Fangirl49

Nsuzd I do the same with a red so I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Miranda

I have to say that now that I saw her in the promo I am pretty excited for her to be back although I still hate her for what she did.

Lauren Helen Graham

I get where you are coming from, nsuzd, but I really believe with all my heart that Mr. Kaplan is the bad guy here. She is the only one who would make sense at this point.

And for me, it was a betrayal, one of the worst ever... And nothing will change that for me, sadly. That's where we all are different. Some see it as a betrayal, some don't. If I was Red I would have done the exact same thing, kill her (which didn't succeed, yes). With how the character of Red was written, it was clear that he would do that. There was never another choice.

Still it annoys me so much that it had to be her I really loved her so much. I swear, up until then she was my favorite female character on the show. It's been a joy to watch her, to see the Red/Kaplan relationship. They seemed to understand each other so well always. Why ruin it?

Fangirl49

I think that's why a lot of fans want her to save the day because they love her so. They want her to "redeem" (not sure if that's the right word) herself. But that won't work for me because then it will seem Red was wrong and I won't like that.

Either way they go back n this situation they will have a set of fans not satisfied. That's why I wish they had not done this plot.

Lauren Helen Graham

I get that, really But it's somehow over for me. What she did she can't be redeemed of, for me at least It must be something really good to convince me here.

That's true... There'll always be fans not satisfied because I have never experienced them all being in unison.

Miranda

I don't think she can be redeemed for me either. What she did was way over the line. I hate that the writers chose her to do this. I loved her sooo much. I was so intrigued by her and her relationship with Red and the writers destroyed all of that. It does give us an amazing storyline but why did it have to be her?

Fangirl49

That's how I see it too as a betrayal. I can't go back either to how they were before. Even if they show her saving the day and Red admits he said as wrong I will still be angry with her. They messed that whole relationship up for me.

girl under the floor

You know, I'm with nsuzd for the most part. I know, y'all are surprised

See, to me the show is ultimately about Liz & Red.
Not necessarily together, but about the two of them.

And I see lots of people saying Kate betrayed Red by helping Liz to fake her death. Which is true, obviously.
But what about Liz? What I really love about what Kate did and the why she did it, is that she was helping Liz.
Like nsuzd said, without Kate, Kirk would've found and gotten Liz way earlier. Or do we believe that Red would've kept that from happening? He didn't. It happened.

So as much as I'm acknowledging that Kate betrayed Red, I'm also loving that in doing so, she helped Liz.
And whilst I like Red better than I do Liz, in this case I'm on Liz's side cause I can relate to the mother wanting to protect her child

Fangirl49

I can relate to protecting her child. I just think that was the wrong way to do it. I was never clear that was her reason to be honest. For me the show didn't do a good job of defining a reason for this.

Lauren Helen Graham

My problem lies more in what Kaplan di or didn't afterwards. Yes, it was a betrayal obviously. But when she realized that Liz and Agnes are in even more danger afterwards, I would have wanted her to acknowledge it towards Red. There was nothing. She believed herself to still be right, never an "I'm sorry" and that's where this all ended for me for good! No regret, nothing from her side.

And about Liz, I don't want to get into it again, but if she was so "desperate" to protect her child then, she should have continued afterwards so it's a consitent and believable storyline. Instead she put the life of Kirk before her child's... Thank you but thank you for nothing I can only say about that.

girl under the floor

To me it really doesn't matter what happened afterwards, nor for Kate or for Liz
They made a choice that in that moment seemed like the right thing to do.

And later other choices were made cause they came to be in another situation.
But then again, I don't analyze the episodes, so I've surely missed stuff

I thought Kate did apologize to Red?
But she didn't say she was wrong?
Why should she? She made a decision that in that moment was not wrong. (Depending on who's POV you're following).

Lauren Helen Graham

See, to me it matters what happens afterwards... I can't handle storylines or people shifting priorities like changing their clothes or there not being any consitency. The show is just so messed up now, it's disappointing.

No, Mr. Kaplan didn't aplogize. She apologized to Tom, but NEVER to Red.

girl under the floor

Why'd she apologize to Tom? Tom was in on it?

Oh gosh, I can be so clueless sometimes, I can totally understand it would be frustrating to talk to me about it
Hence why I barely get into real discussion, a rewatch can make me change my mind in a minute

Fangirl49

I think she apologized to Tom because Kirk found Liz.

Miranda

Yes Kaplan apologized to Tom when they were on the plane to Cuba. I think she apologized to him for not keeping Liz safe? Because Red found out?

I understand that Kaplan wanted to keep Liz safe but was there really no other option than faking her death? This is beyond what I imagined to could have happened. It's just too much for me.