heart devoured

Yes, that's my name. I think I personally am wary of adressing anyone by their name from their sig because people have all sorts of stuff in their sigs. And it would look funny to call someone X and then find out that X is actually their favourite character from show Y and not their name. Or something like that.

Never be afraid of posting pretty stuff in (shipper) threads even if there is in-depth discussion going on. Should be room for everything

DiamondDreaming

Yes everytime I reply to someone with what I think is their name I'm just waiting for them to be like "???"

Well exactly, & there are so many pretty art and gifs around for these two

bijou156

I agree with you Scarlet it bothers me also that BIB. The way I look at it is that unlike her sisters, Sybil is outspoken, direct and determined to get what she wants*1; she also is to say that Sybil has strong convictions that often clash with Robert’s*2. Though I say these things about Sybil, Mary can be outspoken (to sometimes borderline rudeness like in s1) and Edith can be determined too. However, the big difference between the sisters is that when Robert tells Mary or Edith ‘no’ they just ‘obey’ or maybe find a way to get him to agree somehow. Eg.1 Mary was rebellious in the sense that she never married any of the men (except Matthew) that were pushed in her direction she covertly pushed them away somehow. Say if Sybil had being in Mary’s shoes she would have probably most likely gently reject them these potential suitors as soon as their true intentions became clear and tell her parents that she was not interested in getting married any time soon.
*1, Sybil is a woman of action and like a good saying says “if there is a will, there is a way”. Sybil likes to plan and has methodical approach on how she goes on to achieve her objectives, for example, she wanted to go to a nursing school she asked Mrs. Padmore to teach her some basics, then when she started to seriously consider Tom’s proposal she weighed the cons and pros hence that conversation in s2 ep. 4 or 5? Where she asked him about whether if “his (Tom’s) people would like her?” . While I think that Mary and Edith are also ‘women of action’ and determined, they would never defy their family, especially Robert, that is even if they know that they love x person they would probably not act to change their way. That’s what happened to Sybil, after time of thought and consideration she allowed her heart to have a say (like JBF said in the Radio Times’ article) and knew that what her heart wanted.
*2Robert sees himself as this ‘benign ruler’ of sort and likes to think he is modern and progressive but he is a hard-core conservative due to his strong belief in the social hierarchy and dislike of change. On the other hand, Sybil is quite modern and is tired of the ‘old’ world. If she was in Robert’s shoes he would probably embrace change and try to adapt to it rather than rumble and being ‘lost’ like Robert in s2-this Robert would be a real man of action.
RE: Drawing Room Scene I actually loved that Tom defended Sybil there and he kept quite calm and collected. When he said that “you should give more credit to your daughter for knowing her own mind” after he accuses Tom of “seducing his daughter behind his back” . This reminded me a lot about when Robert whined with Cora before dinner about the ‘mad clothes, nursing etc’ and Cora asked him whether if they “have overlooked who Sybil really is?”.
RE: Robert shouting only at Sybil When Robert screams he reminds me of a spoilt child that throws a tantrum whenever he doesn’t get his way. Children like this sometimes take those frustrations and anger on the person they think is stopping them from getting things their way.
I hope all this makes sense its 12:44 am in the UK

HarshBench

Don't get me started on the double standard with Mary and Sybil. Robert cushions Mary's fall from Grace but automatically leaps to the conclusion that Sybil has been seduced.

Pretty pictures are always welcome.

Is it just me or is it hilariously symbolic that in the hotel scene there is a big BED between them.....like Chekhov's Bed.

phillips32

Thanks for the good discussion.

Re Sybil/Mary confrontation over Branson: I totally agree that Sybil was trying to convince herself in this scene and that’s why I say at this point, halfway through series two, she had definitely not made up her mind if she loved him enough to marry him.

It was clear she had rejected the aristocratic lifestyle and was eventually going out on her own, with or without him. Fortunately for her and us, she eventually came to the wise conclusion that rebellion is so much nicer with an interesting, passionate hunk who’s adored you for years.

I disagree that Sybil was desperately trying to keep Mary from ratting her out in that scene though. Sybil volunteered to Mary that Branson had said he loved her and wanted her to run away with him. If she thought Mary would tell, she might well have left out that part when Mary asked her what he had said. We are talking about Sybil the note-leaver though who is not exactly Downton's craftiest plotter.

But bottom line, Mary didn’t tell, either in this case or when she busted the elopement. Maybe Sybil knew she wouldn't.

The Robert /Sybil yelling scenes are actually among my favorites in the show. and IMO are some of JBF’s best work.

I think they happen because Robert has by far the most affectionate and emotional relationship with his youngest daughter. With Mary he's just weary and over it and with Edith he's just disinterested. But Sybil is clearly his baby and can talk him into anything. I loved the scenes in S1 where she’d go up to him, hands behind her back, plead her case quietly and walk away with whatever she was after.

So when things go wrong between them, they get intense It’s the loudest and most aggressive we ever see Sybil and the fact she holds her own so well makes the scenes enjoyable and not overbearing for me.

One of my favorite Sybil scenes of all times is the confrontation with Robert (and Granny) in her room over Tom. The way JBF delivers, “Well, bully for that!” at the end is priceless.

I also enjoyed the Lordship/Tom confrontation scenes and think they are some of Branson's best.

In the Grantham Arms scene His Lordship is lucky Tom did not rearrange a few of his teeth when he tried to buy him off. Branson was the picture of mannerly restraint and could afford to be since he was so confident she was now committed to him. I see nothing wrong with Tom pointing that fact out to His LS. I think that was when Robert realized he was fighting a losing battle and even saw a bit that Branson was a stand-up guy who really did love his little girl.

Ditto for Branson in the drawing room during the reveal to the parents. He was calm and reasonable, which is especially impressive since he got off to such a rocky start when Sybil suggests they bail on the idea after he’s already made himself known to the family!

Patano

I said that she was trying to test the water with the person she considered the safest option and who had already seen them. One of the S/T topics in 2x04 is Sybil's worrying about her family's reaction to her and Tom's relationship, so she wanted to see what Mary's reaction would be like.

Definitely not yet. Just look at her and Tom's discussion in the garage where she's afraid of "giving up her whole world". Just see her looking at Downton with Tom's voice in her head, clearly torn. Remember Tom's line about "hard sacrifices". Similarly, read JBF's comments. She stresses everywhere that Sybil's obstacle to her relationship with Tom is her fear of "giving up her whole world".

phillips32

Matter of opinion of course, but to me, by that point I was pretty sure "not going back to useless" was going to win out over "giving up her whole world." From S1 I never thought Sybil would be the daughter to stay at Downton and live like they expected her to.

Also, just living independently and working and crazy stuff like having weekends wouldn't necessarily mean "giving up her whole world". Papa wouldn't like it but eventually he'd deal to some degree. It's only when marrying a servant is thrown in the mix that worlds start being given up. at least the parts of the world she even cares about anyway. I don't doubt for a minute that's her biggest impedement to a relationship with Tom, but not to living her own rebellious life.

That's why I say the part of her Rubicon where she would eventually reject the aristrocratic life and go out on her own was already crossed IMO. The remaining question was only whether she loved Tom enough to cross the ultimate Rubicon and take her leave with the chauffeur. Because that probably would be world sacrificing, at least temporarily Actually, LOL, I think we are agreeing on this.

If Sybil hadn't left with Branson would she have stayed at Downton, preserved her world and eventually married Sir Richard Carlyle's richer younger brother?

Patano

Yes, I suppose that she would live more independently than her family on any account. However, she would still not have a true taste of such a "common life". It's why her nursing proved to be so important - she needed more contact with dirty, unpleasant things, with the real world, with being really, really tired. Even being more independent and less aristocratic than her family, but still living at DA, or being married to a liberally minded man would not mean a true contact with the different life. Sybil needed time to know that she could totally embrace a different lifestyle. Sybil's a sensible girl - she was aware that having different opinions and not being too fond of aristocratic lifestyle did not automatically mean that she would adapt succesfully to new conditions. After all, she lived for years in this "gilded cage" and did not know what a life different to the aristocratic one looked like. It was the only life she used to know even if she did not consider it to be perfect. This progressively thinking Sybil even at the beginning of s2 did not know how to make a bed or a tea. She needed time to prepare for a different lifestyle. One thing is not being fond of the aristocratic rules and the other living in a totally different conditions (not e.g. as a wife of a liberal nouveau riche).

L i N d $ @ y

Love this scene. And how thoughtful Sybil was during dinner prior to this scene.

phillips32

I agree completely and that's why I've always said Sybil's adjustment to the non-posh life, with or without being married to the chauffeur. could be one of JF's best stories if only he'd tell it. Throw in the complications of getting pregnant and living in a war zone and things really get challenging.

It's also why I've said I would be disappointed if she's all blissfully happy and content at the beginning of S3. Even if she's madly in love and keen to be a Mom, there has to have been a difficult adjustment if there's to be any semblance of realism.

HarshBench

When Sybil tells Mary "he loves me and wants me to run away with him" I get the sense she is observing Mary's reaction, like she really wants to assess how her family would react.

I have to say that Tom's entrance into the drawing room makes me laugh. He's a polite, personable guy, but he has no "breeding". Instead of saying "good evening, sorry to interrupt" he's all "I'M HERE!". And LOL at Sybil's reaction. She looks at him like (a) he's her favorite ice cream and (b) he's about to shake things up and she can't wait.

phillips32

She's also taking a major chance on getting them blown right out of the water unless she's fairly certain Mary won't tell.

LOL on "I'M HERE!" I loved that His LS thought Tom was addressing him and said "Yes, we can see that."

ScarletCourt

Just came by for a quick drive by to say that I just posted the next chapter of my fic:

The Journey to Happiness (Chapter 21) - http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7666512/22/

The name I ended up choosing for Tom's father was Declan. Thanks to all those who made suggestions. While I may not have picked the name you offered, it still helped me narrow things down to the one that felt right for Tom's father. Thank you so much!

While I would love to join this lovely discussion, brain is fried from my busy day and evening. I will read it all and make my comments after a good night's sleep tomorrow.

DiamondDreaming

This!

When Robert replied with the "Yes, we can see that"... I was mortified at the whole situation. So awkward! I love that whole scene.

Patano

Do you know what I loved in the Mary/Sybil scene? The way she said that “they haven’t kissed”. Been thinking about it, haven’t you Sybil? Honestly, taking into account also her behaviour in 2x05 and her leaning into the kiss first, I seriously wonder how many times they kissed in her dreams or daydreams .

As for the drawing room confrontation, I also love this art . They finally lock eyes before a big audience, not in an empty garage . And Carson's expression throughout this whole scene is truly unforgettable.

There are so many small things in S/T scenes that give so much joy .