[clarkson_fan]

Well, every season for me is my worst DJ season. I mean, they are more tolerable in season 1, but there is still so much about them season 1 that even gets on my nerves. God, almost all of their conversations make me roll my eyes. They are just so tiring! Even by the end of the first episode, they were. To me, at least.

[firewall]

I only found them tolerable during S1... but that's only because they hadn't been together yet! I never had a problem with them being friends. I think I stopped finding them tolerable once I saw real chemistry in Double Date.

[Rachey1984]

I actually really liked Dawson and Joey in S1. I loved their friendship and the way Joey pined after Dawson, I really felt for her. Joey was definitely my favourite character during the first year. Like Rach mentioned, it was when they got together that it became annoying. I did enjoy the first few episodes of S2, their relationship was kind of cute but as soon as the break-up happened they just turned boring and obsessive with each other, more Dawson for Joey to start with. Then the repetitive conversations started and carried on to the very end of the show.

The real love story of the show was always Pacey and Joey but it was hard to see that during S2, seeing as they acted like they barely knew each other! I never thought the show would even experiment with PJo, man am I glad they did.

[Wes&FredFan]

D/J ruined the Sophie B. Hawkins song "As I Lay Me Down" for me. The fact that it was their "doing it" song .... Ewwww.

Then of course he chooses to leave out the little minor detail that he HAS A GIRLFRIEND in California! Charming guy, to lecture Joey on her maturity! I once got into a lengthy debate with an avid D/J-er who didn't care that he cheated on another girl in order to sleep with Joey. I pointed out that he lied to Joey! She didn't answer that one.

Yeah, I hate D/J .

[Rachey1984]

Originally Posted by Wes&FredFan (View Post) D/J ruined the Sophie B. Hawkins song "As I Lay Me Down" for me. The fact that it was their "doing it" song .... Ewwww.

Did they change this for the DVD? I must have only watched this scene a handful of times but don't remember this song being used. I love this song. I do remember it being used in S1 when Jen was sitting on the dock, a beautiful shot.

I haven't had a good old debate with a DJ-er for a long time, they were always fun. Dawson and Joey are meant to be best friends and that is all.

[firewall]

Originally Posted by Wes&FredFan (View Post) D/J ruined the Sophie B. Hawkins song "As I Lay Me Down" for me. The fact that it was their "doing it" song .... Ewwww.

I have obviously completely blacked this fact out of my brain. That scene causes me hysterical blindness and deafness!

[clarkson_fan]

Hmm, i don't know of this song. I'll have to listen to it. But if i like it and its was in the DJ hole in the sheets act, then...ugh!

[barbeegurl00]

I think the main thing that really pissed me off about D/J (among many, MANY things) was that it was quite clear that Joey was done with the relationship from season three on. From then on, they just continued to beat a dead horse and add drama, giving bones to the D/J fans and instilling fear into P/J fans, but nothing EVER came out of it. The season five "revival"? Completely flat and wishy-washy. The one night stand that blinded us all? Just torture with an abrupt ending. And then we were expected to actually believe that Dawson was a contender for Joey's life partner five years later? The boy who she dated for four months total back when she was sixteen and never actually dated since, or really tried to? PLEEEEASE.

When Joey was with Pacey, she may have been overly concerned with Dawson's feelings and their friendship, but her love NEVER altered from Pacey, and I don't think it would have if Pacey had not taken it upon himself to end the relationship. Only then did Joey, heartbroken and scared, slink to her former childhood self and consider the idea of Dawson again. And of course, nothing came out of it because Joey didn't really want him. Nor did she ever truly pursue a relationship with him. EVER. AGAIN. Every time Joey was even considering Dawson after season two, she was clearly regressing in character and turning into a scared little child. But once she grew a spine, she was always right out the door!

And these two were supposed to be some kind of romantic threat?

[fisher & sons]

Nothing bothers me more than how Dawson reacted to finding out that Joey and Pacey fell for each other as if it happened while he and Joey were in a relationship. She was her own person. She didn't owe him anything. Pacey on the other hand did owe Dawson honesty. I don't think he needed to ask permission, because its not as though you can just decided to stop loving someone when your best friend says its not okay. But there is that code where you don't date your friend's ex. And then Dawson goes and tries to make things right with Joey! Ugh. The end of season 3 really pisses me off.

[Seersha]

Originally Posted by NikitaWitter (View Post) Nothing bothers me more than how Dawson reacted to finding out that Joey and Pacey fell for each other as if it happened while he and Joey were in a relationship. She was her own person. She didn't owe him anything. Pacey on the other hand did owe Dawson honesty. I don't think he needed to ask permission, because its not as though you can just decided to stop loving someone when your best friend says its not okay. But there is that code where you don't date your friend's ex. And then Dawson goes and tries to make things right with Joey! Ugh. The end of season 3 really pisses me off.

Totally agree with you here.

I don't think Pacey needed to tell Dawson about his feelings for Joey or that he owed Dawson that honesty until after both he and Joey had agreed to pursue those feelings. At that stage I think they owed Dawson the truth. They didn't have to ask his permission or get his approval, but they needed to let him know what was going on. BTW, I don't even think Pacey and Joey were sneaking around for all that long - days maybe? But certainly not weeks.

The problem is Dawson's reaction was totally irrational. If he was upset just that they didn't tell him, I'd be more understanding. But he reacted as if it was the worst possible betrayal ever, seemed to think it was OK to issue ultimatums and then went on to try and 'win' Joey back as if it was a contest.

I think what a lot of people are annoyed about when it comes to Dawson's reaction is that he seemed happy to forgive Joey and in fact want to rebuild that friendship, but held Pacey up to another set of standards and refused to barely look at the guy for most of the end of season 3. IMO, Pacey and Joey are both equal parties in deciding to pursue a relationship. It's not like Pacey made Joey fall in love with him, it just happened.

Therefore I think it just seemed very poor of Dawson to brush whatever part Joey played in that so-called 'betrayal' under the rug completely while acting simultaneously as if Pacey was the worst person in the world.

[clarkson_fan]

Originally Posted by barbeegurl00 (View Post) I think the main thing that really pissed me off about D/J (among many, MANY things) was that it was quite clear that Joey was done with the relationship from season three on. From then on, they just continued to beat a dead horse and add drama, giving bones to the D/J fans and instilling fear into P/J fans, but nothing EVER came out of it. The season five "revival"? Completely flat and wishy-washy. The one night stand that blinded us all? Just torture with an abrupt ending. And then we were expected to actually believe that Dawson was a contender for Joey's life partner five years later? The boy who she dated for four months total back when she was sixteen and never actually dated since, or really tried to? PLEEEEASE. When Joey was with Pacey, she may have been overly concerned with Dawson's feelings and their friendship, but her love NEVER altered from Pacey, and I don't think it would have if Pacey had not taken it upon himself to end the relationship. Only then did Joey, heartbroken and scared, slink to her former childhood self and consider the idea of Dawson again. And of course, nothing came out of it because Joey didn't really want him. Nor did she ever truly pursue a relationship with him. EVER. AGAIN. Every time Joey was even considering Dawson after season two, she was clearly regressing in character and turning into a scared little child. But once she grew a spine, she was always right out the door! And these two were supposed to be some kind of romantic threat?

I totally agree with this. That is one of the many things that seemed unrealistic with DJ. Like where do you see kids at fifteen, sixteen years old proclaiming to be "Soulmates" and that they were destined to be together forever. Thats just stupid. Because we all know how young and unsure we are in our teenage years and our lives are only just beginning.

It just spells disaster when you and others put it into your head that you are meant to be with someone forever when you are that young and scared and not ready for the real world. Its stupid of both Dawson and Joey to do that and to not only let themselves, but others tell them what they are to each other.

I also think that frankly, if they had met later in life, there wouldn't have been all this "Soulmate" crap in the first place and they would have been able to figure out that they aren't meant to be together. And it probably wouldn't have been all drawn out and dramatic as it was. And they wouldn't have hurt so many others in the process of figuring out exactly what they were to each other. And they wouldn't have held on so tightly.

And just like you said, Joey was scared and she went back to Dawson, because he represented her childhood. Again, if they and everyone around them hadn't put it in their heads so relentlessly, they wouldn't have gone back and held on so many times, i think.

And with Pacey and Joey i love how they never put a label on what they are. Yeah, they had "True love" and i think they are each other's true loves, but they never said "You are my true love" or "She/He's my true love" they just told each other that they were in love with each other. It wasn't defined, they didn't have to be together because it was expected of them or what they were always led to believe. They fell in real love with each other. They never had that stupid label put on them, and the phrase "True Love" was never beaten to death over and over and over again.

Nothing bothers me more than how Dawson reacted to finding out that Joey and Pacey fell for each other as if it happened while he and Joey were in a relationship. She was her own person. She didn't owe him anything. Pacey on the other hand did owe Dawson honesty. I don't think he needed to ask permission, because its not as though you can just decided to stop loving someone when your best friend says its not okay. But there is that code where you don't date your friend's ex. And then Dawson goes and tries to make things right with Joey! Ugh. The end of season 3 really pisses me off.

THIS!! yes. I always hate how Dawson treated her like she wasn't her own person, like she belonged to him, like she was literally attached to him. Like she was his property, when she was in no way, shape, or form "his." She wasn't anybody's. And i hate how Joey just let him do that to her, let him think that. In my mind, its one of Joey's weakest moments letting Dawson manipulate her like that and giving her that horrible ultimatum.

And the thing that really bothers me is how he gave that ultimatum like they were couple and he had the right to that. I can never stress enough that they weren't even a couple!! So that ultimatum is the worst of the worst. Ugh.

Totally agree with you here. I don't think Pacey needed to tell Dawson about his feelings for Joey or that he owed Dawson that honesty until after both he and Joey had agreed to pursue those feelings. At that stage I think they owed Dawson the truth. They didn't have to ask his permission or get his approval, but they needed to let him know what was going on. BTW, I don't even think Pacey and Joey were sneaking around for all that long - days maybe? But certainly not weeks. The problem is Dawson's reaction was totally irrational. If he was upset just that they didn't tell him, I'd be more understanding. But he reacted as if it was the worst possible betrayal ever, seemed to think it was OK to issue ultimatums and then went on to try and 'win' Joey back as if it was a contest. I think what a lot of people are annoyed about when it comes to Dawson's reaction is that he seemed happy to forgive Joey and in fact want to rebuild that friendship, but held Pacey up to another set of standards and refused to barely look at the guy for most of the end of season 3. IMO, Pacey and Joey are both equal parties in deciding to pursue a relationship. It's not like Pacey made Joey fall in love with him, it just happened. Therefore I think it just seemed very poor of Dawson to brush whatever part Joey played in that so-called 'betrayal' under the rug completely while acting simultaneously as if Pacey was the worst person in the world.

All of this. Totally agree with it.

Yeah, he totally makes Pacey out to be this horrible bad guy that only wants sex. I hate that. And he makes it seem like Joey was this poor little innocent girl and Pacey used her or something like that. Like she can't make her own decisions and Pacey somehow hypnotized her so he could have sex with her. UGH!!

I think Dawson and Pacey were never really that great of friends. The big evidence being at the end of season 3 when Dawson is threatened, he says all the worst things he could possibly say about Pacey and he never even apologizes for it. Like he has the right to say these things just because its Joey. It is so not right!! At all.

And i think it was even before that, like in season 2 episode 16, in his drunken rambling he totally insults Pacey and says that he actually wants things to be bad for Pacey, because his life is supposed to be better. How despicable. What kind of friend is that? To actually want the worst for him. And they say you always say the truth when you're drunk. Dawson is such an a-hole.

And how he totally just brushes Joey's part in their relationship under the rug so it is all somehow Pacey's fault, its his whole thing with putting Joey on this pedestal, like she can do no wrong. He thinks of her as perfect, when he shouldn't. Human beings are not perfect and its okay if you're not. And Joey is far from perfect and he doesn't see that.

Like you said, Pacey didn't make Joey fall in love with him. She could have rejected him flat out if she didn't feel that way (And she did push him away for a while out of fear. Typical Joey ) but she didn't. She felt something for him and i hate how Dawson didn't even seem to consider it and thought that Joey would actually just be with Pacey for sex. Like, does he know her at all? That just pisses me off even more.

[barbeegurl00]

I think it's insanely messed up that Dawson (and Andie) got so pissed off at Pacey and Joey together when they had actually pursued other people first. hello, does anyone remember Eve?! As soon as Dawson got back into the city in season three he was obsessed with gettin' down with Eve and shoving Joey aside! She (and the whole school) even saw them in a half-dressed attempt to do the nasty in the school auditorium!

I know the writers hated the Eve storyline and still call it a huge mistake, but it happened on the show and was a reality in this fictional world. If I were Joey, I'd tell my jealous ex-boyfriend to go to hell. But I forgot, they have this supposed "transcendent connection" that we didn't see for the past one-two seasons, and thus she needs his "permission" to move on.



And Dawson didn't just punish Pacey throughout season three. For the rest of the series, he never really let it go, until the finale five years into the future. Their big fight in season six was just loaded with resentment, and Dawson even brought up the "betrayal" AGAIN. In season four, Pacey went up and apologized to Dawson and the guy couldn't even look him in the eyes, just giving an "until then" snub. And the minute Pacey left town, calling Dawson to say goodbye, Dawson moves on Joey, just after telling Pacey how much Joey was thinking about him every two seconds. Way to kiss a girl on the rebound, dude, and turn yourself into the consolation prize you said you didn't want to be.

But did anyone criticize Dawson for moving in on Joey after her year long, very serious relationship with Pacey that was often plagued by Dawson? Nope. Because Dawson and Joey were "soulmates" and therefore did not have the same rules about "betrayal" associated with them. Apparently.

[Seersha]

I think it's insanely messed up that Dawson (and Andie) got so pissed off at Pacey and Joey together when they had actually pursued other people first. hello, does anyone remember Eve?! As soon as Dawson got back into the city in season three he was obsessed with gettin' down with Eve and shoving Joey aside! She (and the whole school) even saw them in a half-dressed attempt to do the nasty in the school auditorium! I know the writers hated the Eve storyline and still call it a huge mistake, but it happened on the show and was a reality in this fictional world.

I agree. He rejected Joey, and pursued Eve, fairly happy to have a bit more 'fun'. Then he also tried to kiss Kate, Jack's ex. Plus Dawson didn't seem to have a problem with Joey moving on with AJ. In reality Dawson didn't necessarily have an issue with them not being a romantic couple in S3 (in fact he was the one who said they needed time apart, then asked Pacey to look out for her). His problem was with the fact that it was Pacey, not necessarily that she was moving on. Maybe he knew on some level that because it was Pacey, he was more of a threat than anyone else could be.

And Dawson didn't just punish Pacey throughout season three. For the rest of the series, he never really let it go, until the finale five years into the future. Their big fight in season six was just loaded with resentment, and Dawson even brought up the "betrayal" AGAIN. In season four, Pacey went up and apologized to Dawson and the guy couldn't even look him in the eyes, just giving an "until then" snub. And the minute Pacey left town, calling Dawson to say goodbye, Dawson moves on Joey, just after telling Pacey how much Joey was thinking about him every two seconds. Way to kiss a girl on the rebound, dude, and turn yourself into the consolation prize you said you didn't want to be. But did anyone criticize Dawson for moving in on Joey after her year long, very serious relationship with Pacey that was often plagued by Dawson? Nope. Because Dawson and Joey were "soulmates" and therefore did not have the same rules about "betrayal" associated with them. Apparently.

THIS. Dawson proved himself to be the biggest hypocrite when he seemed to be OK with kissing Joey, who was vulnerable after her break-up with Pacey (whom she had been dating for almost a year). Didn't he accuse Pacey of being a lowlife for basically moving in on Joey when she was apparently in a vulnerable state? Double standards indeed.

[Rachey1984]

I agree with all of your recent posts. I don't have much more to add except yes, yes, yes!

The biggest pet hate I have with Dawson and Joey is definitely the way the feel like they own each other. I was watching S3 the other night and forgot how much they squabble during 'Escape from Witch Island' - they're going back and forth about what they mean to each other but the bottom line is Dawson doesn't want to be with Joey at that point, he's not interested in her and they're not that involved in each other's lives.

Jump to the next episode 'Four to Tango' and all of a sudden Joey is his soulmate again and he's horrified at the thought of Joey and Pacey being together. I love the way Pacey spells it out to him that no guy is going to ask Dawson's permission before making a move on Joey. "She's a freakin' goddess man...". I definitely think Dawson had a huge jealousy issue with Pacey and that was brewing for a long time before the love triangle emerged.

As for Coda...

[Ali]

Any DJo scenes I should gif?

Originally Posted by LiaRaye (View Post) We should make a drinking game out their scenes. Every time one of them says, "What are we doing?" "What are we?" or "I don't know!" you take a drink. That would be the only way their scenes would actually provide solid entertainment for me

Originally Posted by Rachey1984 (View Post) That sounds like a fun idea Or maybe everytime they say the word 'soulmate'

Ahahaha, WIN!

Originally Posted by LiaRaye (View Post) And don't get me wrong, I love Dawson and Joey both individually. I love Dawson and I think he's a great person. It's just together, they make everything seem so complicated, when it's not. You're either friends or you're a couple. If you can't seem to get out of the in-between, then I think you aren't meant to.

ITA.

Originally Posted by barbeegurl00 (View Post) I think the main thing that really pissed me off about D/J (among many, MANY things) was that it was quite clear that Joey was done with the relationship from season three on. From then on, they just continued to beat a dead horse and add drama, giving bones to the D/J fans and instilling fear into P/J fans, but nothing EVER came out of it. The season five "revival"? Completely flat and wishy-washy. The one night stand that blinded us all? Just torture with an abrupt ending. And then we were expected to actually believe that Dawson was a contender for Joey's life partner five years later? The boy who she dated for four months total back when she was sixteen and never actually dated since, or really tried to? PLEEEEASE. When Joey was with Pacey, she may have been overly concerned with Dawson's feelings and their friendship, but her love NEVER altered from Pacey, and I don't think it would have if Pacey had not taken it upon himself to end the relationship. Only then did Joey, heartbroken and scared, slink to her former childhood self and consider the idea of Dawson again. And of course, nothing came out of it because Joey didn't really want him. Nor did she ever truly pursue a relationship with him. EVER. AGAIN. Every time Joey was even considering Dawson after season two, she was clearly regressing in character and turning into a scared little child. But once she grew a spine, she was always right out the door! And these two were supposed to be some kind of romantic threat?

WORD.

Originally Posted by Seersha (View Post) He rejected Joey, and pursued Eve, fairly happy to have a bit more 'fun'. Then he also tried to kiss Kate, Jack's ex. Plus Dawson didn't seem to have a problem with Joey moving on with AJ. In reality Dawson didn't necessarily have an issue with them not being a romantic couple in S3 (in fact he was the one who said they needed time apart, then asked Pacey to look out for her). His problem was with the fact that it was Pacey, not necessarily that she was moving on. Maybe he knew on some level that because it was Pacey, he was more of a threat than anyone else could be.

This is why I don't buy Dawson's feelings for Joey. He was perfectly happy not being involved in her life and he was okay with her moving on with AJ, but when she falls for Pacey (whose only apparent purpose in life is to make Dawson look good and feel better about himself) Dawson magically cares again. Blah, I hate DJo.