!

Finally, welcome to this board, alors! Always nice to welcome a new J/B fan.

IceKat055

It's beautiful! And it's for July - one year from this month. We'll have had S3 by then, too!

Though I found myself comparing it to the art done by Evolvana - - and I hate to say it, but I think she captured the moment (as I envision it in my head) a little better.



Jaime with the human bone in his (left) hand, straddling Brienne in protection, making sure the bear gets to him before her...it's to-the-letter how GRRM describes the scene. Plus I love the dark towers of Harrenhal looming in the background, and the skulls scattered around Brienne.

But they're BOTH gorgeous. And we got a whole, entire month in the official calendar. It's a beautiful thing.

If Jaime had a pot of ink, he'd have totally dipped Brienne's pigtails in it by now.

alors

Yes, I quite forgot to even address the "Beauty and the beast" trope--I really like what GRRM is doing with this here. Part of why I hope it ends with at least the "best possible result" (see below) so it won't have seemed like a "fluke" or that Jaime was temporarily mad, or that once he lost his hand he "settled", etc. That Brienne actually *is* the "best he can do", but truly, no one could do any better than her.

Part of that has to do with repressed 20th-century morality, where in earlier times intense same-sex relationships were par for the course and no one really gave it a lot of thought (whereas these days it's assumed that of COURSE anything that intense must also be sexual in nature as well, hence the demise of the same-sex "romantic friendship"). Now, I don't think that extended to heterosexual boy/girl pairs in the way these two have it bad for each other (opposite sex intense/romantic friendships have historically been looked at with suspicion), but it's that sort of idea. And the "romance" derives not only from the intensity between Jaime and Brienne in ASOIAF, or in _Gallipoli_ from the male bonds to each other in wartime--these are people who would do anything for each other, up to and including giving their own lives without regret; part of what makes it capital R "Romantic" is the idealistic futility of it all (it never ends happily--cf. the hopelessness in that final freeze-frame of _Gallipoli_--honestly, having J and B be marginally content and have productive lives without each other is almost "happy" in this context)--it's the overarching romance between not only people one-to-one but the relationship between one and one's country, one's principles, one's ideals, etc. It just seems to always spell D-O-O-M. Not sure if that makes sense exactly. It's early and I'm just on my first cup of coffee.

By-the-by, I am a big fan of the tragic/bittersweet variety of romance; two of my very favorite novels are 1. James Baldwin, _Giovanni's Room_ and 2. Tanith Lee, _The Silver Metal Lover_, just to give you an idea of how my tastes run. Not that I like to sit there and cry my eyes out, but I find these sorts of books have what I think of as the "best result possible" (i.e., given the parameters) as opposed to the "best possible result"(in a theoretical vacuum), which rarely happens.



Yeah, like that will happen. I can dream...

Thanks. It's good to be here.

IceKat055

This just never gets old:

ABoleyn1230

SO HE DID. So he ******* did!


Welcome, Alors!


It's funny because with everything else, I also prefer tragic love stories. I loathe predictable, saccharine, happily-ever-after endings. But with Jaime and Brienne, I think because I am sooo attached to them, I want that. Probably because I know it won't in GRRM's perilous world. Damn, I love these two so much.... I should probably see a therapist, lol.

Here is a new fic which I found so moving and bittersweet (mild sexual content fyi)
A Love Song You may need a tissue or two.



Are these calendars something GRRM puts out? Or HBO?

alors

That just makes me SQUEEEEE

and thank you.

So, yeah, I'm 45 and I *still* fall in love with fictional charcters. I obsess, it consumes me. Been like that since high school, when I fell in love with Mercutio when we readRomeo and Juliet. In college it was Elric of Melnibone. Now it's Jaime and the Jaime/Brienne unit. Byronic heroes, snide, snarky men, bad boys... always had a thing for them.

Earlier this morning, I was supposed to be prepping for a client WebEx presentation (I work at home). Instead of reviewing my Powerpoints, I was...um...surfing Jaime/Brienne boards and reading J/B fanfic...um...yeah. And writing posts, and pondering if and when GRRM will ever finish the series, and potential outcomes and then I had to, you know, go WORK <feh>.

I am halfway through and it's beautifully written so far. UPDATE: I finished and it was stunning and now I'm SAD.

IceKat055

It is ******* known.

Oh wow.

I think they're commissioned by GRRM. Here are all the months from the 2012 calendar. Which I have. And now I need the 2013!

Currawong

Oh yes - "So he did." was the point at which I *so* fell in love with Jaime. His POVs until then had been fascinating and quite unexpected, but that moment was just so crazily stupid and wonderful.

Snide, snarky men ... with wicked senses of humour. For all that Jaime has his dark side, I think he would be a fun person and very good company - once he relaxed and didn't have to be on his guard so much. You see that in AFFC when he is away from KL and out in the field: he's a different person in an environment where he feels at ease, and his men obviously like and respect him. He treats his squires well, with a mixture of discipline, understanding and good humour, and I love that part where he's just wandering through the camp, chatting to the men, giving advice, having a bet on their games, and so on. But there are obviously very few people in his life with whom he is totally relaxed and can be himself.

Which is one of the reasons I really like Jaime and Brienne together, and why I feel that their relationship has a good chance of ending up as a 'mature' one (GRRM permitting of course )

Falling passionately in luurrve (or lust) is one thing, but in the long-term, it is mutual respect, trust, understanding and simply liking each other that really matters, which also means accepting each other's faults. I know ASOIAF fans propose all sorts of 'ships', but for me, J/B is the only one that as yet has those elements of respect, understanding and acceptance that are crucial to a mature relationship. Cat and Ned had that: it was an arranged marriage, certainly, but it was clear that they grew into 'love' as they came to understand and respect each other.

Jaime and Brienne are still awkward with each other in various ways, but there is already a good basis for their feelings to develop into 'true' love rather than a saccharine romance. Brienne may be a romantic girl inside at times, and she is confused by her growing feelings for Jaime, but she is not suffering from any idealistic delusions that she can somehow 'save' a bad boy from himself. And I don't think Jaime is under any delusions that he can turn Brienne into some elegant court beauty, LOL. (Though he might end up being surprised at some of her hidden qualities and skills, like singing!)

alors

I just keep reading and re-reading that "A Love Song" story over and over, and I think the author just totally captured the Jaime character as he actually is. One thing jumped out at me (and you do see it in canon, but it hit me like a ton of bricks here): Jaime Lannister is a feminist. Discuss.

Currawong

Well, I tend to be very wary of labels such as 'feminist', LOL (everyone has a different interpretation of the term!), so I assume that in a broad sense you mean that he generally supports or advocates equal rights and opportunities for women, or at least respects their wishes to be seen as equals.

I don't know that I would label Jaime as a 'feminist' as such, but I have always had the impression that he doesn't see women merely as objects, or as vessels for producing children. His first reactions to Brienne are interesting, because at first glance he seems to be anything but a feminist. Yet when you look closer, he's never told Brienne that her place is at home, bearing children and being a good and obedient wife. Indeed, he actually challenged her quite early about whether she was denying her sex - and that of itself is a very modern feminist attitude. Some early 'burn the bra' type feminists almost seemed to want to be men, and their behaviour and attitude alienated many people accordingly, including other women. Today, we have grown beyond that: there is no need to deny one's femininity and 'be' masculine in order to have and demand equal rights as a person.

Jaime's attitude to Brienne is quite surprising, given the Westerosi society in which women are often seen as being traded off like sheep (or horses to be 'ridden' as required, according to Cersei). But it is also understandable, because the one woman who has had the most influence on his life until now is Cersei. And though I am reluctant to credit her with any sort of good influence on Jaime, you have to acknowledge that Cersei is 110% feminist, much of it the old "I wish I was a man!" style.

With his twin and lover as a woman like that, it is no wonder that Jaime doesn't see women in general as just goods to be traded, and regards them as people who need to be treated as individuals. Certainly he understands that aspect of society, but it doesn't mean he likes it, and as Tywin finds out in ASOS, Jaime is not going to be a part of it. No. Way.

Certainly 'wench' is a disparaging term, but it's essentially a "who are YOU?" challenge to Brienne rather than an indication of seeing women as subservient. As he and Brienne doggedly trade 'wench' and 'kingslayer' insults, they are each demanding acceptance of themselves as people, not as mere labels.

And as we get to know Jaime, we see that he is surprisingly perceptive and sympathetic. The way he understands how Brienne would be damaged by rape: the real hurt would be psychological, deep inside, not temporary physical hurt. So he tries to protect her, and gives her the advice that we know comes form his own experience in dealing with some terrible things in life - go apart from it, go into a deep inner place where they can't hurt you. Again, its a very surprising attitude for Westeros.

Later on of course, we see how he treats Pia. He reflects that she's probably slept with half his father's army, but he treats her gently, and demands that Peck do the same. And he executes a man who has raped her - to the man's surprise, and Pia's lasting gratitude. This is really unusual, given the way so many men in Westeros treat women, even high-born ones. Was this partly because of some long-held guilt about Tysha? Hard to say, but you wonder what Tywin would have said about his son's treatment of a commoner woman like Pia!

Of course, the biggest "Jaime is a feminist" example is when he gives Oathkeeper to Brienne and challenges her with the quest for Sansa. I love the way he tells her that she can leave KL and do whatever she likes, including going home to her father in Tarth. Giving her Oathkeeper plus a quest is the ultimate acceptance of who she is as her own person: the fact that she's a woman doesn't enter into it. I've always loved how he knew what she'd do, as we see in AFFC when Brienne reflects how well he'd provided for her with a really good horse, money, arms and equipment, and an authority from the King. Jaime knew her all too well and had obviously made plans accordingly.

ABoleyn1230

RE: that fan fic, I thought the characterization was excellent. Jaime can be a really hard character to write. It's tricky to maintain his sharp wit without making him a comedian, while allowing in the little bit of softness he shows towards Brienne without making him mushy. Although, I confess I can stand a little much because given the actual books, we need an escape sometimes.


It's too bad "So he ******* did. It is ******* known." can't be our next thread title!

Speaking of new threads, we'll be ready for a new one son, and where has everyone gone? Bri, Amorith, Iram....


A few years ago I decided I was "too old" to be a fangirl and read/write fan fiction and squee. I vowed I would stop. That lasted all of three months. Then I swore off again and lasted about a year.... then fell head over heels for Jaime/Brienne. I'm hopeless. I also work from home and fall into the procrastination trap.


I loved that part so, so much. It makes me wish Brienne was there, too. She could see (and admire) leader!Jaime, the more relaxed atmosphere would allow them to just 'hang out'.
I re-read their chapters in ASoS and AFfC so much, it's like my pacifier/blanket/comfort item.

Wow, I didn't even think of the Tysha-Pia connection! I also think it is notable that he finds himself aroused by her at one point, as well as being intrigued by Hildy in ADWD. It's not that his feelings are strong, just that he has began to react like a normal man now that the Cersei Fog in his brain is starting to lift.