jackiehydelover

Jeez! You guys write novels here!

slicknickshady

Yes, we do.

We are Zennies! Hear us ROAR!!!

MistyMountainHop

Chris, these discussions could totally go into a book of essays about That '70s Show.

Building a time machine was one of Kelso's "secret inventions" that Hyde revealed in the ep where Hyde falls off the water tower.

In making the Kelso/Fez fanvid, I saw a piece of S8 ::shudder:: to get that show of "Michael + Fez" on the water tower. Ugh. He and Jackie And Fez didn't even sound like Fez. Chris is right: aliens *did* take over the characters' bodies.

One of the reasons Hyde's so guarded is that he really does care about people. Kitty knows how "sensitive" he is. If he weren't, he wouldn't have anything to guard. As I'm sure you well know, there are so many people in the world who really don't give a duck about others. And they're just nasty -- whether maliciously or incidentally. Sure, early on Hyde said some nasty things to and about Jackie -- but that was when he was caught up with and the writers hadn't fleshed out his character yet.

Hyde was definitely more of a selfish character in the beginning. But soon, the writers figured out that this was more of a front to protect his true feelings. They ended up making Hyde, I think, the most complex character on the show. Some people get off on smut. I get off on good characterization.

I love how Jackie became the character who brought out other sides to Hyde. Starting in S1 "Prom Night". It makes sense because *her* character is such a challenge to him.

I wish, though, that they had given us a little more Hyde/Eric friendship. I wrote this on the T7S board somewhere today, but I wanna put it here, too. It's interesting that in "Career Day" after Edna was ragging on Hyde, Hyde went looking for Eric. That speaks volumes. I don't know whether or not Hyde would have actually *talked* about his feelings with him -- but I get the feeling he would have since he so easily told Red about it. And Hyde was thisclose to crying. I bet you he let himself be vulnerable with Eric that way -- but, of course, that kinda thing was written away (or just not written at all).

Even if Hyde wasn't gonna talk to Eric about how he felt, that Eric is the one he would normally go to when he felt like crap is so I would have liked to see something where Hyde acknowledges what Eric did for him by being his advocate where Kitty and Red are concerned. When Edna had left him, Eric kept having Hyde over for dinner. And then, of course, Hyde moves in. Hyde showed his appreciation to Red/Kitty by doing all those chores (which I would have liked to see hints of him continuing to do throughout the series just for consistencey) and getting the job at the Fotohut.

At least when Eric says he'll tell Red "he does it too," Hyde tells him there's no point in both of the getting into trouble -- and you can see Hyde's loyalty and care for Eric there.

First, I wanna say that I that you wrote the word "admittedly". These really are mini essays we're writing here! I absolutely agree with what you said. She was going by her experience with Kelso -- he's the familiar, safe road. She knew the trees she would see and the birdsong she'd hear. Hyde was a completely different path with different kinds of trees and wildlife. Scary (and I mean both my metaphor and what Jackie probably felt -- scared).

Yeah, that doesn't seem right. Maybe she liked the way he put his hands on her shoulders -- or his red socks. Or Jackie was so caught up in missing Michael that Hyde's tactless way of comforting her didn't really make a deep impresssion -- because the trauma of being without Kelso overrode it/pushed it out of her mind.

Aww, Jo! Thank you for caring about my mental health! S8 is pretty damn bad. Luckily, I read the transcripts of the shows while I'm coming up with the comics -- so that'll be a lot less painful than having to actually watch it.

slicknickshady

Eww...I feel bad that you have to read those god awful transcripts that might as well be called really bad fanfiction. Seriously i don't know how any fan fic could be worse than what we saw in that disgusting season. lol.

blue winter roses

I did read a S8 script once... well skimmed it and it made me wonder if the scripts were perhaps not even written by actual writers at all. The quality was so low and the dialogue so childish that I'm thinking the season was secretly written by the writers' kids.

Well don't worry, it wasn't in vain because your video was awesome! And really, Jackie was not a girl to settle for being #2. It was literally spelled out in the finale who Fez's #1 would always be!

Exactly! The thing about how Hyde was with Jackie, when they weren't together, is he sure put a lot of effort into trying to convince everyone he hated her. Even in S8, the character who supposedly goes through life being distant and uncaring puts a lot of care into showing how much he "hates" Jackie. To me, that sort of contradiction just says he wasn't over her, nor was the JH story itself , which shows his Zen really was just a cover.

But early on though, like when he first met Jackie, I do believe he was genuine in finding her annoying. Because until prom, he didn't have a lot of chances to get to know her that much better. Prom was like their big chance to be with each other one on one so Hyde could see Jackie for the person she was underneath the bitchy cheerleader persona. And JH really are both complex characters. Those two had so much more in common than it seems but they just handled situations in such different ways. They both gave each other a new perspective on things, which is why they grew so much when they became a couple.

I love the Eric/Hyde friendship so much! Of his friends, Eric was the only one Hyde ever seemed somewhat comfortable opening up to. Like in On With The Show, when he asks for Eric's honest opinion about himself and Jackie. It's not often that Hyde would seek out advice so it means that much more when he does. And Eric, of course, understood it better than everyone else just how much Jackie meant to Hyde. He should've been the one mediating whenever JH were about to get back together, not Kelso or Fez.

It also works the other way around too. Hyde was the one that Eric would usually go to for advice about Donna, which is especially significant since the retching H/D nightmare. It's like on some level, Donna wasn't worth the cost of their friendship. And Eric didn't seem to feel weird about talking to Hyde and I don't think Hyde felt weird to help Eric out either. The two of them really were like brothers and nothing could come between them.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's probably the latter. And when it was about prom, since JH were alone in the basement, maybe she thought Hyde would be more cooperative because no one else was around.

MistyMountainHop

The S8 jokes are so freakin' LAME! T7S, at its best, is HILARIOUS. S8 was, like, killing T7S, burying it, then letting your dog -- you get the picture.


Thanks, again, Jo! I like that Hyde left/cheated on Fez for/with Jackie in my vid.


EXACTLY. S8 put a lot of effort into his supposed indifference to Jackie. Ridiculous.

ITA. He did *not* like that girl. And he had no reason to, either. I wonder, though, why Jackie said in the first Christmas ep that the answer would "probably be no" if Hyde wanted to make out? Do you think she secretly found him attractive all along -- or she was just a little... loose? We know she didn't like his "porkchop sideburns," but she did like his face.

Writing in the T7S discussion of the week thread (topic: fave friendships), I realized that Jackie was actually quite a good friend -- to Donna, at least. Yeah, she was self-centered and had bitchy tendencies, but she'd had quite a few experiences that Donna hadn't yet. She was able to give Donna guidance in a lot of areas. And comfort. And she even comforted Eric after "The First Time" -- of course, it was to burn Kelso (), but I think it was also 'cause she cared about Eric. She was there for Donna after her breakup with Eric, too -- got her a date with Casey, did her hair and makeup for that date...

You're right. Jackie is quite a complex character. She's self-centered, has narcissistic tendencies, can be quite superficial, reveals secrets -- but she's also loyal and compassionate. And Hyde encourages her better traits. In "Cat Fight Club," he saw her potential. Otherwise, he never would put in the effort to teach her the ways of Zen. Which is why it's weird he calls her a square -- 'cause he put her through his "dojo of coolness". Hyde, make up your mind!

I agree! Eric should have been the one to help Hyde get back together with Jackie. Eric's also the one Hyde confided in about his decision to marry Jackie.

Like Jackie for Donna, Hyde was the more experienced friend who could help Eric through the trials of growing up. Hyde had been there first. Like getting to 2nd base -- 'cause who else was Eric gonna go to for that, Red? Also, the advice Kelso gives sucks.

It's interesting 'cause Hyde really puts up such a front. He told Fez that it was the right thing to do NOT to take advantage of drunk!Jackie in "Roller Disco," and yet he also told Fez to tell people that he *did* take advantage of her. Huh? Hyde basically revealed himself there. His philosophy is: be noble, but don't let people know you are. It fits! I totally want to write a true essay about this. I need to go to grad school and write a thesis...

slicknickshady

I love your posts Jo and Lisa.

blue winter roses

Glad you enjoy them Nick.

Now there's an interesting question. I think early on she was very much against what he stood for but I also feel like him being so different from her was something that got her attention. And I don't think he was someone she ever found ugly or anything, scruffy yes but definitely not ugly. So I could see her having a curiosity about him that she didn't realize it, especially given how early it still was in the show. But the other thing though is Jackie was a character that liked it when guys thought she was hot. Like in Kelso's Serenade, she was so complimented by Hyde's "If I didn't know you and I had NEVER talked to you, I'd think you were totally hot." So maybe for that, she just expected him to want to make out with her.

Jackie had a point when she said Donna was younger than her in love-years.

True but he may have been reacting to some of her more recent suggestions that they hang out by looking at the yearbook together or at roller disco lessons. How Jackie could ever think Hyde would agree to roller disco is beyond me. But Hyde's shock when Jackie went ahead and bought the weed has me thinking. Her motive was to try and impress Hyde, and maybe show that she did understand him, but it was like he didn't want her to ultimately go down the same road as him. That makes me wonder if he was trying to keep her away from him for her benefit. To me, the thought is sweet and sad at the same time.

You totally should, I completely agree with that statement! He might complain about it, he might pretend he doesn't care, but he would do anything for the people he cares about. And sometimes I think he doesn't even realize he cares, especially when it comes to Jackie. He tried so hard to convince himself he hated her but when it came down to it, he really went out of his way to protect her. There was a moment in Jackie Moves On when he was trying to convince Fez not to catch her on the rebound and Kelso was just like "Since when do you like Jackie?" And Hyde was also the one, who tried the hardest (IMO) to get Kelso caught cheating... and some of the efforts he made, I think, were beyond just trying to enjoy a good burn.

slicknickshady

Exactly, I saw the scene in Vanstock again when Hyde is talking to Donna about why they didnt tell her that Kelso was cheating on Jackie. Hyde made it clear how he was trying to set traps to get Kelso caught. But he would not rat out Kelso.

I don't think Hyde liked it at all that Kelso cheated on Jackie. But he wasnt going to rat out kelso no matter what.

MistyMountainHop

Nick, I always found that dichotomy weird -- that Hyde wants Kelso to get caught but wouldn't rat him out. I don't know whether Hyde was laying traps just to burn Kelso, or 'cause of his own moral/human sense -- did he think cheating was a bad thing? (his parents -- or at least his dad -- probably cheated on each other quite obviously) -- or both.

I think you nailed it, Jo! And that she would "probably say no" means that she didn't find him unattractive 'cause Jackie wasn't loose. And, at that point, she clearly wasn't 100% Kelso's girl in her mind or else there wouldn't have been room for a "probably".

Which is interesting. She didn't find Fez to be unattractive, either, but his "foreignness" is what canceled that out for him. Fascinating, then, that Hyde's poor, orphan, scruffiness didn't cancel him out for her, eh?

Absolutely. I still wish the writers would've given us more in the later seasons about E/D's emotional connection. Yeah, Donna said Eric "read[s] her body like braille" -- which is awesome -- but so, like, the opposite from what we hear about the J/H dynamic. O! Which brings me to...

We clearly know why Jackie was with Hyde: what she told WB about him, what she tells Kelso ("But Steven has my heart), and even though she said, "I love you" in that specific configuration only once -- she has said in a variety of ways that she loves him (e.g., "I smother the things I love," then hugs n' kisses Hyde, etc.)

What we mostly hear about Jackie from Hyde is "she's hot". We get teeny tiny glimpses verbally as when he says "I've never felt this way about a girl before" and when he tells Jackie he missed her calling him "Puddin' Pop". But, otherwise, we have to get it from either actions/gestures like 1) the beard-shaving 2) fighting Kelso for her 3) His staring at her at the hospital 4) how physically intimate he is with her -- lap-sitting, taking her hand, etc. :love 5) And even that he talks to Jackie about his feeling torn between Red and WB (that's a show of trust).

The other way we get is from outside perspectives, the first being Kitty in JBH "'Cause I kinda think you do [like Jackie]!" 2) Eric telling him that Hyde's happy when he's with Jackie 3) Kelso and Fez making fun/imitating Hyde. "Oh, baby, I love you so much." 4) Donna's teasing of Hyde in S7 -- esp. in "The Show Must Go On" and when she realizes Hyde's gonna ask Jackie to marry him.

Another thought I had when watching "The Show Must Go On"... As we discussed before, Hyde is really soft and gentle with Jackie when he was gonna tell her he wanted her back -- but decided to let her go 'cause she seemed happy without him. The other times we experience that kind of softness from Hyde is in "Magic Bus" and, also, when he tells Eric, "No, I've decided [to marry Jackie]. All this makes me think that this is an aspect of Hyde that Jackie evokes in him (d'uh, I know) AND that Hyde is like this a lot more with Jackie than was ever shown. This was probably his usual demeanor with her when they were together in private, loving and tender and without his usual defense mechanisms. No wonder she was so in love with him.

But because conflict and tension are what fuel story, we mostly get to see when Hyde and Jackie are having issues (whether small like Hyde not wanting to go to Kitty's couple's party or big like Jackie's "MARRY ME OR DIE" and Hyde's shrugs).

It would have been nice to see a little more of those private moments, some of the depth Jackie experiences from him -- and how it affected her in the moment of the conversation. Could have been some cute funny going on there.

Since I've been working on JBH comics, I watched a bit of that ep, too, to get certain things the transcript doesn't relay so well. When Hyde punched Chip, the look on his face during the punch is so awesome. He was PISSED! There was definite anger there, which quickly turned to shock at the fact that he would do that -- for JACKIE. I loved how pissed Chip's "bitch" comment made him -- but it was more than that, of course. It was that Chip didn't care about Jackie as a human being but a "thing" he could use. Kelso was definitely a user. Hyde? Not at all.

And that's why I love Hyde so much. He's compassionate, noble, and though he won't hesitate to commit misdemeanors -- he really doesn't like it when a person's humanity is ignored. <--- When you put all that in the o so hot package that he is -- with his edginess...

Yeah, Jackie never had a chance.

blue winter roses

I think it's that Hyde cares a lot about his friendship with Kelso and he doesn't want to actually rat him out. But what he went through to lay traps is something that I think goes beyond just enjoying a burn. I don't think he liked what Kelso was doing to Jackie, and he wanted her to find out about the cheating, but it wasn't his place to actually tell her. And there's also the chance, considering it was only in S2, that Jackie wouldn't have believed Hyde even if he did tell her.

Jackie was someone that liked being worshiped. Ultimately, that's really all she wanted from Fez, like she said in Jackie Moves On for him to stay single and admire her from afar. But with Hyde, I just think he intrigued her because she knew he wasn't going to cave into her demands the way Kelso or Fez would. So maybe if Hyde could end up seeing her that way on his own, it would mean even more.

I kind of like that it was that way from Hyde. It would've been too OOC for Hyde to go from being all Zen to being completely open with spilling his feelings. And given Hyde's home life, I think it makes sense that he was slower to realize what his feelings actually were, which is why other characters sometimes pointed it out. It's like what he can't say in words, he makes up for in gestures. He lets Jackie know what his feelings are without actually having to say it, of course he did tell her once... and she shot him down. I kind of wonder if that incident discouraged Hyde from actually *saying* "I love you" in the future.

I agree. I am someone that thinks conflict can lead to growth tough. Not just simply having conflict but facing it head on, which is why I think JH were the best couple on the show. Right from the start they were struggling because by society's standards, they shouldn't be together and HOW they got together that summer certainly turned a few heads. But they stayed together because it didn't matter what others thought, they wanted and loved each other enough that they would make it last. So that in itself is something that says they were different with each other in private than they were with their friends. We did get a couple moments of them alone but I wish we could've gotten more too.

I did like the one when they were in the basement, after Hyde met WB, and Jackie was like "Who needs a father anyway?" It kind of made me think she meant that all they really needed was each other.

Exactly! The first time I saw it, I was surprised by how mad he got too because early in the show, I think it's safe to say there were times Hyde also thought Jackie was a bitch... or so he wanted it to come across. But it was like he *really* did care about her as a person, even if he found her annoying at times, which was in line with all those other times in the show that Hyde did something to protect her. Even in the times that Hyde would... sort of... try to hurt her feelings, he immediately felt bad for it. Like in Kelso's Serenade with the "What are you gonna do now, cry? Oh man you're crying."

slicknickshady

So sweet. :Love: my J/H!

MistyMountainHop

O! I bet you Jackie wouldn't have believed Hyde. She might have thought Hyde was trying to break them up for 1 of 3 reasons 1) 'cause he wants to rid Kelso of his "bitchy anchor" (her) 2) He wants Jackie for himself 3) Both 1 & 2.

You know what, though? Even Hyde gave into her "demands" before S5 -- she just had to find the right way to manipulate him. And she did: tears. Yeah, she didn't say to him, "You're taking me to prom!" She asked him first, he said no. Then she cried, and he said yes. So that gave her a way in. I wonder if she cried fake tears when they were officially together to get him to do stuff? I doubt it, though, 'cause he didn't succumb to it by then.

O, I completely agree. That's a major reason I don't read much T7S fanfic. They make Hyde so un-Hyde like. And now, come to think of it, when Hyde and Jackie were at the car show -- he made it very clear that he *wanted* to spend that time with Jackie. I guess by the end of my comparison, I was less complaining about Hyde's lack of verbal demonstrativeness and more remarking about it (though I first started with a complaint... ).

After I made that comparison, and reading what you wrote in reaction, I've come to realize how much I like that about him. It makes him interesting. Hyde is basically Mr. Subtext.

That *is* interesting. It really could have. Hyde could definitely get pouty about something like that. Jackie could have been pestering him to say it out loud for that reason (e.g., Truth or Dare circle) -- but that may have been just to make him admit it to the rest of the gang.

I completely agree. Conflict can lead to change and growth. And with J/H, it definitely did. And that should have been what S8 was about. I love to watch/read that sort of dynamic when it leads to character development. I just would have liked to see one or two more peaceful moments between J/H since we did get to see a lot of tension/conflict. Since I'm intrigued by their relationship, I want to see as many aspects of it as I can. For instance, the small detail of Hyde's nickname for Jackie could tell us a lot about how Hyde expresses/filters/experiences the gushier aspects of romance -- and also a bit of how he sees Jackie.

Like, why does Jackie call Hyde her puddin' pop? 'Cause he's sweet to her? No wonder he didn't want that getting out.


Of course, giving Hyde a rich daddy changed all that, didn't it?

So true!

And, also, that she could relate since her own dad essentially betrayed her trust. She went from being the quintessential daddy's girl to, uh, Hyde's girl. Actually, he really helped her to gain autonomy from her dad. Love that.

Maybe Hyde didn't think of Jackie as a bitch but merely as "bitchy". There is a distinction. As you say, Hyde still saw Jackie as a person -- regardless of her bitchiness. But to flat-out call someone a bitch basically takes that humanity away -- and, hence, the punch. Hyde did not like the vision, I'm sure, that flashed like mercury through his mind when Chip called Jackie a bitch. If Hyde didn't like how Kelso treated Jackie -- not only where the cheating was concerned but with other things (e.g., "You could have been a man and forgiven her") -- and he knew Kelso actually cared about Jackie...

Imagine how Hyde must have felt about Chip's potential treatment of Jackie? He might have even envisioned a date rape scenario there (of course, that's probably reading a little too much into it. But Hyde did fear that Jackie could be hurt). At least Kelso appreciated Jackie as a person, even if he couldn't respect the sanctity of their relationship.

That is one of my all-time favorite scenes. I love how it's written in the screenplay. Hyde is disdainful at the potential of Jackie crying -- but when she actually does it -- he's "sympathetic" LOVE! He is who he is, no matter how he tries to deny it.

blue winter roses

Oh that's true. I think it kind of fell in line with the whole "Ask nicely" thing. Even if Hyde kind of knew she was manipulating him, like her pouting to go to the Christmas dance, I think he did want to make her happy so he would agree to things as long as he felt like she didn't force him into it. I don't think Jackie would ever completely lose that part of her that was demanding but Hyde did really help her mellow out.

I loved that! And not only that he was being sweet to her, he did all that in public. Jackie didn't push him or anything, it was like he was just grateful that they were back together and he didn't want to lose her again. Just the line of "Jackie's my chick" already shows how far he had come. He admitted that to Kitty. But when it came to calling Jackie his girlfriend, in private, he was less comfortable expressing it, not even wanting to admit he said it in the first place.

Well since the Truth or Dare thing was when they were high, I tend to take those moments less seriously. But yeah, I don't think she was trying to force him to say it there because she *really* needed to hear it, she might have just been trying to make him uncomfortable because it was Truth or Dare. It might be similar to when she decorated his room and he ended up loving it. But I guess that was more a result of him making such a big deal of how much he hated it before giving it a real chance. Hyde was just usually the most responsive to things when he didn't feel obligated, except for her birthday, which he did want her to share with him.

In their angsty times though, I think it became more of a problem. They're both really stubborn so I think when Jackie was trying to get Hyde to say if they had a future or not, she wasn't necessarily trying to be demanding but it came across that way when she was frustrated. And Hyde, growing up with the mentality that the people who are supposed to love you always leave, was probably just as frustrated because she was essentially threatening to leave him too if he didn't make himself vulnerable by admitting his feelings.

I think that he even had a nickname for her says that he was much more open and loving in private. And so does him saying that he had actually missed being called "Puddin' Pop". But I do really wish we got to learn what he called her, that's one of the biggest mysteries to me. It was obviously something that went against the Zen exterior he puts on in public., if he tried to keep it a secret so badly.

Yeah, well... when they first got together they didn't know that. And I don't think meeting WB made Hyde lose sight of all he had been through either.

Oh, definitely. Hyde was already protective of Jackie, even when she was with Kelso, and he was one to assume the worst. I think the biggest thing Hyde was concerned about was Chip doing something to take away Jackie's dignity. He may have recited a haiku to get her to leave him alone but he would NEVER do something to seriously hurt her.

But since I didn't start watching till S5, I saw a lot of the early episodes out of order. I knew JH butted heads a lot but I wasn't actually familiar with all the moments they shared from those days (including the stalking). So when I first caught JBH on a rerun, I thought "Oh, this must be how they got together" (for S5), since I had missed the episode explaining how they *actually* became a couple.

slicknickshady

Today i was in Ypsilanti for an appointment at one place i went to years ago for my ocd. I still go to the after care group at least once a month on wednesday. Anyway we were talking about something today oh yeah this kid was talking about he is into cigars now so i brought up that scene in That 70s Show after Kelso has the kid. Anyway after that i brought up how the show is fantastic until the end of s7 then i don't acknowledge it.

The other kid said "The only stuff i don't acknowledge is when the Randy kid comes in". I was like "That's S8" And he's like "Yes. Horrible" and i was like "Me Too. Season 8 was horrible. so out of character." and he's someone who did not ship anybody in the show and he even said he doesnt acknowledge it's existence. So that made me feel good that more than just Jackie & Hyde shippers don't acknowledge S8. I like to think im unbiased but sometimes i think to myself "is the only reason i don't acknowledge because Jackie and Hyde are not together at the end.". Well this is more evidence to the contrary that thats not the case. A LOT of people don't acknowledge it. Me and this kid (he's 17 so i consider him a kid) were laughing so hard.

I won't say here what we called some of the s8 events because well let's just say we were really vulgar about some of the happenings of S8. So it made me feel good that someone who is not a shipper says he doesnt acknowledge it.