FireQueen

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Barry/Joe/Iris, Cisco/Caitlin and Jesse/Wells were one subplot to me, you have characters dealing with what happened on E-2 in the case of Barry and Cisco and what leaving E-2 means in the case of Jesse.

Maybe we could have gotten more when it comes to Barry being concerned over Caitlin losing another LI (apparently the heart-to-heart was cut?) but he certainly didn't act like he didn't give a damn. They decided to have Cisco be the worried friend who freaked out over the possibility of E-1 Killer Frost.

Then you have the villain of the week connected to the crossover.

Then you have Wally being jealous. I don't think they could have waited any longer to address this issue. It's already too contrived that Wally didn't know anything about what happened with Barry's parents.

I was fine with the episode because despite the presence of Dig and Lyla I didn't feel like any character was shoved aside. It also helped that I went in with low expectations

I agree that things have been much better for her but I'm having flashbacks to last season.

S1: Barry confesses he's in love with Iris. She is sidelined and has zero PoV until it's time for her and Barry to kiss. They skipped all the build up to the kiss and we're afraid they may be making the same mistakes now that she knows about E-2.

S1: Iris starts to work at CCPN and gets a mentor. Nothing happens with that storyline. Will they do the same thing with Scott? When you start to see a pattern the fear is justified.

That's why I said that it feels unearned. It's not about not enough horrible things happening to Caitlin that could warrant a psychotic break, it's about the writers not focusing enough on her and Jay. If this is the thing that pushes her over the edge I'll feel cheated because they could have added more heartfelt moments to their relationship. But maybe it's just me being too critical of the writing while the problem is the actors' chemistry? Or I am the problem?IDK...

Wells' betrayal was more powerful to me because the writers bothered to showcase his relationship with Barry, Cisco and Caitlin.

bonnie51

Yes, that is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I see them as three separate ones because they dealt with separate things. Emotion, relationship based, yes, but I go by the topics. So thats where we disagree there.

True. but it wasn't just that. it was Wells almost "she'll be fine" dismissal. I mean I know there is only X amount of time in an episode and that but there was a time this year even when Caitlin and Wells had... bonded? moments? IDK.

Fair enough.

I didn't have high expectations with the cross over, etc... IDK. I guess its just one of those things where for some reason or another, it fell flat with me.

Very valid. Though since they had said that there was going to be more Iris in the 2nd half of the season I don't know that they will? And as we've discussed earlier I think / feel, whatever you want to say, that the tea leaves are pointing towards some kind of romantic union with Barry and Iris in one of the last episodes of the season. Whether its just a kiss or more... I have no idea.



Understood and I agree. I would feel pretty cheated although I guess at the same time I'd probably be somewhat OK since they were actually doing something with the character. So I'd have conflicting emotions on that end

FireQueen

You're right. Wells was too harsh

They say a lot of things but then don't deliver so it's not like I can take them at face value

Barry/Iris by the end of S2 is inevitable but will it feel earned as far as Iris is concerned? I want to believe that they've learnt from their mistakes but I still fear they'll make everything ambiguous until it's time for a kiss. Iris will tell Barry "Since that day you told me about E-2 I've not been able to stop thinking about you!". Evidence of it?...Footage not found! Also, they've to be careful with what they do with Scott because this could feel like an unnecessary complication. Better to be optimistic, though

That's a more positive way to look at it

scarletspuffyfan

well, we have 8 episodes left. if they start immediately in the next one showing that Iris is starting to think about/wonder about him or look at Barry differently, then i think that's probably enough time for her to realize her feelings by season's end. i do think it's going to end with something positive for them by the finale.

bonnie51

Yeah, I was just like "okay?" I mean I know he's all about Jessie and that's great but still....

This is quite true, sadly.

Agree. I think as a viewer the most frustrating thing is to be told something - OR - to have something just kind of pop up and not see the evidence of it - see Jay and Caitlin, etc.

Although in one shot of the promo it almost looks like they might be there together at the club that Trajectory targets? Maybe? It was a quick look at the out fits but it looks like they might have been there together? IDK. Pure speculation there .

True, although if it were a different character I wouldn't mind them actually giving them a real test run.

The fact that he's her boss and basically kind of set up to be a guest star and probably not be anything more? does make me agree.

Yeah. I don't WANT her to have a psychotic break, etc... but it A) might be interesting if she became Killer Frost, etc... and B) it would be something that was hers.

Yeah, she has friend ships and connections and is liked by other characters, etc.... but really, a lot of her arc was driven either by the loss of Ronnie, return of Ronnie, loss of Ronnie and then Jay. So it would be a chance for Caitlin to have something that was hers - although as mentioned it once again would kind of be based off a love interest would fit the pattern for her but at least it'd be a little different. Take what you can get I guess.

scarletspuffyfan

i gotta be honest, once this Jay/Zoom arc is over with it's going to be hard to even see what they do with Caitlin, except turn her into KF eventually.

i think she kinda has to become KF at some point, because otherwise there's really no reason for her to be on the show.

they either tie her story into a man or what, she just stands around and tries to give off that expository medical jargon (not to mention her acting, which is wanting to say the least).

i think that's all they can really do with her. i did like how they focused on her friendship with Cisco again these last couple eps- that's got some potential to it, if they can do that more and make then a familial duo of their own, it would help her feel more essential to at least one other character.

Cisco feels more essential to the show somehow than she does.

bonnie51

disagree about the acting but thats a personal thing as is seeing who has chemistry with someone, etc, so I won't get into that much.

WARNING. LOST POST ENSUING.


With that out of the way... had they continued Season Two has they had Season One, romantic or not, Caitlin and Barry and Caitlin/Barry/Cisco had a stronger IMO relationship in Season One to Season Two. They went out of the lab together sometimes, had emotional connections, etc.

Outside of the christmas episode, I can't remember the last time was that any of them went with one of the others or both for something that wasn't related to work unless you count the Kendra / LoT and that kind of sort of became somewhat work based.

but they didn't so that's neither here nor there.

outside of the last two or three episodes with Cisco not with standing ...

I could probably write down on maybe 2 pieces of paper, was going to say one , how much Caitlin had talked directly to Barry or Cisco that wasn't her in Star Labs explaining something about a meta-human's abilities. And that might be with it being double spaced and sized sixteen font.

which is a shame because that was part of what I enjoyed in Season One. but like the first subject with acting thats irrelevant somewhat because clearly, I don't make decisions on the show and they're going to do whatever they want and that's fine too.

but all that does lead to more major point and that is I completely agree. If she doesn't become KF .... then she might as well leave. If she could contractually.

Because she is irrelevant this season. Not in Season 1, I'd say, but in Season 2 and if she's around in Season 3, she will be again if she's Caitlin. Its not the first time I've said this here. Love Danielle and I love Caitlin. But its not going to get any better in Season 3 its going to get worse. Here's why:

Wally's not going anywhere, his role's going to expand next season. Could make the same case for Jessie Quick. Patty I'm sure will come back at some point. But even if she doesn't that's kind of a moot point because I'm sure Henry Allen will stop fishing, someday

Jessie can step into her role. She and Barry were shown working together on the problem in Zoom's lair to get out and bonded a little, she already was in Star Labs when they were trying to trap King Shark and is supposedly smarter than Wells so she can help with the science and had a little banter moment with Cisco. Not to mention she's a big part of Wally's story so keeping her around will keep comic purists happy. And she also is perfect fit for the show in the stand point that when Barry and are away, interacting with Wells makes perfect sense and you can have moments there. She won't need much screen time on her own for a while, won't need to interact with Barry much and her development can be slowed somewhat because she's younger obviously and more tied to Wally than to Barry. Its like a slam dunk or a home run.


Before Jay turned out to be Zoom or whatever happens with that I had stated many times I expected her to go back to Earth 2 with him and pop in from time to time. Or become Killer Frost. Because they've painted her character into a corner.

sometime during season one you could have made the case that maybe Barry and Caitlin would become a LI but nothing - outside of 2x01, maybe - has even remotely hinted at that, so thats pretty obviously not happening. The EP's swear in every interview that KF is not happening on Earth one.

honestly, as much as it pains me to say this because I hate, hate, hate, when characters keep coming back from the dead at this point I'd be happy if Ronnie came back from the dead - again- so they could go to wherever he wanted to go at the end of season one and then they could both be done with the show. Its the best exit possible at this point. Which is really, kind of sad that that might be the best direction forward but it is.


and it might sound cruel to say she's completely and utterly irrelevant this season but she is and to close, I'd offer Henry Allen as another example. When they expanded so quickly, and brought in Wally, And Jessie, and Jay and Patty and Zoom etc... someone had to go. And that person was Henry Allen. He is Barry;s father but in the context of the show that goes completely ignored. He's off fishing somewhere. Or knitting. I don't know anymore. Maybe he's like Sydney's dad from Scream and is stuffed in the back of a trunk and duck taped.

He had to go to make time. the next person up is Caitlin. Because again, in Season 3 Wally's role is going to be bigger, so will Jessie's and I expect Patty to come back. For a few episodes at least. And at some point, Henry has to reappear. Right? RIGHT?

because who else is leaving? Sure, Jay's (Teddy is contracted on the new 24) but he hasn't had that much screen time either.

Barry obviously is not. Same with Iris, Joe, Wally. Tom/Wells is going no where. Jessie was just introduced so she isn't and Cisco is the primary comedic relief so he's not going anywhere.

Which leaves Caitlin. And really, I mean, no character has been given as much reason to leave. Her dad's dead - when don't know but he's dead - her fiance and husband died - same person, I know, but whatever - then her boyfriend dies - been betrayed by someone she trusted as a mentor and has been apparently betrayed by Jay/Zoom/Zolomon / Easter Bunny - not to mention kidnappings, near deaths and near deaths of Barry and Cisco.

Not to mention, every woman who has some kind of connection with Cisco leaves. Snart, Kendra... why not Caitlin too?

I really do like Caitlin. And I love Dani. But the fact is they've turned her into a replaceable, irrelevant character this season. And if she's not Killer Frost in Season 3 - it'll be worse for the character in Season 3. At best it will be like this. I would bet almost everything on that - I'd be happy to be wrong - but I doubt I am.

but the last episode proved it to me. as has much of the season.

FireQueen

I agree They didn't have many friendship moments with them hanging out outside of STAR Labs. There were two short Jitters scenes in 2x03 and 2x05 and then nothing.

I can say the same thing for Barry and Iris, though. In S1 they were shown going to the PA event, to the Stagg event, to the movies, there was the trivia night with Felicity and Eddie, the bowling double date, all the coffee dates...it was a lot compared to the nothing we got in S2. They had the game night in 2x15 but Barry's head was somewhere else.

I think most of it is due to the darker tone of the season. Next episode will have the club scene and apparently all the younger characters (apart from Jessie?) will be there, maybe we'll get fun moments

As for Barry/Caitlin...it's true that they had more moments in S1, some of them were okay, some of them I could have done without. Apart from the fact that I personally don't want romantic SB, the actual problem here is that last season the writers could never decide if Caitlin had a crush on Barry or not. How am I supposed to view SB scenes if she has this interest that comes and goes depending on the episode? This is worse than Iris' hidden/re-emerging romantic feelings for Barry.
That being said, if you want to do SB, then start telling a story. If not, then stop baiting. What they've done last year wasn't fair to the character of Caitlin, wasn't fair to the Ronnie/Caitlin relationship and wasn't fair to the SB friendship. I wouldn't mind more SB scenes if that means that they want to showcase their platonic relationship (and there were some of those in S2, too) but the obvious baiting stuff that happened in S1 and eventually went nowhere just gets on my nerves and makes me lose interest in their friendship.

This is a valid point. I think they value Caitlin more than Jessie, though. I think if they had planned to keep Jessie around, she would have been introduced as a regular but she wasn't. If it comes to Caitlin vs Jessie I'm sure they'll choose Caitlin. I agree that she can replace Caitlin in some ways and that's what happens when every single new character you introduce has a to be a scientist I'm personally getting tired of it. Apart from Iris, Joe and Linda, does Barry know anyone else that isn't some sort of super genious? I'm getting to the point that the next science character they introduce...I'll hate him/her on purpose

They had a good moment in 2x01 but what made you view it as possibly romantic? For me the last romantic moment was the kiss in 1x19.

It's not happening for now. There's hope E-1 Killer Frost will happen in S3.

I know that these writers are not exactly very creative but nothing blocks them from giving Caitlin a storyline that doesn't have anything to do with her being Barry's gf or her becoming Killer Frost. It doesn't have to be SB, KF or...death to the character! Also, I may be against it but I still think that SB will happen some day since I'd be pleasantly surprised if the CW let Barry and Iris get together and stay together for the rest of the series.

If Henry reappears they'll have to cut down on Barry/Joe moments, right? This means Henry will NEVER come back

I know that there's talk about them bringing Patty back but for the life of me I can't see her character adding anything to the show other than cheap relationship drama. She's not a detective anymore and Barry has always been the only CSI in CC...why exactly do we need Patty? If they love Shantel Van Santen this much they can introduce an E-3 version of Patty Spivot, maybe she'll be more interesting

Caitlin can be irrelevant and replaceable for you but she's not for them. I get your frustration and at least in part I share it but the last episode wasn't worse than the premiere to me She voiced her PoV and had stuff to do, even out in the field. She wasn't just thirsting after Jay or making concerned faces while staring at the monitor. I think they're building up to something with her, the Jay is Zoom reveal affects her directly so she should be much more involved from now on.

hereforshorttime

me too, the only one I didn't like was the zoom one. just because all the gif and video and what put me in a negative place. people enjoyed the beating Barry got.

bonnie51

Maybe. Thats valid about the club thing in the next episode perhaps. And yeah, the seasons had a darker tone, decidely, so that likely has something to do with it as well.

Although one would think you would try to balance that out somewhat. Even in darker seasons have some time where things don't suck for every character or everyone isn't dealing with some kind of loss, etc.

Very true on the scientist part. It does kind of get old, I mean, even Patty went to become a forensic scientist, right? its like everyone's a scientist doctor genius, etc.

It really wasn't romantic. It was just the moment that showed that they were important to each other and that there was some kind... basis, if you will, for that possibility. Her saying that one of the reasons she didn't leave with Ronnie was because of Barry along with Dr. Wells and the work they did. It wasn't really a romantic moment but showed that connection that they showed or hinted at in season one. that's all I meant. That it was something that if they wanted to could be used to build that potential foundation for a later on romantic interest if they went that route.

True. Though they keep saying its not on the table. And it would take something pretty major for that to happen. What that exactly means ... IDK.


Very true and agreed. Its just an expanded universe of Wally and Jessie - even though the later might just guest appear and not be a full fledged regular in Season 3-

I don't know how much time they'd really invest in that. Honestly at this point the biggest thing I'd ask for the writers is to give her her own story line so the character actually develops. Frankly in Season Three - presuming she's not Killer Frost or heading down that road - I don't even want her to think - well, okay, maybe think of a LI - but not actually have one. For at least most of the season if not all of it.

Maybe its a special science project or something. IDK. But something. Something that develops her - other people too obviously because as the non-titular character its hard to have everyone have their own SL all the time, etc... but something where she's developed without being someone's LI, etc. Where we learn something or we see her do something that isn't on Barry or Ronnie or Jay/Zoom/Hunter, whomever. Maybe when Grodd comes back and they deal with that. IDK.

You could be right. And I'd be okay with that but right now I'd say there's a better chance that if Patty came back they got back together than that happening

Sadly, you are probably correct.

Although since Wally is there now... it might be possible to actually get a Henry and Barry moment?

IDK... maybe they'll turn her into Hot Pursuit



Fair enough. And I didn't see as such in Season one - so much as season 2.

And she should be.

Barry's not going to handle it very well apparently - whatever that means. Apparently he sees it as some kind of failure on his part or something. Its in the spoiler section the quote from GG


^^^

Granted, I haven't looked EVERYWHERE but I haven't seen anyone happy about the beating Barry got. Doesn't mean that some people might have been, I just have not seen it.

Summer Falls

love all this talking

i agree Wells is heartless i thought he would of cared about them by now? .. guess not


porr cailin i hope they actually fix her up storywise and make her kick ass shes been pushed to the back and its not fair .. i do agree it seems the only logical step for her right now it to turn her into KF but im not ready for that yet!

barry/henry dont get me started on that im so annoyed how they have taken their storyline this season i miss there scenes its annoying that they dont see each other much.

Barry going to be hurt again they are really trying to break down his charcter poor guy

FireQueen

That's why they introduced Patty. She was supposed to be Barry's source of light while everything else was dark and gloomy. There were multiple instances of him talking about maybe being happy with her, etc...It was telegraphed. The problem here is that even if there were forced laughs and nerdy jokes and the cutesy stuff with the date, etc. things were always bound to change because of Patty's dark past and the fact that they were lying to each other. We saw how the relationship ended but that doesn't negate the fact that B/P was supposed to be the "fun" part of the show. Viewers who liked them always talked about how much they smiled around each other and that was certainly done on purpose to highlight the sense of guilt Barry felt around characters who "knew"...

Understood

That's very true Barry will always be front and center while the others should take turns. Maybe with Cisco developing as Vibe they had to neglect Caitlin? Same with Wells and Joe...IDK. Maybe in the last part of the season/S3 they'll flip it. I can understand that not everyone can have their own storyline all the time but it's a bit insulting when guest stars get more story and PoV than the regulars. That's why I hope I can enjoy Jessie's addition to the show without feeling like she's being shoved down my throat.

What's Hot Pursuit?

Not surprised about it

hereforshorttime

the writers bug me, Barry did not want to trust Jay and then everyone is upset with him, and now he was right in the first place but because he became friends with Jay he's stupid for falling for it. I loved Patty but I never wanted them together they were fun and a lot of people hate Barry because Patty leaves and the writer have Barry loved her they are so flip flop. I am a Barry and Iris shipper but I do not hate an episode if there is no scene with them. I love the Flash in action and learning. I can wait for west-allen if it sooner that is fine too. I am not looking forward to episode 16, I don't know why I guess another Barry getting his ass kicked again.

bonnie51
Granted, I haven't looked EVERYWHERE but I haven't seen anyone happy about the beating Barry got. Doesn't mean that some people might have been, I just have not seen it. flashfan flashgifs theflashcw cwtheflash on tumblr some people on The Flash thread I even bitched somebody out. I'm over it and I block

bonnie51

True. And I guess I get that. And maybe in the beginning they were the light but then like you said, the lies and everything started coming, etc. And I don't know if it was just bringing Zoom in Episode 6, etc... was too soon or wait but the season was definetely been darker.

Although if Hunter /Jay whatever is Zoom then that might help explain why the trap didn't work if he was already there and could see that it was a trap.

Yeah, for the same reason my thing about 1x19 isn't even the kiss its the scene on the bridge where Barry stops Caitlin from going to see Wells and the convo that followed.

IF they wanted to do SB, fine... I just like the moments where you can see - not be told, but see that characters care and have real moments and real conversations about things, etc. More than anything else, with all characters, thats what I look for in a show.

I understand romance is going to happen and hopefully on a given show its done well. But even if I don't ship a couple I can appreciate them if they have those scenes and I can kind of feel the "why" even if I may not always agree with the shows choices.

It is possible that that was what happened ie CIsco/Caitlin. And in some regard I think that you will probably get your wish regarding Jessie. I just don't think they are going to push her too the forefront too soon.

You asked.



That is hot pursuit


Neither am I. What might be interesting about this would be if it had any long term impact when it came to a point of telling Wally or someone else about him being the Flash and he was adamantly against it and that caused problems?

Sure, he knows Wally and Wally's part of the family and that SHOULD help but if this does create a higher level of trust issue with Barry than anything might be possible

Heidsdk

now im curious, what does hot pursuit do? any powers?