MistyMountainHop

Nick, like I said on the T7S board, that's cool!


Yeah, I was thinking about that the other day. Jackie really, really mellowed (for Jackie ). She became so much more adult when she was with Hyde. You can still see her early Jackie-ness with him at the beginning of S5, but as S5 progresses -- so does Jackie's maturity. I really like how her idealistic romantic delusional side transformed into a (mostly) grounded loved for Hyde.

I'm actually surprised she got over his cheating on her. She did make him suffer for it, though. She must have seen, though, how much Hyde loved her and understood that he did it for entirely different reasons than Kelso. Kelso did it 'cause he really didn't respect or want a monogamous relationship. Hyde did it because he DID want that kind of relationship with Jackie and thought he'd lost it.

That's true! Hyde was all lovey ("lovey"? ) with Jackie in public. I agree that he was probably grateful they were back together. He wasn't ever the one who didn't want to be with her -- the only exception being "Valentine's Day" when he said he was over her ("Get off my boyfriend!" etc.). But except for that, he never broke up with her. She broke up with him -- how many times? 3? and And he was always the one who tried to work things out, even if he couldn't ever quite get what Jackie was trying to communicate.

Yeah, at first, she was giving him an ultimatum -- well, actually, always -- but a different flavor of ultimatum. After the first one, when Jackie told him that she just wanted to know if they had any chance of a future -- he just couldn't hear that. But she was a fool, too, 'cause -- hello? He still wanted to be with you after all that -- so, like, d'uh!

Their mutual stubbornness and inability to communicate properly at the end -- that is why it feels so damn unresolved (S8 aside). I MUST FIX THIS.


That is one of my all-time favorite ZEN moments when he gives her that shirt. And he calls her his girl.


I love how you put this, Jo! Conditional love, for him, was a killer. "I'll only love you if you do XYZ." I'm sure his mother was this way with him. Hell, you can see it in "Career Day". She's ragging on him, and so, of course, he doesn't want to help her out that day. She was essentially telling him that he had to take her constant blaming of him for her life if he wanted to experience any bit of love from her (in the form of a beer... ) Does this mean that every time he drinks or tokes, it's his way of connecting to his parents? OY! I bet you if someone pointed that out to him, he'd lay off for, um, maybe 2 days.

Yes! Of course! D'uh! Should'a thought of that. Again, I love that Jackie was always the one to bring out this different part of Hyde's personality. It's so awesome.

His difficulty wearing a tie and working in that horrible office showed that. :shudder: I cannot watch this scene:



without feeling the same way as Hyde. That is definitely one room in my personal version of hell.

I love how you put this, too. He really did think Jackie deserved to be treated well -- and to be happy. That he tells her she can do better than Kelso (Kelso's Serenade") speaks volumes. I really wonder why she got to him so deeply (once he finally realized he and were not happening). That was a throughline for his character starting from "Prom Night" all the way through to "Jackie Bags Hyde". So why the hell did the show just drop it? I know he wasn't so annoyed by her after that, but seriously! A little consistency please.

Also, I wonder what would've happened had Eric, Donna, Fez, and Kelso known what happened on the Lincoln in JBH. What would they have thought had they known Hyde actually willingly kissed her like that?

O! And he even says to her then, "You forced me to do this." He didn't actually want to hurt her, but he felt like he had no choice -- since he'd told her assertively and point blank that she had no chance with him, and she refused to believe it. So he figured the only way to break through her delusional fantasy world was to sting her. It's like when you tell a kid not to touch a stove. Some kids just can't go by someone else's word. They have to have the experience themselves. You can say it till you're blue in the face, but until the kid gets burned -- and feels that pain -- s/he just doesn't get it.

And the fact that he uses "a highly disciplined art" to get his point across to stalker!Jackie <-- and makes up a haiku on the spot. That's hot. And another testament to Hyde's intelligence and sensitivity.

slicknickshady

That haiku still makes me

"Never have seventeen syllables hurt me so much."

I just want to give Jackie a after she say's that.

blue winter roses

I totally agree! Obviously in the moment it would've been harder for her to distinguish between Hyde's cheating and Kelso's cheating. But I kind of think that that's what her summer of "I choose me" was for, to take some time for herself and sort through this whole mess with her, Hyde and Kelso. But I think when it comes to her being more forgiving when Kelso cheated, it was because 1) she was younger then and probably afraid of being alone and 2) her and Kelso's relationship didn't go as deep as her and Hyde's so Kelso's cheating didn't hurt as bad.

Aww, that is a little sad. But the way Jackie was acting in breaking up with him, except for the nurse, was because she was just as insecure as him. It's strange but I think of it like, she broke up with him because she loved him so much and was afraid of investing so much in him, just to have it end. And of course that's why Hyde wouldn't promise her a future, he didn't want to put himself out there, just to get shot down. It's ironic that they broke up because they were both afraid of the other person leaving them.

Maybe if someone had pointed out to him that drunkenly marrying a whore he didn't love was eerily similar to Bud and Edna's relationship, it would've knocked some sense into him.

I think at that point, the show was just trying to go for irony. Jackie chases him but in the end, it's Hyde who feels something, blah blah blah. But I am glad that at the very least, JH were on friendlier terms afterwards because JBH was a shift in their relationship, even if nothing romantic came from it. But I do still see a connection between Jackie not feeling anything in JBH and JH initially claiming at the beginning of S5 that they just had a meaningless fling. It was like they were picking up where they left off but they were still in denial of what was actually between them... which, of course, soon enough they realized they couldn't fight it anymore.

I like that analogy. It's true, the haiku was a last resort kind of thing to get his point across. He didn't hate her, he wouldn't have gotten arrest for her if he did , but he probably hated how she was going about trying to get his attention. Her acting desperate, and kind of willing to cave if it meant he'd be with her, isn't really the Jackie he came to know... and love. I think his repressed feelings were for the shallow, rich, mean and bossy Jackie he knew all along.

slicknickshady

J/H Forever!

retro physical

Aw, I miss this thread and JH! I'm glad you guys are keeping it active!

And I love that Johanna and Misty write novels and Nick just writes "JH forever!".

MistyMountainHop

Chrissy, I'm glad you're likin' it!

ITA agree with that. Kelso's cheating basically burst her delusional fantasy bubble. She really did care about him, but so much of the "love" she felt there was part of the fantasy world she'd built up around that relationship. Whereas with Hyde, she was experiencing a real relationship. She had real feelings invested without the fantasy buffer. I'm just glad they were able to get back together -- though it took Kelso's doofus-yness to do it.

Hyde: Yes, Jackie, I wanna be with you.
Jackie: Because you love me...?
Hyde: Don't push it.

Seriously.

That's interesting -- and true. Also, she didn't want to "waste her time" on someone who wouldn't fully commit to her. She really didn't trust that he wanted to be there for the long haul. It would've been nice, though, if marriage was the only way to prove it.

I don't know if that was the only reason. I think, too, that he wasn't sure he even wanted that kind of life -- and by "that kind," I mean marriage the responsibility it brings. As he said (and pissed her off at 1979 Christmas #2), he just wanted to have some fun before "life goes to crap". He was really afraid of being miserable. He watched both his parents live in misery, and remember, he didn't want to celebrate his 18th birthday because he believed his (near) future was either going to be the military or jail. That makes me feel sad for him.

I wish he'd been able to articulate all that to Jackie. Jackie thought he meant that life with her would be crap, but I believe it wasn't Jackie specifically. It was wife/marriage and his idea of what being an adult means. One of his major problems is that he never really had a real passion/direction for himself. If he had something he absolutely loved doing -- like Kitty and nursing, let's say -- he wouldn't have seen adulthood as a misery but as a time to be able to do what he actually wanted to do.

Of course, his mother's passion was being one of those acrobatic-water skiers until she got preggers with him -- and his dad's was... alcohol?

and He SO would not have done that. I don't care how drunk he got. I just don't believe it. It's, like, asking me to believe he'd wanna do Fez.

Oh, yeah! D'uh! I never looked at it like that. It was supposed to be irony... BUT FOLLOW THROUGH, DAMN IT!

Well, she was kinda acting like herself. She brought Kelso $8000 worth of things -- (minus all the things he burned down at her house). She bought Hyde boots. She wasn't bossing him 'cause she couldn't, but she wasn't really caving to him either or else she would've quit the stalking thing when he told her to in "Moon Over Point Place".

Or, at least, for the confidence she had. I don't think he liked the shallow, rich, bossy part. But the part of her that could be ruthless in getting what she wanted (e.g., he admired her blackmailing of him) and the idea of her going on a game show called, "Make That Girl Cry" () -- That she was effective, I think, in achieving certain goals -- I think he liked that very much.

slicknickshady

Anyway this may be a stupid question but did your screen name used to be Chrissy but when you became a mod you changed it? I'm just curious. I'm pretty sure but still not 100% positive.

Anyway, i have written my novels in the j/h threads past. I can't do it anymore. It's too depressing when it get's to the end of S7 and S8 and i would rather not anylize deeply about J/H because when i do i get upset and feel like crying because of you know so it's easier just to say J/H Forever when it get's to late S7 and S* territory.

Anyway all of you are awesome for putting up with me.

In other news nobody has replied to my last post in the fanfiction thread at the T7S board.

I'm getting ready to start a brilliant fan fiction. A Jackie/Hyde one. Theres one catch to it though........ It's a That 70s Show/Phil of the Future crossover fan fiction.

Didnt see that one coming or maybe you did.

----------

Anyway here are a few J/H caps.







I love how tightly Hyde is holding Jackie in the last one.

retro physical

Yep. Then it was three little birds and now it's retro physical.


That's great you're going to give JH fanfiction a shot!

I'm not really into Phil of the Future, but it sounds cool. What's it going to be about exactly?

blue winter roses

Chrissy! Great to see you here again! And yeah, well...

Exactly, that's what I find to be the huge distinction between JK and JH. Whereas JK, IMO, was more of a puppy love, JH had a much deeper and more mature relationship. Like Jackie even says, "I know I love Steven because he's smart, and he's deep, and when we have conversations, he makes me think."

I honestly think she would've settled for Hyde just saying he wanted to be with her, even if that didn't necessarily mean getting married right away. She just didn't want uncertainty and Hyde's "I don't know" was essentially being that. I just think with her, she was accustomed to marriage being the way for someone to commit to a future. It seemed like a little miscommunication there that Jackie's mention of marriage was looking for a glimmer of hope that someday they'd have a future but Hyde took it as, "If you don't propose right now, we're done." Marriage did seem to be a subject Hyde was uncomfortable hearing about so he probably got extra defensive simply for it being mentioned.

Oh I'm sure that's part of it too. When JH broke up over the "I don't know" stuff, she hadn't even graduated high school. I just think he was worried about rushing into something they weren't ready for, since I think he took the whole thing as meaning she wanted marriage right now. He definitely wasn't ready to "settle down" just yet. And even if it wasn't explicitly said, I'm willing to bet ED's failed engagement might've influenced how Hyde looked at marriage too.

I think there had even been a mention, around when the Chicago storyline was introduced, that JH had agreed not to talk about the future. To me, that says that they both realized they wanted to be together (to which Jackie even admitted being wrong to push him in the first place) and that was the important thing. That's one of those scenes that I wish we could've gotten onscreen instead of, the only thing bringing them together was that it was wrong , but I can't deny that they did have a point about being hot.

And it would be like asking me if Jackie would ever want Fez... which the answer, of course, if NEVER!

Well yeah , but I just meant it in the sense that it's part of who Jackie is and he liked her just for being Jackie. Like on the surface, she wasn't who he was "supposed" to want but that didn't matter, he fell for her anyway. But yeah, obviously she drove him crazy too, I don't doubt he was serious about that.

slicknickshady

Well in phil of the future the time machine finally get's fixed in the last episode of s2 which ended up being the end of the series. anyway imo the diffys ended up staying in the 21st century instead of going back home to the 22nd century.

The thing is now that the time machine works and they have not had any problems they decide to go back to the 70's. They happen to go back to the time where Jackie and Hyde are at there happiest as a couple. In my mind that is between episode 6.3 Magic Bus and 7.10 Surprise Surprise. I may have the Diffy's time machine break down again right after 7.10. That would be sometime in '79.

Now im not going to give the whole plot away but basically in phil of the future there is a gadget called 'The Giggle".

The Giggle replaced the thing which replaced the thing which replaced the internet in pay-per-view battle royale. It Constantly updates itself, it contains the knowledge of everyone and everything up until 2121 when the Diffys traveled back in time. The most significant factor of the Giggle was demonstrated by it providing different futures for Keely Teslow, hence the future is malleable.

What that means is while stuck in '79 with the That 70s Show gang...Keely really hit's it off with Donna and Jackie. So she get's curious as to what the future holds for Eric & Donna and Jackie & Hyde. Phil gives into Keely's puppy dog pout and let's her use it. Phil and Keely witness the horror of what is to come for the gang. For example basically the end of S7 and all of S8.

So Keely and Phil try to make sure that horror doesnt come to pass. That Jackie doesnt give Hyde an ultimatum. That Jackie doesnt end up going to Chicago and being stuck in a compromising position with Kelso. That Hyde doesnt go and get wasted in Vegas and come home married to a stripper. That eric doesnt go to Africa and finds another calling instead. A way to eliminate Randy from never coming to point place. (I don't know how im going to do that though. lol. This means i have to go back and look how randy showed up in the first place but i really don't want to do that. lol.)

That is the jest of it. Basically a long story short Phil and Keely are going to try to prevent the disasters of what was to come. They are also going to be an inspiration in some ways for Jackie and Hyde.

I love Tanith's S8 Redo how she just eliminated the horribleness that happened.

Basically im going to try to do that in a different way. By the Diffys with Keely going back in time and with the giggle at there service they have the opportunity to change the future.

I hope i explained that decently. The future is malleable.

retro physical

That actually sounds really interesting, Nick.

Exactly. Commitment to Jackie was getting married. And Hyde was scared of that. But I definitely think if Hyde had told Jackie that even though he doesn't want to get married right now, but he still wants to be with her, it would have been good enough for Jackie. She just wanted to know she wasn't wasting her time. They might not get married in the next few years, but she wanted to know that Hyde wanted to be with her for the rest of their lives.

And it did get to that, where Hyde admitted that he didn't want to get married just yet...but then we all know what happened after that...

I haven't ranted about season 8 in a long time, so I'm going to right now...

The thing that pisses me off the most isn't that they screwed up Jackie and Hyde, but it's what the writers did to Jackie. Throughout the whole show she was always getting cheated on. That's bad enough. And then when she gets a tiny glimmer of hope that Hyde one day might want to marry her, she finds out that he's already married. That is such a slap in the face to her. It's the one thing that she wants, and she loses it to some skank that Hyde met and only knew for a few days. I just don't get why the writers would be that cruel to her. Like, that's not comedy. That's not funny. That's just mean and stupid. If you don't want JH to be together, fine, but don't be that cruel to a character.

slicknickshady

Thanks Chrissy.

And well said on your second point Chrissy. Well said.

Again i hate thinking about S8 and yes S8 Hyde deserved every ounce of cruelty that went his way but being married to a stripper and finding out you were never actually married to a stripper because she was married is pretty cruel as well. I think the cruelest thing to do to his character was doing that storyline. Hyde was not Kelso. They made out Hyde to be like Kelso and he was far from that. They ruined both characters in S8. Hyde would have NEVER stayed married to the stripper or stayed with the stripper cause they were never actually married. lol. I mean HYDE being so against marriage and then all of a sudden not having a problem with it is horrible.

Basically this is why i can't acknowledge S8. Hyde turned back into his early S1 self and Jackie turned back being her S1 shallow self.

Yes HYDE was way worse in S8 then S1 my point is though the characters regressed so much in S8. It's sad.

So screw all that. Forget this whole post of mine. I hate anylizing and thinking about S8 so please don't respond to my thoughts on S8 here. lol. It's too sad. lol.

So ill end with.......Chrissy's favorite line......

J/H FOREVER!

EDIT:

Back to my upcoming Jackie/Hyde That 70s Show story. I just broke ground on chapter 1. Chapter 2 will be when the That 70's Gang comes into the picture. Chapter 1 is just how the diffys come to be stuck in '79.

Anyway the brilliant CraftyNotepad sent these ideas my way. This guy just has a way of articulating things i think but can't put into words.

Seriously i had no idea how similar these shows are in some ways before i started talking with Crafty. Anyway conflict is always tough for me to do because i don't like angst. As a lot of you know here. I like things to be all happily ever after. Of course the relationships in this story will be but i need to somehow incorporate drama into the story.

Talk about an interesting dynamic. The Diffys are from the 22nd century (2121). Keely was born in the 1990's (Phil of the future begins with the diffys getting stuck in 2004) and you have the That 70s Show gang in the 70's. I mean thats just awesome. I have never been a fan of crossover fics but this idea is just pumping me up.

Phil and Keely on a date with Jackie/Hyde and Eric/Donna.

Anyway that brings me back to the show now. I always wished we saw a Jackie/Hyde and Eric/Donna double date. I mean they have had to have a few of these don't you ladies think? I mean the four were friends. I hated the Hyde/Jackie and the Kelso/Brooke double date because that was just awkward. But i have a feeling seeing a Jackie/Hyde and Eric/Donna double date would have been epic.

blue winter roses

The show really seemed to have something against Jackie, I don't think I've ever seen a character brought down like that before. Not just by other characters but the way they had her act totally regressed her too. And to me, it was even worse that the stripper turned out to not be Hyde's wife because it's basically saying her whole purpose for being on the show, and getting between JH, was for nothing. I just can't take any of it seriously, I mean if that was how the writers wanted JH to go, and then basically have them act like they were never together, there wouldn't have been a point to make them a couple in the first place. I don't think any thought was put into S8, it was completely moronic!

That is a great line to end with.

slicknickshady

haha.

Exactly. I hate anylizing S8 because there is no method to the madness. None. I don't acknowledge it but if someone told me i had to acknowledge i would just claim it to be a Nightmare Jackie had or an Alternate Universe.

I mean they made Donna out to be a horrible friend to Jackie in S8. I mean theres no way Eric would have broke up with Donna. I mean people can say we Zennies are biased and the only reason we hate S8 is for what they did to Jackie and Hyde but those people would be way off base.

Yes, The reason S8 upsets me and makes me want to cry is because of what they did to Jackie and Hyde. But i bet i could find many people who don't ship Jackie and Hyde and they would agree S8 is horrible. I mentioned the other day about talking to a guy who doesnt ship anything in any shows and he refuses to acknowledge S8.

So it's not just me an upset Zennie who thinks this. I bet you a ton of fans of that 70s show who don't ship anything think S8 is bogus as well. I truly believe that now.

Poor Jackie. Poor everybody.

How-very-girl629

I think Donna was never a great friend to Jackie. And It never bothered me that Eric broke up with her. Their relationship was just limiting eachother when they were in different places. It's not like he said he didn't love her anymore.

The entire season was complete fail though, don't get me wrong.

That fic sounds interesting, Nick.