FireQueen

The problem here is: will they follow the comics or the CW formula? My money is on the CW formula but of course I'd LOVE to be wrong.

Even if they strictly follow the comics then we have to expect for Iris to "die" and for Barry to quasi-marry someone else. I'd rather see this than break-ups for contrived reasons but I don't know how likely that is They seem to want to give Barry multiple LIs, two seasons into the show and he's already been involved with Felicity, Linda and Patty. Plus one could argue that even Caitlin was a bit interested in him. Among those girls, Patty is the only one that is a comic canon LI. Maybe they gave him all those girls to get the extraneous LIs out of the way before they seriously committed to WA (after Felicity they stopped throwing girls at Oliver) but I'm not holding my breath. I'm pessimistic so my biggest hope is that they never have them cheat (physically or emotionally) on each other.

True but for the most part Barry wasn't there. E-2 Barry doesn't count since he didn't know Caitlin at all. Also, it wasn't her connection to Cisco that got through to her, it was her love for Ronnie. The show established that Cisco knows what Caitlin needs and that is to be expected given their history on E-1. Will this mean anything for a future storyline involving E-1 Killer Frost? It's likely but I'd say E-2 Killer Frost's emotional anchor was still Ronnie. I don't think they can do the same thing with E-1 Caitlin since she seems to have moved on from Ronnie. Multiple scenarios are possible: 1) what saves Killer Frost is her deep platonic bond with Cisco, Barry, Wells, etc...2) what saves her is her romantic love for either Barry or Cisco 3) they bring Ronnie back and her love for him is reignited (not impossible but unlikely) 4) none of the above

You're giving the writers too much credit. Barry showed ZERO concern over Francine's death and WA fans also had to deal with a heart-to-heart that was cut. What happens 10 episodes later? The only thing Barry can think about is him being married to Iris I saw WA fans freak out after the premiere. They thought that the show was replacing Iris with Caitlin because Barry hugged and comforted Caitlin over Ronnie's death but didn't show Iris the same courtesy.

What I'm trying to say is that what they establish in one episode could very well mean nothing since the show is plot-driven and suffers from lazy writing. Barry/Patty was the plot in 2A so they sabotaged the WA friendship. They wanted to highlight the Caitlin/Cisco bond in 2X15 so Barry appeared less concerned but they could very well flip the script once Caitlin becomes Killer Frost. It's not like they have to do much work since Barry has already been established as Caitlin's close friend

Not that it matters to them since they tend to have the characters act OOC or rush things when it fits the plot but it wouldn't make sense RIGHT NOW. A couple seasons down the line? It could be more believable I obviously don't write the show but I can see them do something like this...They have Barry and Iris be happy together for one season tops, then the tv gods make them break up (because stable couples are BORING and we need DRAMA), in S4 they focus on the SB friendship and turn Caitlin into Killer Frost, her deep connection to Barry keeps her grounded and once she's cured they start dating, then they break up too and the writers go back to WA. While Barry and Caitlin are dating they can even keep the WA fandom interested with Bart and other stuff from the future.

Unless they have a sizeable fanbase SnowWells have 0 chance. I don't think the showrunners like the fact that he's older so that's a con but I don't see him as her boss/mentor. Eobard? Yes. This Wells? No. Considering that Barry inherited STAR Labs should we see him as Cisco's and Caitlin's boss?

Outside of Ronnie, Cisco is my favorite option. I don't think the showrunners like the idea of them that much, though. While they don't want to crash SB fans' hopes, both the producers and the actors tend to highlight KV's sibling-like relationship in interviews. They can change their tune if KV build a sizeable fanbase and they want both characters to have a stable LI.

I agree that that Patty could be the perfect alternative to Iris since I noticed that LOTS of SB supporters were okay with her but not with Iris. The problem is that Caitlin is still here, Patty is not. I know that a lot can happen in a couple years and that the producers love Patty but the actress has a lead role on another show, maybe she won't be available for more than a few episodes. Also, they have a tendency to give Caitlin Felicity-lite traits when she's crushing on someone. In the biggest SB episode (1X12) she was an awkward mess and the show was going for light, fluffy and fun. I noticed the awkwardness when she started crushing on Jay, too. If they want to do SB, nothing stops them from giving Caitlin some of Patty/Felicity's personality traits, especially if they don't turn her into Killer Frost.

bonnie51

here is my issue if they follow the comics regarding WA... it will seem to be picking and choosing what they were doing.

As a comic fan - I'm completely fine with WA ending together as its the logical conclusion and such a part of the original comics. However, my issue comes as to the why they end up together.

As previously discussed with "destiny" I will like wise have an issue if the reason is "because comics"

and the reason is... they've made a lot of changes to the comics. big and small. One of the most obvious ones is that in the original comics, Caitlin Snow never existed. She only existed in the comics where as of right now - Barry and Iris may or may not end up together. And while Killer Frost did exist... it was always as an enemy, etc.

I could go on and on and on from big to small - but to save time and space I won't. My issue would be changing many things from the comics but picking and choosing what not to change. Which is the show's right and that's fine.

but my view point as a fan is if you're going to change the characters I grew up loving - fine. I've enjoyed the changes for the most part. but then don't be a strict comic canon on other characters or SL because then I feel cheated out of what you did change. If that makes sense. I don't want the show to go both ways. Don't have free reign to change but then not change or don't change.


On the other hand if the show makes their journey compelling and meaningful and everything it should be and it makes it right / feels right in the context of the show then there's no issue... and there have been times and moments where I feel like they have done that. Not quite enough yet but maybe they'll get there.

Not totally on the WA romantic ship as you well know, but I completely agree with this. You want to reunite Patty and Barry or Iris and someone.... bring Eddie back, IDK... fine. but no cheating.


Valid points. I still think Cisco got thru to her a little bit more than just with Ronnie but I can't argue much with any of that.

[/QUOTE]
I don't think they can do the same thing with E-1 Caitlin since she seems to have moved on from Ronnie. [/QUOTE]

Which is why I half expect Ronnie to come back alive. Seriously though. Amell even talked about the idea that Ronnie could come back at some point in the future. I'd probably have a stroke or something because he's only been killed off twice on Earth One, once on Earth Two and then would be back again but that doesn't mean it won't happen.


If I were to rank them.

One is most likely.
Two I'd go Cisco.
And it wouldn't surprise me if Ronnie came back. Because while he always dies, etc... just as thus far they've had Barry and Iris together, they've had Caitlin and Ronnie.



Fair point. And that's why I mentioned maybe I was thinking too hard and thinking too logically or linearly for the writers.

And yeah, he did show nothing regarding Francine. Though not quite the same that is certainly true and the cut heart to heart.

The one difference I'd make is that while that is certainly true there have been moments - perhaps not a ton - that were shown that still to a degree, at least, be considered bread crumbs to keep the fan base going.

again, it might not be enough. it might be too few and far between. that's probably fair to some degree.

so I agree that its probably expecting too much for them to think in a linear fashion and anything might be possible - and WA certainly has had a good amount cut as well - I do think there still have been moments that are pointing towards Barry and Iris together at the end of the season as we have already said - whereas if they were at all thinking SB - outside of 2x01.... huh....

[/QUOTE]

That was a problem for me. Frankly, it surprised me. I guess you might say the show implied Barry felt more personally responsible for Ronnie's death? IDK, that was very strange. Or the fact that she had already lost Ronnie once? IDK. As I said, that was strange to me.

Honestly, if and when Ronnie returns and he inevitably dies or disappears again, Caitlin should just be like " its alright. he'll be back."


Certainly has lazy writing. And very good point on the Iris and Barry friendship when Patty was introduced, etc.

In the writers defense though - I would say that - they've kept some things connected. While there are certainly breaks and pauses and road bumps, etc...

they've kept Cisco and barry's relationship steady, kept Joe and Barry's relationship fairly steady and with interruption and pauses sometimes for a few episodes - sometimes in a row - hinted at the possibility of Barry and Iris. And of Caitlin seeing someone she cares about killed right in front of her.


So while its not great writing - there have been some themes I'm mostly willing to say that they have established

I'd agree... unless you're thinking of new viewers. And while I'm not one and I remember season one - I try to watch each episode as a new viewer. One who won't go to message boards, tumblr / you tube. And view the episodes in a vaccum and try to see what each episode tells me. And then I draw on earlier episodes and season one to try to form the story in my mind.

If I was channel surfing and found the Flash on this season and only this season - I honestly don't know what I'd call them. Friends, ok. Close friends? I don't know. Maybe if I watched 2xo1 thru 2x07 yeah... but otherwise? IDK.

Good point. Not so much this one - but he's still a quasi mentor. They always go to him for things when they don't have the answer, etc.

I would agree that I don't think its likely. And I Do think Cisco and Caitlin have something of a sibling relationship and I adore their relationship as is. Even if I do think it was a tad over the top the last episode.


^^

as far as Patty goes, good point about the show. so that does make her return or long term return a little questionable right now


^^

something else I failed to mention in why I don't think SB ever happens or any time before Season 5, is character development.

Even with Patty - her leaving to become a forensic scientist right? - kind of hinted at expanding her role in Barry's universe so to speak if she came back.

Iris we have thankfully and finally scene some of her start to become more involved in terms of investigating, etc... and becoming a little more involved. Perhaps not as much as the E-2 version of her but more than she was. Not enough IMO but it is better. Not good enough but better. Mostly.


Whereas Caitlin... sure, you can make the valid argument that she's already there at Star Labs and therefore she doesn't need to have her role expanded and to a point, I'm accepting of that..... until I remember that we still have no character development for her.

because Honestly, part of me wanted to her to stay gain for a little while at the start of the season at Mercury Labs or whatever. I feel like was a chance where you could have had small moments to develop the character and have her find herself and then re-integrate herself with the team at some point, etc. It would have been better for character development IMO than what they have chosen to do anyways IMO

FireQueen

Look, I will accept the separation if they first break up for whatever reason and then seek comfort in Eddie/Patty...But if they break up because of Eddie/Patty then the show loses me forever, even if there won't be any cheating.

Are you sure he wasn't referring to E-2 Ronnie? Seriously, I love Ronnie and Ronnie/Caitlin but RA can't have his cake and eat it, too. Either he stays, or he goes FOREVER

I had the opposite reaction. I think he felt more guilty for Eddie's death because on top of Eddie's sacrifice there were also his feelings for Iris to take into consideration. The show has never been clear about it but I think that Barry didn't know how to deal with it and what to say because there was this awkwardness of him being in love with Iris at the time of Eddie's death. Then there is another reason...the writers wanted Caitlin to move on FAST so she could start crushing on Jay in the following episode. Discussing Ronnie's death was the first step of her healing process. They approached things differently with Iris and had her mourn (off screen) for longer. Now that she is ready to date she can open up with Barry about Eddie.

bonnie51

I'd agree with that as well, by and large. I'd wait to see how it was done but most likely I'd also be done.

I can tolerate growing closer to someone and an idea in your head, etc.. but I wouldn't take them breaking up with one another and then one to two episodes later, boom, they're laying smooches on someone else.

again, I'd have to wait to see exactly how it was done to know 100%... but since it probably wouldn't be done that well, I'd most likely be done with the show at that point as well.


I think he meant on Earth One. I'll go look for the article. But when I read it I was like "wait, what, really? There's a real chance he comes back?"

See, I can totally accept your argument there. I don't know that I 100% agree but I understand the point.

I also think or wonder- though I have no idea - that the show figured people would or would understand that in the time off-screen between Eddie and Ronnie's deaths and the closing of the portal / worm hole that Barry and Iris would have had that scene or scenes...

whereas Caitlin had been the one to leave so they had not.

again, I have an issue with the show implying things rather than showing them but I think potentially that was a reason that there was no scene such as the one Barry and Caitlin had in 2x01 where he went to Mercury Labs. Was because in their minds Barry and Iris had already had those moments about Eddie. IDK. Could be completely wrong about that.


[QUOTE-
Then there is another reason...the writers wanted Caitlin to move on FAST so she could start crushing on Jay in the following episode. [/QUOTE]

Very true. It served a purpose, her getting that closure. It also served the purpose of bringing her back to Star Labs since she had been the one to leave. Multiple birds, one stone.

Is she going to? I mean, that would not be bad at all but I simply have not heard anything about her bringing up Eddie. Maybe she will after the flash back?

I know that they are getting her ready to move on and start thinking about dating and her love life, etc.... I just don't know - unless its been said somewhere and I simply haven't seen it - that she's going to open up about Eddie.




^^

Read a different interview with him - a couple days after the other one. In it he clarifies that he has not as of right now had any talks about returning but would certainly like to - even saying he'd play a tree- but that he doesn't want to be killed off anymore.

but also says that he likes not having a contract.


"I will honestly tell you I have not had any talks about coming back," Amell told Comic Book Resources when asked about the possibility of returning to the series. "It's probably not going to happen this season."

But the 27-year-old Canadian actor loves the people on the show so much that he would always be willing to come back if they ask him to return.

"I really love all those people," he said. "Greg Berlanti created this show with Andrew Kreisberg [and Geoff Johns]. I really love those guys. Greg has always been amazing to me and always taken care of me. If he asked me to come back and asked me to play a tree -- if Firestorm was turned into a tree -- I'd be willing to do it. Any time those guys want me to come back, I will. [But] I'd prefer if they didn't kill me again."

He continued, "But, it's really fun to get to go back and do scenes with Danielle [Panabaker] and Grant [Gustin]. All of that cast are really good people. A lot of the crew is from 'The Tomorrow People.' It's nice to be a small part of a great show. It's nice not to have a contract, so it feels very special when I get to go back."


'The Flash' Season 2 Spoilers: Robbie Amell On Whether Fans Will See Him Again On The CW Show : Entertainment : Design & Trend




so from this article it seems less likely that he returns although you never know.

scarletspuffyfan

i actually think fans will be very upset if Barry and Iris break up after getting together, and many will cry BS due to the fact that that never happened in the comics.

i don't know what their plan is, but i am hoping they intend to make them a permanent couple when this happens, and if they want to separate them later on, figure out how to do that by other means.

FireQueen

^ Of course fans will be upset. Every fan of a fictional couple is sad when the characters break up, especially if they have to suffer through the break-up and other LIs thrown in the middle. While I still think they won't pull a Lauriver and WA will stay the major ship of the show, I'm just not so sure they'll let them be this super solid couple for multiple seasons. Of course, I hope I'm wrong and they'll surprise me

Also, we always talk about comics purists but apart from the fact that not every single comic reader likes WA, how many comics fans were this enraged by Barry romancing Wally West's wife? I've seen hardly anyone complain about that I'm positive they can handle a temporary break up.

I really doubt they had that conversation off screen. The show established that Barry was keeping everyone away. I think in those months Barry and Iris barely talked, I'd be shocked if they had had that heart-to-heart about Eddie. Also, in the Jitters scene in the premiere Barry sorta mentions what happened six months before, then notices the look on Iris' face and stops. She wasn't ready to talk about Eddie.

Sorry, it wasn't a spoiler, just speculation I so would like for Iris to open up about Eddie, so her and Barry can be together without any baggage.

bonnie51

ok. i can't let it go again. yes, yes it did happen in the comics. twice, actually.

Flash Point - Example One

and last I checked

New 52 - Example Two



Now, prior to those two they were the golden, iconic couple of the comics but they are still part of the comic story so its not really accurate to say it never happened


^

I will have to re-watch but have no reason to not accept what you said about that scene and her face, etc.


^^

I agree. It would be better if they got it out there in the open and had that scene - especially with Barry running into Eddie in the time travel episode - it might even seem to set that up perhaps? IDK. And I'd like to see it frankly. While they barely addressed Ronnie, they did at least address it. So it needs to happen and I hope it does, though I have doubts.

scarletspuffyfan

actually no, Flash Point is an alternate universe where they're not together, but not because they've broken up.

and same with New 52- it's a world where Barry and Iris have not gotten together yet.

what i'm saying is that in the comics history, once Barry and Iris were a couple, they never broke up. not that they were never physically separated (she was transported to the future and mistakenly thought dead, but the two of them did not break up).

so, i'm saying that on the show, i would really like for them to be a longterm, permanent couple as they're supposed to be. and i know that's not the norm for a CW show, but i'm hoping the writers want to do that anyway. it would stand out as something different.

bonnie51

actually, no.

Flash Point IS PART OF THE COMICS.

1) Comic book series
2) Published and created by DC Comics
3) Contains Barry Allen and Iris West
4) Source material from New 52 primarily but some from Flash Point used in the show

Check, check, check, check.

And really, it was not an alternate universe. What it was was an alternate time line because Barry saved his mother and thus was the cause of the time rip. It wasn't an alternate universe as say, Earth Two, is. Its Earth. Its simply like in Season 1 - Barry's the only one aware of the changes because he's the one who went back in time.

So, yes, it is was and is part of the comics. It might not be part of the "classic" comics, no. absolutely correct. but that does not mean it is not part of the comic story.

as for New 52 - they may well get together - or they may not. If I had to bet, I imagine they would. But that does not change the fact that right now, they are not.

because if - according to you - New 52 and Flash Point weren't comic canon - then this show has a lot of problems regarding the comics. But clearly, they are using Flash Point and some of new 52.Which would imply that the show and DCU views those as indeed, part of the comic canon of the Flash's story.

Since really Flash point, as narrated by Eobard, only happens because Barry choose his mother over everyone and everything else.

"Do you remember? You found me. And in that instant, you pulled the entire Speed Force into you to stop me. To stop me from killing your mother. You were like a bullet through a windshield. You shattered history. The lives of the people closest to you were put on a broken path. You changed time like an amateur! This is your fault, Barry. This hell is your creation. You traded the life of your mother for the rest of the world!"
--Eobard Thawne


now clearly, since Barry did not save the life of his mother, they are not going full on Flash point with the show. Which I applaud. Clearly they have chosen instead to mix and match from the entirety of the comic canon - which IMO is likely for the best. But the idea that FlashPoint and New 52 - created by the same company, using the same characters, and used as source material - are not considered part of the same comics that came before them is not something I'll ever agree with. I loved the original comics, loved Flash point and while I have not read all of New 52, if I were younger and still an avid comic reader, I feel like I'd love New 52. For me, they are all the comics and as such as they are clearly not for you - then its something we are never going to agree on so this I plan on being the last time addressing it and we can move on so everyone else doesn't have to bogged down by the endless debate and fight about what is and is not part of the comics to different people since we are all entitled to our own opinions and should be respected.

FireQueen

Okay, I'm getting lost Who implied that Flashpoint or the New 52 aren't part of the comics?

Not that it matters since the show will do its own thing but do Barry and Iris ever BREAK UP in the comics? I'm not asking about them being separated by death, time travel and other shenanigans...

scarletspuffyfan

i never said they weren't part of the comics.

what i said was that Barry and Iris have never BROKEN UP in any of the comics. they're not together in Flash Point or New 52 (yet) but they have not BROKEN UP after being together either.

that's what i'm saying here. the two of them have never broken up once they are a couple. that's a fact. in those other versions, it's a different timeline where they haven't gotten together yet for the first time.

am i stating it clear enough what i mean?

bonnie51

yes. that is my fault for not understanding what you meant. I thought you were implying that Flash Point and New 52 didn't count as part of the comic story.

That is 100% my fault. Apologies


^^^

no. closest I can think of is maybe "One year later" series.

And that was not a true break up though the relationship was different. could you call it a break up.... From their wiki page

Still overjoyed by the return of Barry, she does not get much time to spend with him, as Barry is still mentally scarred from his deathly ordeal and staunchly refuses to stop and enjoy even a moment of "normal" life.



and that is the closest it ever happened to my memory..... and even that was scared by death, etc. so I would say no? its never happened in print comics, as previously stated. happened once on the failed tv series with JWS.

Heidsdk

im totally confused hahahahahaha!

Wingster

the One Year Later that followed Infinite Crisis?
Wasn't that Wally?

bonnie51

pretty sure it was Barry. Since it was Barry that broke her out of the Anti-Life Equation thing. And Barry had been dead before returning there.

I don't remember Wally being in one year later? I know its where Bart dies.


Barry doesn't return until Final Crises to break her out and then dealing with the effects of dying, etc.