MistyMountainHop

Chrissy, I'm glad to learn you were "Three Little Birds" 'cause I was thinking that there were, like 5 "Chrissy"s on here!

I totally agree! The new hacks writers thought they were really just showing how wrong Hyde was for Jackie -- since they believed that. That is the height of suckage. Instead of taking the characters for who they actually are, they forced their own hack-y desires onto them. That is the epitome of bad writing. Characters have lives of their own, and often they'll tell you what they wanna do. S8 insults me not only as a Zennie and T7S fan -- but also as a writer.

And this, I think, is one essential reason why J/H work so well together. Who he is affects her on a fundamental level. He doesn't have to go out of his way; he just has to be himself to foster growth and change in her. It's one of my current favorite Led Zeppelin lyrics: "You are the sunlight in my growing." <-- They really were for each other. And it's great to be able to see that. J/H's relationship raises T7S above mere entertainment and gives it depth and meaning.

That's possible. I mean, they did put the stupid helmet on Eric when he told the gang he wanted to propose. Marriage so young -- even in the '70s, pre-college, was not the best of ideas.

OY! SO why didn't the writers follow through with that? That's HUGE. Huge for Jackie to admit it. Huge growth on her part, which I think Hyde would have compeltely acknowledged and been proud of. Wow. I am quite miffed that this wasn't taken up and explored more.

I'll have to keep my ears open for that bit 'cause I don't remember it. That actually really ticks me off that the regular writers weren't consistent with it.




That's true. Like he said to Kitty: "I can't like her." The idea of having feelings for her, of all people, freaked him out. You can see that he's disappointed when Jackie tells him she felt nothing during that kiss. It's quite sad, actually. While working on the JBH comics, I studied those scenes carefully 'cause I wanted to find nuances I could play with. There are some interesting subtleties there to how Hyde reacts to Jackie throughout the ep. My bread and butter (subtext).

O! And, btw, our conversations here have had a big influence on the angle I took on the JBH!comics. I think you'll recognize how. I owe you a creative-consultant credit on some of them.

slicknickshady

Thanks Angela. I see what you are saying. I liked Eric/Donna but i mean it wasnt an OTP of mine like Jackie/Hyde.

haha. Lisa. There seemed like a ton of Chrissy's to me as well.

I can't recall what Jo is talking about but for some reason im thinking the same thing. Maybe it was in one of the episodes 7.18 - 7.22.

I can't wait for those comics lisa.

blue winter roses

Yeah, I feel the same way. It's not that I expected Donna to be perfect but I got so sick of her being treated like she was. It made ED seem unbalanced because Eric was reduced to kissing the ground she walked on. And even when they were broken up, no one even tried to see where he was coming from. He was just automatically wrong for ever letting someone as "amazing" as Donna go. Tbh, I only knew I was supposed to think she was great because of all the "telling not showing" that went on. I also still have trouble wrapping my head around how the supposed feminist could get away with backstabbing Jackie by choosing the stripper her best friend's boyfriend betrayed her for. It's not like she was much help when Kelso was cheating on Jackie either.

That's one of those things I love about JH. Even though they were stereotypically opposites, they were still able to be together without compromising who they were. And even though they were still the cheerleader and the burnout, they weren't limited to just that. They were actually able to grow emotionally, as people, just by being together. They were a case where their differences helped them more than hurt them because they could both learn from each other. Whether it was over something they already had in common (like the parents thing) or something they were always at odds with (like presents), they still helped each other see situations in new ways.

If I remember correctly, I think it was Hyde that said they agreed not to talk about the future. I'm not really willing to back and look, since I think it was in one of the Chicago episodes. But hey, we still got one of the episodes after their "I don't know" breakup where Jackie admitted (to Fez) that she wanted Hyde back and for them to just be together. And at least Fez relayed the message to Hyde in On With The Show.

Aww! I seriously can't wait to see them, your comics are all so awesome! JBH is always such an interesting episode to get into because of how it shifts from Jackie chasing Hyde to Hyde being the one that clearly felt something in the kiss. I know the show kind of dropped the JH stuff after that episode but I definitely feel like they got along much better than before and maybe Hyde was just waiting for his chance again. He certainly wasn't going to go all stalker-like, the way Jackie had done before , he'd be patient.

slicknickshady

Yeah, I'm with you, I'm not going back to look.

J/H Forever.

Hey i will crutch to that forever.

MistyMountainHop

Oh, yeah! Now, that I remember.

See, that's why Fez couldn't be deported. He had to help Jackie and Hyde get back together.

Thank you! Our conversations have helped a lot in my understanding of JH and the T7S gang, in general, so -- thank you, again! Makes illustrating their idiosyncrasies way easier.

After JBH, Hyde clearly didn't hate Jackie anymore. They were civil, if anything. But having been so steeped in JBH, and now that I'm doing the eps right after it -- it was shocking to me how Jackie was talking. For example, in "Hyde's Christmas Rager":

Jackie:JACKIE: You know Donna, this'll be the first year I celebrate Christmas without a boyfriend.... Donna, be nice to me. I'm lonely. I mean, okay, if there were mistletoe over me right now... who would kiss me? No one. That's who.... Donna, I already love myself. I just wanna French someone.

---

Um, hello? Fez would have easily made out with her. She essentially pushed Hyde away 'cause she "didn't feel anything". Kelso would've done it with her had she gone to him. And then Jackie decides to go after some dudes that were old enough to date her MOM? I have to tell you, Jo, that was painful to read. I actually really hate it. Not my favorite characterization of her.

So, like I said, I'm fixing changing/acknowledging what came before so there's, at least, some consist through line till S5.

Hyde, I expect to be all ZEN about it. Jackie said she didn't feel anything, so it's not like he's gonna push it -- especially with Jackie. I think after being majorly burned by Donna, he knew better than to try that again. I'm surprised Jackie didn't tell Donna about the kiss and that she felt nothing. It's not like her to keep things to herself.

Oh, well. At least they ended up together in S5.

slicknickshady

Yep Lisa.



J/H

blue winter roses

Ehh, Kelso did a better job when he helped JH get back together.

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with that either. It felt like another Jackie Moves On kind of episode where she was just at a low point and wanted someone to admire her, but she didn't care who. (And about Fez, honestly, it seemed like the only time she over showed interest in him was when it was a last resort) But I think it would've been a great opportunity to tie in JBH there because maybe Jackie could've been sad that things didn't turn out with Hyde the way she expected. Or even about Kelso because part of me thinks that she wasn't over him yet, even while she was stalking Hyde.

But I do think she had really wanted it to work with Hyde. I thought she seemed more resigned about it not working after Hyde said he didn't feel anything either than when she first commented on the kiss.

That's an interesting point. Maybe what happened went deeper so instead of bitching about it, she thought it would be better to push it from her mind? I could even see Jackie possibly wanting to hide that she felt something... when it comes to JBH, I think it was either Jackie was actually honest ("Yeah but here's the thing about me... I lie!" ) and didn't feel anything OR what she felt was so intense that it scared her, so she didn't want to admit to anything.

Hyde wasn't even the kind of character to admit to his feelings even when they were returned, there was no way he'd tell Jackie he felt something right after hearing her say she didn't. I feel like at times, Hyde had trouble reading between the lines because he was a very "what you see is what you get" kind of guy so regardless of what Jackie meant, he was responding to what she said. I don't think he gave up on Jackie afterward but he didn't see a point in actively pursuing her. If things were to happen with them (S5 ), he would just take it as it comes.

slicknickshady

I agree. I still think Jackie felt something in the JBH kiss. I really do.

I mean isnt thinking the kiss is hot feeling somthing?

I have never been kissed before so maybe every kiss is hot and i just don't know. But it would seem to me that if you think a kiss is hot that you felt something.

I think it's as you say. It was so intense that it scared her.

IMO thinking a kiss is hot is feeling something.

fragileღheart

Hi can i be added to the shipper list?

MistyMountainHop

Nick, Jackie (or anyone) feeling the kiss was hot -- could definitely be a purely physical response. A person can get physically but not emotionally turned on. It happens all the time. Lots of nerves in the mouth. I mean, not to be gross, but a totally straight guy with his eyes closed getting, er, special treatment from another guy -- would get off on it. Of course, once he opened his eyes, he'd be freaked out -- but it still would've have physically felt good. It's a purely physiological/biological response.

Hyde's got a rash...

ITA with everything you wrote. It was writing for the joke vs. internal consistency of character. I mean, Jackie was acting really pathetic/desperate. I totally believe that she was using Hyde to get over Kelso. She was so afraid of being alone that she instantly glommed onto someone she trusted. And she clearly trusted Hyde. Whether she was concious of the reason or not, she must have picked up on the fact that he's truly a () NOBLE () person. (I have just said that so many times -- I'm making myself sick. ) So he was safe.

And MAYBE, just maybe she chose to stalk him (at first) because she believed that he wouldn't ever really give into her. He was safe. She could distract herself with her pursuit of him without really fearing something would come of it. She was so vulnerable and, frankly, scared after she broke up with Kelso. She probably didn't really want to be in a relationship yet. Hyde provided her with a way to keep herself sane without any real threat of having to become really emotionally involved with him.

As time went on, she probably did want something to work out with Hyde. She likely hoped she would feel that same spark she felt with Kelso, but what she felt was an entirely different animal. I mean, Hyde is basically the diametric opposite of Kelso. I bet you he even kisses in the opposite direction.

Honestly, I think the writers intended that Jackie was being truthful. She didn't feel anything. Because they knew they would be putting her back with Kelso eventually. But I don't mind delusing myself believing that what she felt was so intense that it scared her. Wait 'till you see what comic!Hyde has to say about Jackie's "I didn't feel anything" comment.

ITA agree with everything you said here. That's why he couldn't lie to her when she asked him if he thought Pam was hot. ALTHOUGH -- he was a what-you-see-what-you-get kinda guy -- he still hid his true intentions or feelings from his friends. He liked everyone to believe he was a selfish ass when he was really the opposite. Here's another example of Hyde trying to, er, hide his true feelings:

"Hyde's Christmas Rager"

Eric is sitting on the couch, Hyde is pacing around.

HYDE: Now he's all strict. I gotta do my homework... [smies] and he keeps talking about nutrition.

ERIC: So, I guess what I'm hearing from all this is: Hyde loves his daddy!

HYDE: Shut up, Forman. I do not.

ERIC: Yes, you do! Yes, you do! And Daddy loves his little Hyde! And that's why he yells at him and tucks him into bed... and puts on his little footsie pajamas... and reads him bedtime stories!

They start to fight.

---

Yesh?

And Hyde would definitely not tall Jackie he felt anything and put himself in that vulnerable position -- esp. with Jackie, of all people. He knew how she used all of Kelso's vulnerabilities against him. He did not want to end up like that.

slicknickshady

Ok, Nice to know Lisa.

Not really but i sort of get the example you are going for. But i don't want to experience another guy giving me special treatment. My one cousin may like that but not me.

Now i don't think if it thought a girl wasnt attractive and for some reason we kissed i don't think it would be enjoyable. Maybe that's not the case and Betty White kissing me would feel good and be hot. idk. i don't think i ever want to find out though.

Still i sort of understand where you are getting it. I have just never really been physical with a girl. I mean i have freaked danced a couple times and have had hugs from girls i like but that's about it. So i'm really inexperienced so i do appreciate what you said it's just hard for me to wrap my mind around it.

I know "Hyde" felt something. That was blatantly obvious. Jackie is sort of ambiguous. Now im not a big subtext person. I actually most take things as they are said. But when it comes to Jackie/Hyde i believe they both felt something but im not good at subtext at all.



I'll still stick with she felt something but lied.

jackiehydelover

You guys and your novels


edit - Wow! My name, board links and avatar really blend in with this board

slicknickshady

We are trying so hard to get this to #400 but it's going so slow.

We will get there eventually. I remember when we went through 3 of these threads a day.

jackiehydelover

Well maybe if you split your posts up instead of writing War and Peace every time, you'll get there sooner

slicknickshady

I enjoy the lengthy posts.