MistyMountainHop

Chris, this thread's new sub-subtitle and sub-sub-subtitles are:

The Jackie and Hyde Scholars' Circle: Serious Elucidation of Zen Love

slicknickshady

Love it.

blue winter roses

Of course, welcome to the thread! It's great to have you with us!

Well when she first started stalking him, she had really just declared him as her new best friend. She was grateful that Hyde taught her zen but she only read it as he was helping out a friend. Once he showed his... nobility ... in getting arrested for her, that's when she got all romantic about it because she was convinced Hyde would never do something like that for a girl he didn't love.

But that's an interesting point about her seeing Hyde as some unattainable guy because I could definitely see her being scared off once Hyde showed some interest, since she probably wouldn't expect that. But I think this would be a more unconscious feeling because she did scream it was a Veteran's Day miracle when he asked ordered her to go out on a date with him.

I wouldn't really say it's deluding myself into believing Jackie was lying. I'm just more inclined to think she wasn't ready for him yet, like with the point you made about how she might've gone after Hyde while thinking he wouldn't give into her and when he did, it caught her off guard. Even at the beginning of their S5 hookup, the both of them were still pulling the "it's meaningless but the kissing's still hot" card. I know we were supposed to see the S5 hookup as a surprise but I can kind of see JH picking up where they had left off from JBH, even though the episode wasn't actually referenced.

Yeah, you're right, that's true. I'd say he was more guarded about his own emotions, rather than outright lying about them. I still think he was an overall honest guy. That's probably a double standard but Hyde was a very complex guy. When it mattered, he'd do the right thing but he may have not necessarily wanted others to know why he was doing the right thing. That Hyde's Christmas Rager example makes me sad though just because Bud just ends up abandoning him again.

If there was one thing Hyde would make sure of, whether he was with Jackie or not, was keeping his self-respect. I'd say the last thing he wanted was for his relationship with Jackie to be like her relationship with Kelso, and that's a very good goal to have. I've said this before about JH but it still rings true, one of the things I love about them is how they were able to grow so much by being together but they didn't have to compromise who they were along the way.

fragileღheart

Hi blazing star. thanks for the welcome

blue winter roses

It's always nice to see more JH fans here. You can call me Johanna, or Jo, btw.

fragileღheart

Hi nice to meet you Jo. i'm nikki. yea i love JH a lot. so i am happy to be on here. haha

MistyMountainHop

Y'know, I never really made that distinction before. Very astute observation, Jo!

Yeah, it definitely wouldn't have been a conscious thought of Jackie's. But, as you said, she probably wasn't really over Kelso -- so if she believed she really had a chance with Hyde, that may have scared her off.

So you've done it to me, again, Jo! You've given me another point of view that I can totally see as plausible... and I've gone and made 2 post-JBH comics based on it. YOUR FAULT. She really didn't know Hyde's ins-and-outs at that point whereas with Kelso, she knew exactly what to expect. Even though she thought Hyde was the safe choice -- it was really Kelso who was the safe choice (hence, what happened in "Ice Shack"). Kelso proved he remembered all these things about her, whereas what did Hyde really know about her? What history did they have together? She knew exactly how to get Kelso to do what she wanted (except remain monogamous), how to push Kelso's buttons. She didn't know any of this about Hyde. Different can be scary -- even if it would ultimately be better -- and, I agree with you, Jackie was definitely not ready for that.

But, I wonder, what made her ready that summer before S5? Did she finally realize that despite Kelso's changes ('cause he did change thanks to Laurie's utter decimation of his spirit ), that she wasn't really in love with him? Only the idea of what she believed he *could* be? I mean, she proposed to herself on his behalf. And he ran far, far away (and took up with "beach trash" ).


It is sad that Bud abandons Hyde again. I bet you that happened because the writers decided they liked Hyde living at the Formans' better, so they abandoned the Bud-becomes-a-better-dad storyline (and, thus, Bud abandons Hyde).

Yeah, Hyde's not really "lying" about his feelings -- he just doesn't tell the truth. But his intention isn't really to lie, it's about being guarded about them. Kelso, though, HE was a liar all right. And Eric definitely was capable of lying to Donna when he was afraid of either hurting her or getting in trouble with her.

I how you put that. ^^^ is part and parcel of who he is. Which is another the reason I like him so much. Kelso didn't seem to have much self-respect at all. And Eric kept fighting to keep his vs. Red -- and, quite frankly, Donna at times. And except for her stalking phase, Jackie was all about respecting herself. That's why she dumped Kelso after the pregnancy scared and after he burned down her house and after she caught him cheating with Laurie... Yeah, she didn't do a great job holding *onto* her self-respect when she was with Kelso, but she did the best a love-sick fantasy-filled girl like her could.

I really believe Hyde's influence is what made Jackie realize that the cheerleaders weren't actually her friends in the "Christmas" ep. Since he's all about integrity, I think Jackie -- merely through his example -- was able to make the distinction between what's real and what isn't... and wanted what's real. Kelso had pretty much no integrity, so when Jackie was with him -- it made sense that she would continue to be less authentic herself.

Interesting. By choosing to be with Hyde in S5, Jackie was also choosing to be more authentic herself. That's awesome.

fragileღheart

Hi lisa!

slicknickshady

I love your recent exchanges Jo and Lisa.

blue winter roses

I'm so glad you guys enjoy reading are novels as much as I (and I hope Lisa too) enjoy writing them.

Now here's a question. Maybe part of it was just maturity. Once Kelso ran away it might've been the breaking point of all her delusions about her and Kelso's "fairytale romance". She also knew Hyde better at this point too, and they were much friendlier after JBH, so she was probably more comfortable to hook up with him. And I also think both JH went into their S5 hookup (deluding themselves into) thinking nothing serious was gonna come from it, so Jackie probably didn't have the fairytale expectations that she might've otherwise had... like in her stalking phase, I'll admit she wasn't entirely realistic about it.

Yep, basically it's that he doesn't reveal more than he absolutely has to.

That's something I think gets overlooked a lot with Jackie. A scene that I really like is in On With The Show where, despite it being angsty and sad that Hyde chickens out of trying to get her back , it was nice to see Jackie believe in herself that she really could make it on her own. I definitely think she was someone who strived for having the perfect relationship, and that was probably her top priority, but she came to develop a side of her that wanted independence. And I think Hyde was the only guy who would be able to give her that.

Aww, that's a nice way of putting it. Hyde definitely encouraged Jackie to be herself, as in the person she was on the inside, unlike Kelso who once said, "If it wasn't for the soft skin, the legs, the eyes, the long fingernails, the butts, and the boobs, I wouldn't even talk to them." If she wanted to keep Kelso around, the only thing Jackie could do was be her superficial self but if anything, Hyde only discouraged that. He wanted to see the real Jackie and IMO, that made all the difference.

slicknickshady

Yep.

I ♥ Jackie/Hyde.

That was so wonderful. Why did TPTB have to f them up.

I have been really depressed about Jackie/Hyde today for some reason. I hate how they were screwed. It makes me sick.

Zebra

Hello, I'm new. I would love to be added to the shippers list.

This has been my favorite couple for years now. I still lament everything that the show turned into (and not just for the Jackie/Hyde stuff) in season eight, and I continue to imagine different scenarios in which they would end up together

slicknickshady

I try to do the same thing. Welcome. Always love new Zennies jumping on board.

blue winter roses

Hi, welcome to the thread! I added you.

ITA, S8 was just so inconsistent with the rest of the show that I don't even bother acknowledging it.

slicknickshady

Yes. That's why you are awesome.