Heidsdk

i can totally see wha you mean, and you are right we really dont know anything about caitlin other than the thing with ronnie.
hmm but yes it could be possible she will get more screen time then, now that KF is being shown aswell, maybe seeing KF's childhood aswell maybe see what go wrong since she's become KF? could be interesting to see

i totally agree with this, i mean we've already seen cisco be out with wells and that was kind of awesome, where was Jay there, so yes i dont think they need another scientist, there are enough of them, thats for sure
and yes they still have the metabadhuman off the day aswell, so its just too many characters so little screen time, and we have heard Jays story already so yeah i dont know, i just dont think he will get much more screen time

FireQueen

I doubt Jay will be as fleshed out as the regular characters. He won't have as much screen time either and that should be expected but seriously, he can't leave as soon as 2x11 like Patty. We don't know anything about Jay apart from the fact that he's the E2!Flash, that he and Harry are at odds and that he sorta likes Caitlin. Compared to what we know and what we've seen of Patty is literally NOTHING. Patty was introduced in 2x02 and hasn't missed a single episode since then. She's been fleshed out as both Joe's partner and Barry's LI. She had a PoV and a was goal-driven. If I didn't know better I'd think Patty was the female lead of the show.
If they their idea was to use Jay to do exposition and flirt with Caitlin why is he here? He's completely pointless and Harry could have easily replaced him. And it's not like Caitlin needed a LI this soon. But they have him on the show therefore I expect his story won't be wrapped up around 2x11 like Patty's.

I'm thinking about the new characters for this season...

Patty replaced Eddie. Wally will replace Patty.
Francine will probably die and Iris's boss will be introduced. I doubt this guy will get much screen time. He'll probably be another Mason Bridge. Things could change if he's a long-term LI, which I think and hope he's not.

Jay and Jesse will be more fleshed out but LoT is out of the way. It's likely they'll keep following the same formula with the villain of the week but during 2a the LoT guest stars had multi-episodes arcs.
2X03 was an episode with the entire Snart family.
Martin Stein was in 2x01/2x02/2x03/2x04.
2X04 had the villain of the week plus Firestorm.
2x09 had two villains of the week plus Captain Cold.
Both Linda and Kendra were in multiple episodes.

Even without Jay leaving I don't think the back half of the season will have more guest stars sucking up screen time than 2a.

Maybe there are too many characters compared to last season...maybe...but I think their biggest problem is that at times they're unable to balance things.

bonnie51

And I think that is telling itself to some degree. There is no role for Jay to play really. He's not the scientist, he's not the hero of the story really, he's... a temporary love interest that really has gone no where. Basically at this point the love interest between Jay and Caitlin IMO is one of lazy writing. I can't even call it a rebound from Ronnie for her.

Its like they said in the writing room "well, we aren't doing much with Caitlin, and don't know what to do with Jay so lets have them like each other even though we won't give them really moments to establish a basis other than the fact that both are fairly attractive, smart and good looking" high fives all round writing team, our creativity is so good

Agree on Patty. I didn't mind her at first, I still don't dislike her really but I've seen too much of her and not enough of others.

But yes, she's basically kind of taken of the show in some ways.


If they their idea was to use Jay to do exposition and flirt with Caitlin why is he here? He's completely pointless and Harry could have easily replaced him. And it's not like Caitlin needed a LI this soon. But they have him on the show therefore I expect his story won't be wrapped up around 2x11 like Patty's. [/QUOTE]

You could be right. But here's where I don't see the point of Jay:

1) They've got science covered on the show / team
2) They've got the hero with super speed covered on the team
3) Wells already said Barry should teach Jay stuff, not the other way around
4) Jay doesn't know who Zoom is, or if he does, has kept it to himself for some reason

He's kind of a waste of space in some ways, IMO. I don't mind the actor and I guess I could like the character but he doesn't advance the story at all.

1) Wells also knows Zoom and as the creator of metahumans on Earth 2, has a connection to Zoom's story

2) Since Zoom kidnapped Jessie, he is further tied to Zoom's story
3) IS now working with Zoom, again, strong connection to Zoom

so if he didn't have a connection to Zoom or know the Earth 2 metahumans, etc.. than I could see where Jay has a point other than half-hearted attempt at a love interest and filling out a sweater but since he does its kind of a moot point.

Could be right but I think we'll see more of him than what you think

Well, we know Geomancer is in 2x13 and 2x14.

Stein had to be around a lot, 1st to bring Ronnie back and then of course to have Firestorm established on LoT. So that one was kind of out of need to some degree.

Is Ronnie coming back? Its been rumored and etc...

Not to mention Earth Two is in a way its own guest star. We know have E2 Barry and E2 Killer Frost. Who and what else do we see from E2? And for how long?

But thats presuming we don't see Captain Cold or Grodd or E2 again or often. Not to mention I do think Zoom will make more appearances as we come closer to learning his identity and then ultimately do learn his identity.

And we'll probably meet E2 Iris, Joe and Cisco at some point. So while not true guest stars... they technically are if we still see "regular" Iris, Cisco and Joe at the same time in the same episode. If we don't and just have a fluffy E2 episode, then I guess its a wash but until that is revealed as to how that is going to happen... it could take up more time.

I would agree that they don't balance the greatest... and that is a problem of iMO having too many people around.


Just speaking personally, my own personal viewing pleasure I can get to about 6-7 people I actually care about on a show and that's it.

Considering there's Barry, Joe, Iris, Caitlin, Cisco, Wells. Patty's a nice person but I don't care. Jay.. is just there to me. Wally might be the 7th depending on how they write him. So just myself, I'm already kind of maxed out on caring

FireQueen

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you on Jay and the romance with Caitlin. Horrible writing.
But my point is they should improve the writing for Jay instead of getting rid of him this soon. Since right now he's a waste of space and time, they better give me a reason why time and space are being wasted on him. If he doesn't advance the plot and his presence has no meaningful impact why is he here? In a show with many characters and little time every minute has to be treasured. If Jay disappeared today I'd be disappointed not because I'd miss him, but because they could have given his screen time to other characters and developed other relationships. They could have shown more of Harry and Caitlin working together, they could have established a friendship between Caitlin and Iris, they could have shown Barry figure things out on his own instead of being taught how to throw lightnings. But they didn't do anything like that therefore they better justify Jay's presence on the show.
I hope I made myself clear, I'm horrible at explaining myself...

Patty's storyline was more linear but apart from the fact that her personality grates and every time she's on screen I want to claw my eyes out (sorry but I gotta be honest) everything concerning her character was basically filler. Her backstory had no ties to the main plot, the metahuman task force was a joke and I really hope Barry will learn something from this relationship but I'm not holding my breath.

True but he's the villain of the week while Kendra, Linda and Martin weren't.

I hope so. I'd love to get my Fire and Ice on E2. He could be filming for LoT though, it's not clear...

I see E2 as a part of the main plot but I sorta agree with you. Seeing everyone's E2 counterpart could be fun but it could also take time from the regulars without advancing the plot. We'll see...

I thought Barry was going to E2 in 2x13/2x14 but Geomancer's presence is giving me pause...

I'm against adding regulars when you already have enough people in the main cast but you need recurring characters to advance the plot otherwise the show becomes a procedural with the villain of the week and nothing else.

Said recurring characters have to be well used though. Patty doesn't advance the plot (for now) and Jay is misused. That's the problem for me.

bonnie51

No, i got you and I also feel like I'm always so bad at explaining what I mean. I get wanting something to come out of Jay... I find myself not caring so much at this point I'd just rather he was gone.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breathe on Barry learning anything either. At first I didn't mind her. I knew it was filler, but I was ok, that's kind of sweet or cute, etc. But ever since the episode where Barry had to pretend to be sick ... I haven't really cared all that much. She can go be happy off screen, lol. I don't want her dead or anything, but I don't want to see her much anymore either.

Fair point.

Yeah... the one thing about Ronnie is I have I hate when people keep coming back from the dead. He was dead, he's back, he's dead / MIA, now he's back? It cheapens the death too much. I know that happens on shows like this...

I always say I want fewer deaths... but actually have them be "deaths". Where that person is gone. Unless its a memory, flash back, etc.

The other thing is... can Ronnie survive really on his own that well without Dr. Stein?

Yeah, and Barry going to E2 would make sense with Zoom taking Patty. But if he's not? Then IDK.

Until we know more I'm not quite as excited for the E2 stuff as I once was. Still pretty excited, but not quite as much.


Oh, I agree with that. You do have to balance it out. That's where my 6th or 7th person generally comes in, lol. Or if the actors performance / character is so good that I'll care. Like right now, I'm super curious about Zoom.

Hunter? Is it MT? Is it Earth 2 Henry? I don't think it can be Eddie (Earth One) Eddie because Zoom was about to kill Jay when the singularity opened which only occurred after Eddie had already died. So I suppose that it could be Earth Two Eddie Thawne (if we see him) and that might explain the line of "hero's die" with Eddie dying something of a hero's death (seriously dude, just go get fixed and the problem is probably solved too, although I guess there is always that ever slight chance of the miracle baby)

and I love Zoom's voice. I know its supposed to be terrifying and scary, etc.. but I just love Zoom's voice. I think it suits the character.

FireQueen

I think and hope E1!Ronnie is gone for good. I didn't want him to die but the actor was never gonna be available for a regular role sooo...Ronnie, stay dead!

E2!Ronnie is a different story. It would be fan service but they can explore the Fire and Ice dynamic they were forced to drop with E1!SnowStorm. That's assuming Ronnie is Firestorm on E2. Also, they'll need Stein or another character for Firestorm's other half. Having Robbie guest star for a couple episodes would a nice treat to the SnowStorm fandom but my guess is Robbie was back on set to film LoT.

I don't think Patty will have anything to do with the E2 plot. Unless I misunderstood the interview with Grant a trip to E2 should be expected. He assumed Barry was gonna go but didn't say anything more. Maybe it will happen after 2x13/2x14 and will have something to do with trying to free Jesse? IDK, that's me speculating...

I agree about Zoom I love his voice, he's menacing and the special effects are awesome.

Heidsdk

yes zoom is very intruiging thats for sure im very eager to find out who he is, which probably will first happen in thhe last episode of the season

I believe Ronnie is dead for good, even though i dont like it, cause we saw the new firestorm in the LoT premiere, so if they need firestorm it will probably be him on E2 and not ronnie?

Summer Falls

zooms a great character his forcing barry to be better and thats good in a way

see i almost think maybe ronnie might be back i pretty sure i saw twitter pics of robbie on set or with the firestorm key thingy

Heidsdk

you did where? you think you can find it and get a link
would like to see that

bonnie51

didn't see it about I heard about it regarding Ronnie... and if he stayed on E2 than that is fine because then you have Fire / Ice there but not E1 Ronnie. I don't need him coming back.... again.

Heidsdk

i get what you mean, i also believe it will be on E2 if he comes back

im pretty sure E1 Ronnie is pretty much dead and not coming back
not that its funny, but i diubt they will bring him back to live a third time

bonnie51

yeah, honestly if they did that... I'd be about as disappointed as if they did anything else on the show.

I get liking a character as a show, etc... but sometimes, people need to stay dead / gone. Its the one way a show has to make that loss seem tragic and meaningful, etc... to the viewers and connect with the character on the feeling of loss that most viewers know and understand. continuing to bring people back from the dead or those who are presumed dead...just doesn't work for me.




I was rewatching something... and I'm kind of giving Jay the side eye now because... how did Zoom figure out Barry was the flash in the first place? He had to know who the Flash was because of where he took him (Newspaper, Police Station and Star Labs, etc)

and Jay was taking pictures of Barry early on this season

now, you could say well, he wanted proof Barry was who he thought he was or wanted to do research on who this person was before showing up at Star Labs, and both of those might be valid.

But on the darker side... what if they were to show Zoom who the Flash was? I mean, he's powerless, and on Earth one. Perhaps Zoom and Jay made some kind of deal? That Jay finds out who the Flash is and tells Zoom? And perhaps Zoom lets him stay on earth one as the new flash or just lets him live? Because early on this year it seemed Zoom knew there was a Flash on Earth One but not who it was. All the metahuman's encountered where when Barry was the Flash. Even King Shark. But then he sends Dr. Light - for the stated reason of knowing Barry's connection to her - and then parades a beaten Barry around to the news and the police station and then Star Labs? Seemingly knowing who he cared for and what places where pivotal to him?

And yes, you could make the case that Zoom simply had gone to Earth One himself and stalked the Flash / Barry and found out that information that way. That is certainly possible. But then again... he didn't seem to know that Wells had gone to Earth One until AFTER Wells and Jay had met on Earth One and then he zoomed in to tell Jessie that. And after Barry had sided with Wells and Jay had walked away. So I don't know. The timing of it as I really look back on it kind of makes me wonder... what is Jay really up to?

We already know that Jay is terrified of Zoom. And for good reason, really, but still...

I mean, sure, he tried to warn Barry about luring Zoom to Earth One but at the same time... the one person who might know Zoom as well or better than Wells just... leaves? every time that Zoom shows up? And he was the one who initially gave the warning about Zoom. So... IDK. But we've seen Zoom make deals with Wells, etc... in order to get what he wants. I don't know that its out of the realm of possibility that Jay would be working with Zoom potentially. Especially if it was a deal that was made early on, before he got to know Barry, Caitlin, Cisco, etc...


because I can't really understand why Zoom is ignoring the fact that Jay Garrick is on Earth One and has done nothing about it... sure, he has no speed force and is no threat to him, really. But he does know Zoom somewhat, has faced Zoom, and in theory, if his speed came back, could team up with Barry and that might be something hard to deal with - even for Zoom. Plus, he was perfectly willing to kidnap Jessie (who as we know it has no powers) and to kill Linda ( who has no powers) to prove a point to everyone. So its not like he wouldn't be above the idea of killing Jay on principle of removing a potential obstacle to total and utter domination.

Summer Falls

he tweeted this a few weeks or day ago

https://www.instagram.com/p/-__VVTnsh3/

Heidsdk

OMG !!!!

scclarke

MATT LETSCHER SET TO RETURN TO "THE FLASH" AS REVERSE-FLASH

"His impossible return to Central City puts a member of the S.T.A.R. Labs team in unexpected danger, forcing Barry to make a life-changing decision," explained executive producer Todd Helbing, who penned Thawne's return with Aaron Helbing.

Letscher will appear in the sophomore season's 11th episode, which is appropriately titled "The Reverse-Flash Returns."