mary ksand

I completely agree with everything you said. Season 5 SL for LP and their actions towards each other just didn't fit their story and build up they got in previous seasons. After everything they went through and after proving that they can overcome any drama that is forced on them, I just couldn't buy them giving up on each other so fast and then acting so immature when they needed to deal with their problems. Nor could I ever find it in character that Lucas seemed to hurt Peyton on purpose and enjoy it. Peyton as character almost turned into season 2-3 Brooke as if she inherited her bitchy-ness and her way to deal with things (like when she was rude to Lindsey. At least writers didn't jump the shark and Peyton apologized afterwards, but it doesn't take away the fact that writers imo came up with a lot of OOC and contrived stuff for Peyton, ruining the beauty and uniqueness of her character). There were few nice moments, like the ones you mentioned, but they went hand in hand with the bad ones and it made me hard to enjoy them. I too wish that Mark had dealt with their issues better in S6, but on the other hand season 5 drama seemed so contrived, OOC and unnecessary to me that I'm partly glad they never came back to it as if it didn't exist at all. And LP came back to being Lucas and Peyton I knew and loved.

And I know what you mean. I got to experience that with few other fandoms. And taking that I often get extra defensive over characters and couples I love as immature as it can be of me ( ) I just try to stay away from places where I know I will find stuff that upsets me or gets me angry. I shipped too many "difficult" ships and liked a lot of characters that got a lot of hate and that came from the shows fandoms of which tended to act very immature. So I'm sort of glad I wasn't into OTH when the ship wars were going on, too much for my nerves


missygurl88 hey Great to see you here. Sure you will be added soon

wistfuldreamer

Welcome to the thread missygurl88. I added you!

Ugh. I hated 509 because of that. Peyton could be snarky and defensive at times but she was never rude or petty about it. I hated the tone they set with that episode and how the show tried to make her look bad for saying something rude to Lindsey. I'm glad Peyton apologized for it, that's who she is, but I still hate how they tried to portray her character in that episode. It was just a bad follow up to 508 all around.

I'm sure the ship wars still exist with this show, I just don't read as much about the fandom as I used to. It's better for my soul that way.

mary ksand

Very true. What I loved about Peyton is that she knew how to stand on her own and how to stand up for herself, but she never crossed the line into bitchy-ness and unacceptable, emotionally abusive behaviour like Brooke did during season 2-3. And what we see in season 5 is Peyton doing exactly the same thing. Which looked completely OOC for her. But I'm glad she apologized to Lindsey later, even though it didn't make up for the OOC writing.

That is the best way Ship wars regarding OTH now are not as heated as they used to be, but still not a pleasent experience to go through.

dwoods87

That vid

wistfuldreamer

^ That's pretty. They chose some great moments!

A lot of things about s5 were OOC though. So it wasn't just how Peyton acted at times that bugged me. Luke was completely OCC too and so was Haley. How she initially reacted to LP was over the top and unlike her. I guess that's why I have s5 issues. If I had watched it before I watched s1-s4, I probably would've really loved it.

mary ksand

^ Same here. If I hadn't started the show from the beginning and watched S5 first I would have probably disliked both LP and the show as well as Haley, NH and individual characters. Nathan/Haley were not written well either, Nathan's depression was handled so badly compared to season 7 Haley's depression, Haley seemed so heartless when it came to Nathan's condition, she saw him being emotionally tired and obviously unwell yet instead of getting him help she threatened to leave him. Lucas seemed to be enjoying hurting Peyton which was not in character for him at all. Few good things about the season were Lucas and Jaime scenes and Brooke/Peyton. It felt like writers didn't manage to convincingly handle the flashforward and show those characters as "adults" in a realistic and believable manner, instead they forced some contrvied dramas on them such as LLP triangle or Nanny Carrie in order to make things more edgy. There were a lot of plot holes regarding that season and overall it should have been different for almost all couples/relationships. I couldn't recognize the characters I loved anymore.

Overall, I was never too big on flashforwards. Few shows managed to handle them well and OTH wasn't one of them. Other examples are Lost and Veronica Mars, flashforwards only made the audience confused and didn't do anything good for the story, especially when all the truth is revealed in flashbacks without much time being dedicated to WHY things happened the way they did. It is much better, no matter how hard it can be, to just follow the story, show those characters and relationships progressing and see what happens. For both writers and viewers it is a much more pleasent experience.

Gifset

wistfuldreamer

^ I'm not a fan of NH but I see why their fans hated s5 so much. They really rolled over both of the "it" couples that season. Such a shame really. I also despite BP so s5 really held no interest for me aside from a select few LP and PH scenes. The flash forward concept could have worked really well if they hadn't used the same forumal they did while the characters were in high school. A lot of their behaviors just didn't fit with the age they were supposed to be.

Anyway, what's your favorite LP scene Mary? If you need to pick one from each season, that's okay.

mary ksand

Good point about characters' behaviour not fitting their age That was exactly what I thought too. After the flashforward they were supposed to be more mature, yet they behaved like kids playing into adults and paroding soap operas. Writers tries to make the story more complecated by forcing contrived dramas on them, but it failed big time and only made all the characters unlikable. I figured that adding some OOC and unlikable features to them was apparently an attempt to show the complecations of adult life and finding yourself (especially in Peyton's case), but it only turned those characters into practically different people and made them look way more childish than they were in high school.

Well, that's really hard I think my favourite LP scene of all time is the one where in Lucas' "drean" Keith is showing him his grave and Peyton who kept coming back to it visiting it from her young years to the point where she became an old woman and she still couldn't forget him. Represented their timeless connection and reveals a true meaning of "It's always gonna be there".

Also I think I love season 1 "Your art matters. That'swhat got me here" just as much.

wistfuldreamer

^ Guh. That scene at the end of 410 is so quiet and unerstated. It spoke to my emotions a lot more than the "it's you" scene from 409 did. 410 was about the deep-seated yearning Lucas carried in his heart for so many years. That episode just proved what I always believed was right, that Lucas buried his feelings for Peyton after things went south between them in s1. The feelings were never gone, he just put them aside for the sake of Brooke and his friendship with Peyton. They were buried so far inside him that it took a simple moment for him to see what was always there. I think it was seeing that Peyton would never let him go that made him realize how much he really meant to her. I think he just buried all this stuff because he was afraid, because it hurt so much for Peyton to reject him that he thought he'd never be loved by her the way he always wanted to be.

Wow. I rambled a lot, I just have so many feelings about that episode. Hopefully it made sense outside my head.

mary ksand

^ I loved reading it And I agree with everything. I was afraid that Mark completely abandones all the issues that LP had to face during season 1 starting from the fact that they both wanted to be together, but Peyton was not ready to open up to someone and finishing with Lucas trying to move on with someone else who was her best friend. But I'm glad that eventually it was addressed because it made no sense for Luke to seem to completely forget about how much he wanted to be with Peyton and start pining for Brooke who didn't even mean that much for him during season 1. I believe he developed feelings for Brooke and even loved her (though we didn't get to actually see this development, it came completely out of a blue) but his feelings for Peyton were never gone and your heart cannot belong to more than one person at the same time. Both Lucas and Peyton knew that if they give each other a try they can be perfect for one another, but their insecurities wouldn't let them do it in the first place and then things got way too complecated with Lucas trying to move on and Peyton being with Jake. However, at some point they had to make a choice and they chose to be together no matter how complecated it might be. I know LP relationship wasn't easy but I don't like watching "easy" love stories. They are not realistic. I like seeing people struggling and battling with issues and insecurities, I like seeing their pretty and unpretty features and how they work through their problems, such couples interest me more because they are real.

wistfuldreamer

^ In my opinion, BL happened in s2 as a result of Peyton pushing Lucas away again in 210. I won't really get into that too much but we can discuss my theories about that over PM if you'd like.

LP have a very complicated love story if you really look at it. On the surface they're just like any other couple, but there are just so many layers to them. s3 was just one of those seasons that peeled back the layers that had been buried in s2. Little by little we saw that LP's feelings were still there, just redefined because of everything that had happened between them. In s2, they both hid from each other for the sake of somebody they cared about--Brooke. They couldn't really deal with each other so they stayed a safe distance from each other but the summer Brooke was away, LP were free to become close again. I say that because of that small scene between LP in 301: What are we going to tell her? What could that mean to two people who are just friends and nothing else? There were so many moments like that with them, where they left things unsaid but you could sense there was this awareness in them. It wasn't something they knew consciously, it was buried for various reasons. Peyton just didn't admit it to herself until Jake pushed the truth out of her. Usually I don't like that with ships, where somebody has to tell them how they feel, but it worked with this show because of s1. If Brooke wasn't a factor, I would view the whole thing differently but there was so much guilt and shame wrapped up in that whole situation. That's why Lucas didn't admit how he felt either. Because he cheated, he was ashamed that he could be that guy that could hurt somebody that much. He tried to make up for his mistakes but he just made more because his heart always showed the truth, that he would always love Peyton.

mary ksand

^ I completely agree with that and I would love to know your theories

Yes, I think Peyton pushing Lucas away in season 1 effected their whole story and BL happened in the first place only because of that. In season 1 Brooke was the other woman, second choice, someone Lucas liked spending time with (though for me personally it's still a mystery what exactly did he like. She forced him to have fun in a typical Brooke way aka getting drunk and getting a tatoo and Lucas seemed to be so away from all those things and I never got the impression that he was actually having fun, but whatever Mark says) but didn't love, because his heart belonged to Peyton. She was scared of giving it a go because she wasn't emotionally ready yet and when she was, Lucas and her decided that they have to be together no matter what. They saw each other behind Brooke's back, yes, but they didn't cheat on her, that only moment when they were close to that ended with them realizing that they need to think about what they are doing first and so eventually they decided that they should tell Brooke about everything. At that point for Peyton it was harder because Brooke was her best friend since childhood. While Lucas didn't even know Brooke that well. They only didn't tell her because of the accedent. And then they sort of came back to where they started. When Lucas was back to Tree Hill he decided to try and start a fresh with Brooke, another mystery of the show that I will apparently never resolve. But as much as contrived season 2 BL was, at least later we were given some deeper look into both Lucas and Peyton's hearts and it was perfectly obvious that they were not over each other, not even close. They were together even when they were not together. They needed each other in their lives like they always did. They buried their romantic feelings yet they were still there and came out through those scenes they shared, through the support they showed to one another. And like you said, it was never them being "just friends" because there was so much confusion, "it's always gonna be there" moments, the acknowledgement that they will always love each other. They both knew it, they just needed time to finally let go of everything and give it a real chance. Yes, it did hurt some people around them. But it's not like those people never hurt them as well. There are no villians and victims in such situation.

wistfuldreamer

^ Very well said, ITA. So much of LP's story is wrapped up in that moment they slipped in CCIPC. It's where all of their guilt and denial came from. For Lucas though I feel like it's Peyton's rejection paired with their scene at the end of s1 that changed things for Lucas. She expected him to be different than his brother or his father, she demanded it from him. "It's not about what you say Luke, it's about what you do." He messed up, with both girls and he was determined to make amends to them both. With Peyton, it was letting her go to be happy (with Jake). With Brooke, it was giving her what she wanted from him in s1. The way I justify s2 to myself is that he saw Felix as this horrible guy so he tried to keep Brooke away from him. In the process he developed some feelings for Brooke, they just weren't as strong as the ones he had for Peyton. s3 was proof of that. When both girls were actively in his life, he always chose Peyton regardless of who he was with. In 322 he refused to quit talking to Peyton for Brooke's sake but in s4 he offered to stay away from Brooke if that's what Peyton wanted. Those two scenarios are just small things that prove where Lucas' heart always was and always would be, imo.

mary ksand

I know what you mean Still season 2 bugs me a lot and I cannot find a logical explanation to some things, such as Lucas suddenly wanting to be with Brooke out of a blue, even though for the whole season 1 he dreamed of being with Peyton and only because she pushed him away he got together with Brooke, whom he didn't love at that point and whom he basically cheated on with Peyton, whom he was willing to leave FOR Peyton. What he had with Peyton during season 1 was not some mistake a confused boy made, he knew what he was doing, he knew what he was feeling, he knew whom he wanted to be with and it was made clear time and time again throughout season 1. And then in season 2 it sudenly turns out that Brooke is his dream girl? That BL were a supposed golden couple and that Lucas just "screwed up things" with Brooke when he was with Peyton? Lol I just couldn't take it seriously at all. For the whole S1 Peyton was THE girl for him, the one he desperatelly wanted to be with despite her insecurities and her pushing him away at first, the one he understood and saw right through, the one he told that he would of traded his father if it could bring back Peyton's mom, the one who's art "got him there". And then season 2 comes and what was that anyway? I can get that he mabe developed some feelings for Brooke (though we didn't really get to see this development), but no way on earth Brooke was ever his dream girl and Peyton no way was "the other woman" like Mark made it seem in season 2. That re-writing was the exact reason why things became so unpretty at some point, because Lucas' obvious feelings for Peyton couldn't have disappeared and they still kept coming out. It's just that BL in S2 doesn't make any sense to me at all, I can even enjoy their scenes and I admit they had chemistry, but HOW they were put together and HOW they were played out bothers me to no end.

Back to LP, I agree, he could never cut her out of his life. Either they were friends or lovers, she was always there in his heart and in his mind.

dwoods87