confessor_meggy

I too think that S/T weren't showed that much beacuse Fellowes wanted to develope other character, hopefully, with Allen becoming a series regular they'll be shown more in s3...

btw, I was kind of relieved their first kiss wasn't in 2x05 for the same reason as Patano (Even though I literally screamed at the tv when she walked away)
I only wish we had some sort of different scene between 2x05 and 2x07(before the first kiss). I liked them all but I missed them being in the car or passionally discussing things other than their relationship...that's why I literally LOVED the scene in 2x03 when he got angry at her about Ireland(Besides the fact that angry Branson is so cute!)

xiaoyue

This, to me, was really the first pitfall of the entire Sybil/Branson narrative. If you didn't ship them in S1, then it would be very difficult to find their relationship convincing in S2. Branson was barely there in S1, and it would be very easy for casual viewers to forget he even existed, much less recall the few scenes he had with Sybil that indicated they were heading in a romantic direction. Add to that the fact that JF did not establish a baseline for what Sybil and Branson's relationship was like at the beginning of S2 *before* Branson proposed and we have a whole audience going "who is this chauffeur guy and why is he proposing to Sybil?!"

At the end of the day both Sybil and Branson as characters and as a couple were C-listed on the plot by JF. I think he doesn't really care about them that much and just wanted them to be a kind of representations for the "change" that this particular era was beginning to undergo.

OH and I must give credit where credit is due: Anna has said "I love you" to Mr. Bates.

*OldHollywoodStarlet*

A bit late, but welcome!


Yep that's what I did too. Marathoned the show right around when season (series) two came out. They're my OTP for the show too.


Agree about the opening post!

DiamondDreaming

Thanks for the welcome!

Branson didn't join the cast until halfway through season 1 so he only had 3 (?) episodes of screentime, plus he's only been a reccuring character until now (he's only been promoted to main cast for S3, I think?) So with such a large cast it stands to reason that he didn't get a lot of screentime in S1, but IMO the scenes he and Sybil had in S1 set them up quite well for S2. . I guess casual viewers may have forgotten him, but I can't comment on that because I'm totally invested in DA & not a casual viewer at all .

Regarding the proposal in 201 probably seeming a bit random, I agree to an extent. It's hard when shows do big timejumps without much emphasis on doing so to remember that so much will have happened offscreen in the meantime. I'd have liked it (& it certainly would have helped a viewer who'd not shipped them before) if there had been another scene of them talking and looking all comfortable together and maybe a few of their signature looks at each other () before the proposal - maybe after the kitchen scene.

confessor_meggy

so, out of the discussion we're having, I made a DA video(but since I'm that invested in S/T I can't make a "fair" DA video) so it has a lot about S/T, hope you enjoy it

Downton Abbey - Every teardrop is a waterfall - YouTube

DiamondDreaming

It says the video is blocked in my country . I've just watched your S/T video to Hundred by The Fray though & it's lovely

confessor_meggy

thanks it is strange btw,youtube usually doesn't block foreign countires

DiamondDreaming

I'm in the UK and it says EMI have blocked it for copyright reasons, I think it's probably the song you used thats blocked it. Stupid youtube

HarshBench

Okay, I guess I still don't get why Sybil would have held back from kissing him all those years. Even if she thought they could never actually marry, was kissing so off limits? Mary and Matthew kissed before getting engaged. Was it because she was afraid that one thing might lead to another? Did she think she could keep a lid on things by remaining platonic? Did she not want to lead him on?

In 2.01 I always assumed that after reading about her friends' death she went to visit Tom. That's why we see her walking back up to the house. Funny to think that other viewers who just aren't tuned into them wouldn't see this.

Also, I think it would be odd if the marked contrast between Sybil's self-restraint and Mary's, um, lack of it didn't come not into play somehow. I mean, she waited YEARS just to kiss him!

Oh, and LOL at the Inn scene and how Mary (a) was really afraid things were getting naughty but (b) barged in anyway! What if they'd been like naked or something?!

I came to a self-realization about why I want a boy for them. I just think it would really chap Robert's aristocratic behind that he could never produce a boy but this inferior-blooded Irishman manages it straight out of the gate. LOL.

I regret nothing.

phillips32

To be fair, b.s. is my phrase, not Lady Sybil’s. And in mid series one, it was more that she lived a rejection of the aristocracy, not that she verbalized it. But as soon as she set out on her crusade to help Gwen, she was rejecting the basic tenants of aristocracy. She never seemed to believe that by accident of her birth she was entitled to a better life than everyone else. She never believed that one was born into a certain station in life and that should be accepted and never changed. Instead Sybil believed strongly in upward mobility, which as JF has pointed out is the early 20th century notion most dangerous to the aristocratic status quo.

Sybil also always rejected and ignored the strict boundaries between classes that the aristocracy thrived on. Gwen was in many ways her friend, so she could ask how her day was, could throw an arm around her, sit next to her on the bed and chat. She also expressed the desire to go to “real school”. All that was just a warm up for when Branson came into the picture.

Late in series 1 with Branson around and Sybil becoming politicized, her rejection of aristocracy took a more active tone. Early in S1 Ep 6 Branson says his main political target is the gap between the aristocracy and the poor and that her father is a representative of an oppressive class. Sybil doesn’t disagree or seek to defend at all because she knows he’s right. Instead they share a laugh over Tom’s political skill at quickly adding that His Lordship is personally an alright chap. By the end of the episode Sybil has declared herself a Liberal and to Granny’s astonishment, is ready to canvas. By definition being a political Liberal is a rejection of aristocracy.

In S2, once the war is on, Sybil is more verbal in her discontent. She uses the word “useless” a lot to describe life at Downton. She says outright that she cannot, will not, continue to hand out programs at concerts, pour tea, and “stand behind the guns” (whatever that means.) Once she’s become a nurse, she says several times that she’s learned the value of an actual day’s work and will never go back.

In ep 4, when Sybil and Mary are arguing after Sybil thinks Mary gave her away to Granny, Mary says “Branson? The chauffeur?” Sybil answers, “You know I don’t care anything about all that.” There’s also the conversation where Sybil says Branson is a person who can talk and Mary snaps back, “but not to you.” Sybil clearly does not believe in this strict class divide so necessary for aristocracy to perpetuate itself.

So to me, when Sybil rejects the aristocratic life as “nonsense” its not a surprise, but rather the logical result of everything we’ve come to know about her. I’m sure there are many young aristocrats, then and now, who know its all unfair b.s., but most are like Mary, too intoxicated by the privilege to do anything about it.

phillips32

Here's Lord Fellows' exact verbage on the DVD regarding Sybil's feelings for Tom:
“I think Sybil is essentially a rebel and I think one of the ways of expressing her rebellion is Branson. I think it isn’t only that she finds him attractive or is in love with him. It suits her to have a statement of rebellion in her lifechoice.”

That can be interpreted in different ways of course. I just took it that Tom being a way out was part of the package, in addition to his being hot.

I took Sybil at her word in ep4 S2 when she told Mary she was unsure how she felt about him and was not even sure she liked him at all, much less in "that way.". Sadly, the audience wasn't so sure they liked him at that point either since JF had indeed begun to make Branson frightfully full of himself.

Fellows was pretty frightfully full of it too if he thought he was making Sybil's love "obvious for the viewers" in S2. Or maybe I'm just slow. But I badly needed some scenes like those wonderful scenes in the car in S1 where they were relaxed, talking, laughing, actually getting to know other.

Instead the S2 scenes were an endless loop of Branson pushing, Sybil demurring, and audience groaning. I totally think JF lost interest in favor of M/M and St. Joan of Bates.

BTW, did we ever discuss the fact that Sybil got cold feet when Branson first came into the drawing room and suggested they might put it off for a while? I get that she was nervous, and rightfully so. But I just got throughout that Sybil was not quite sure of her feelings and that Tom as a ticket out was definitely part of the mix for her.

That said, by the last scene at Lavina's funeral, JF had once again pivoted and Sybil seemed very happy and content with her decision, and pretty totally in love.

Would it have killed him to write this story with a tad of consistency?

ScarletCourt

I personally think JF was rushed since he was working on having Titanic filmed at the same time that Downton S2 last few eps were written. Too many things on his plate could mean inconsistent storylines and inconsistent characterization. (For example, how Robert was in 2x08 vs C/S toward S/T.) I won't even bother going into his inconsistent timeline for 2x08.

Thanks for your thorough analysis of how Sybil didn't think much of classes from Mid S1 onward.

As for Sybil being nervous. Wouldn't you be if you're about to tell the family in the peerage that you're going to marry the chauffeur?

HarshBench

In both of those scenes Sybil seemed to veer wildly. In the scene with Mary I too believed her when she said she wasn't sure she liked him in that way. Bu then when Mary asked her to promise not to do anything stupid she hesitated and seemed to be crossing her fingers behind her back. If she didn't like him why not just promise right away? Then in the drawing room, when he walked in she looked at him like she was madly in love with him, then tried to put off the announcement, then was totally fierce in standing by her decision. It was just.....weird.

Tom looked really terrified in that scene. I wanted to hug him.

Then again I suppose she just wanted to avoid upsetting Ganny, so maybe she wanted to wait until they could tell her parents in private.

ScarletCourt

You have a point that Tom looked terrified in the Drawing Room confrontation, but wouldn't you be if you had to go in there to tell your fiancee's parents who wouldn't normally think twice about you that you're going to marry their daughter?

xiaoyue

I felt like Sybil was full of herself during that scene. Don't tell your sister you're not encouraging him and then pay him a late night visit right afterwards. It's called mixed messages, Sybil, and guess what, you're sending them. But I'll cut her some slack since she's somewhat of a confused little butterfly

Perfect wording is perfect.

An excellent question. I live in hope and fear of S3.