Thou Swell

For a moment there, I thought that this episode was going to be another funny one, which I don't think we really need any more of, to be honest. But it took a turn for the better, and it turned out to be a pretty good episode.

Also, lol. "Kissing vampire movies".

Sin*

I think it's obvious that Cas knew what would happen if he let Sam out. That was the entire reason he let Sam out. He let Sam out because he knew Sam would go to Ruby and end up killing Lilith which would have destroyed the final seal and start the Apocolypse. He made his choice and sided with the angels, remember when he originally went to Dean and said he needed to tell him something and then decided not to? He said his allegience was to heaven or what ever. Castiel is apart of this as well, I wouldn't have a problem with this if Castiel wouldn't have said what he did. He makes it sound like Sam chose the wrong side. He didn't. Sam was always out to STOP the apocolypse. Which is something that can't be said about Cas. Castiel flipped sides mid-game and now all the sudden he has the right to ride the white horse? No. It doesn't work like that.

He knew the consequences of what would happen if Sam got out and he didn't care. He is accountable for HIS actions and when he let Sam free and CHOSE not to stop him from killing Lilith or not telling him about the final seal that made him responsible for the situation everyone is in right now. Cas isn't innocent in this. He along with all the other Angels are accountable for bringing the Apocolypse early.

No one is saying differently but it seems that Cas is escaping his own personal responsiblity for the things he has done last season and everyone gives him a free pass for it.

Well none of what Castiel said was true. Sam never chose the "dark side" so his words were pointless. So him saying "you didn't chose the right side" makes absolutely zero sense because Sam was always on the good side. His methods was the only thing that was questionable about him. But it seems this show is dead set on making Sam wrong with little to no care about continuity or shades of gray. The theme of this seasons seems to be that "Sam was bad and needs to pay".

Not really. Cas had information that neither Dean or Sam had. I doubt that Sam would have killed Lilith if he knew it was the final seal keeping Lucifer trapped underground. That little nugget of information Cas was sitting on was VERY important that he didn't share with Dean until it was too little and too late. Cas wasn't mainpulated. He made a choice and sided with the angels until Dean made him see what he was doing to the people on earth as a result of his apathy.

Veiled Vesta

Well, what started as something lighthearted and stand alone-ish turned out to be part of the overall mytharc and semi-depressing. Who knew? (Except, uh, people who read spoilers. And TV summaries. And know who Castiel is. He's important to the overall plot, I gather? )

Of course I really enjoyed the funny stuff with the buzzer-cooked ham and the burly toothfairy and the hairy palms. Innuendo is fun! So is almost killing your brother with a buzzer! (Maybe he's venting for the angst between them the last few episodes.) The second part with this Castiel guy, the demon possessed momma, and the little half demon/half human antichrist was intriguing and even exciting but it sucks the writers didn't go the whole "brothers adopting their own half demon to use in a fight against good and evil." They would've made the most adorable, broody/angsty family ever!

BTW: Kudos to Tall Guy Sam for telling the truth to the kid while also explaining the overall story so the newbies tuning in. Angels vs. Demons with a troubled hero or two? It's so simple a caveman can do it (or understand it)!

JR29

Sam chose to boink a demon, drink demon blood and kill an innocent woman possessed by a demon (well, two if you count the one in "The Rapture"--and probably more that I can't remember right now) so he could drink her blood too. That's pretty much the definition of dark side. And Sam knew it was the dark side because everyone he knew--like Dean, Bobby, Pam, Uriel, Castiel, etc.--told him so. He just chose to ignore it because he liked it--no, he loved it. It made him feel all strong when in fact he was just really weak and easily manipulated. He knew it was wrong, all right. He told Chuck "I wish to God I could stop."

As for the reason Cas let Sam out, it was obvious--if he didn't do it another angel would have done it and Cas would have been killed by Zach, and therefore unable to help Dean. Basically, Castiel had no choice if he wanted to help Dean.

Sin*

I'm not going to talk about Ruby as she isn't really important and I don't really want to get into her. But on the front of the dark side I was talking about I have to say thing. Sam didn't want Lucifer freed. That's my point, regardless of his methods Sam did what he did to stop Lucifer from being released, not to help him be released. Sam was still on the good side, even though his methods weren't "right". He never chose to go on the side of evil, he always was on the side of good. So Castiel's comment about choosing good vs. evil and Sam not choosing good is incorrect, because Sam was never evil in the first place and never chose to be evil or went on the side of evil. That's why his comment is dripping with inaccuracy.

As to him killing innocent people who were possessed both Dean and Sam have been doing that since way back in the pilot, so I don't understand why that's being put in here. Dean even said in "Good God, Yall!" that it's what they have to do and that they shouldn't feel guilty about it. Sam originally wanted to use his demon powers so that he could save the hosts after the exorcisms used to remove the demons.

Bobby actually didn't know if what they were doing was the right thing, he even told Dean that he wasn't sure what they were doing was right, so it wasn't that black and white. Considering Bobby had doubts when they locked Sam up.

I don't know who Pam is.

As to Uriel and Castiel they were both shady and shifty as well so who can trust their judgment?

The angels have all made horrible choices that have also lead everyone down the road of the Apocolypse so I don't know why they are being used as a reference for what is right and wrong. They are extremely loss in terms of morality and righteousness. The show wants to portray Sam as the devil which is fine they've been doing it since season four and Sam has been the writers own personal whipping boy for a while. He is blamed for pretty much everything. But I will say that his intentions aren't wrong and even some of his methods make sense. I don't think it was so much the addiction that made Sam want to keep his powers, I think he understood that going up against a demon that was infinitely more powerful then him was dumb and he finally got tired of being disadvantaged. He realized that his abilities could level the playing field and he used that as an advantage to fight for good. That plus the fact that he was able to actually save people with his powers was a great asset to him.

I don't think so. I think Cas opened the door because he agreed with what the angels told him when they hauled him up to heaven after they found out he was going to tell Dean what they planned. Castiel made his choice to side with the angels and it wasn't until Dean finally got threw to him that Castiel made an effort to stop what he put in motion by freeing Sam. At that point though it was too little and too late.

beatlette

I'm sorry...all I saw in this episode is summed up in two words/one event: WHOOPIE CUSHION.

DEAN ILY for planting that there! And the way Cas said in his monotone way: "That wasn't me." AHAHAHAHAHA. I expect lots of bloopers from this scene alone.

Anyway, I just finished this episode and man, it is depressing at the end! And I thought it would be a goofy, crack episode. I really liked the speech Sam gave to Jesse at the end and that it was delivered by Sam and not Dean. As Sam was speaking, I thought that those two would be able to relate more than if Dean said it.

I really love the child actor who played Jesse. He was fantastic. The show can cast children actors SO well!!!

P.S. I laughed really hard at the "vampire kissy movie" quote [it was something along those lines]. Just a random aside.

Hmm...lots of discussion to catch up on!

*sigh* I do agree with you there...I was actually talking about this to my friends last week. I'll always be the eternal optimist about Sam this season. I will always believe that Sam is trying to make up for last season. Sam knows that what he did last season was beyond wrong in every way possible and there's no quick fix for him to redeem himself but he is trying. I could repeat all my arguments last week, but that'd be redundant So basically: I still support Sam

I just want to say, that as a Dean/Cas friendship fan, I really wouldn't mind seeing Cas telling Dean about letting Sam out -- whether it would play out "drama" or even get a simple "okay" from Dean.

I think I need to watch the conversation between the boys and Cas since that is where the conversation is right now. I kinda missed it because I was still trying to breathe from the whoopie cushion. Even rewinding didn't help at times.

Tennessee Whiskey

We are. It happened durring that brother seen you love so much, right at the start of it, Sam says something and Dean says "I opened the first seal" and Sam says 'you didn't know' and then Dean says 'neither did you' and then there was more brotherly talking about about being on equal ground and blah blah blah and then Dean gave Sam the keys to the Impala.

They've both killed innocent people because a demon was possessing them, but Sam intentionally killed an innocent woman who we can only assume was still screaming and begging for her own life, just for her blood! It wasn't to get the demon out of her, or to kill the demon, he wanted her blood. Addict or not, that makes it a whole lot more wrong then killing somebody to kill the demon.

The angels played Cas as much as Ruby played Sam, they told Cas what they wanted him to believe, he honestly thought that by pushing the apocalypse along, that he would be helping Dean, helping the world. "What's so worth saving? I see inside you, I see the pain and the guilt" It wasn't until Dean said otherwise that Cas caught a clue and figured out that the angels weren't all innocent and right in this thing. So if Sam's good inentions can excuse him from the things he's done, why doesn't tthat same excuse work with Cas? Sam thought he was doing good, he went about it all wrong, but he did think he was doing good. So did Cas.

Me too. I'm actually not expecting that much angst over it, I think it will fall along the lines of dude that was a ****ty move, but Dean will see where he's coming from, the three of them were all being used by angels or demons to get where they are now, and Dean's issues with Sam have nothing to do with starting the apocalypse but on chosing/trusting a demon over him. Cas' actions had nothing to do with that. I just can't see Dean holding a grudge about this info. But I would like to see it talked about.

Sin*

I guess I am just not seeing the point in bringing it up then. Sam and Dean had no way to kill the demon unless they killed the host. The two go hand in hand. It's not as if Sam knew of a way to force the demon out and chose not to because he wanted demon blood. Castiel wasn't there. Cas couldn't force them out with a touch of his hand. Sam didn't have his powers at that point where he could force the demon out psychically. There was no other alternative then to kill the host or else Sam, Dean, Jimmy and his family all would have died. As to why Sam drank the blood I thought that was obvious. It was the only way for him to salvage the rest of the hosts and to prevent any of the rest of them from getting hurt by the other demons. It's not about Sam killing the demon for it's blood. He did that to save everyone else. Or else Sam would have had to kill all of the hosts and risk the demons killing everyone in the warehouse. He didn't kill the woman "just to take her blood". He killed the woman because he had no other alternative and used her blood to destory all the rest of the demons that were inhabiting other hosts.

I don't think so. As it's been said before Sam wanted to use his abilities because he was able to save people with them instead of just killing them like they usually do.

It's not about the intentions thing. It's about the fact that Castiel himself chose the wrong side. Which makes him a hypocrite when he faults Sam for taking the "wrong" side. Especially when he originally chose the wrong side when he sided with the angels and started the apocolypse.

wicked games

thanks bee now i remember and feel completely stupid, i must have been too 'omgyay honest brother talking yay' to catch that the first time

addictedtolife

I definetly liked the epizode.Dean was very funny when he made the frozen face .Jessie was very cute.

btw. I am new in this forum.Hi i'm Veni

Tennessee Whiskey

Casey I didn't mean to make you feel stupid. ...I think it was probably the combination of brother moment/leather jacket it does things to a girls brain.

Hi Veni Welcome to the Supernatural board and to If you need help with anything or have any questions, just let us know.

addictedtolife

Thanks i'll ask .Im from one small contry in Europe and when we you watch Spn i sleep

wicked games

it definitely does things to a girls brain lol. I'm a little sad we didn't see that talk but at the same time I'm glad that Sam does know

Stargazer*

The viewers definetly should have seen a conversation like that.

wicked games

^ especially if it was after they reunited could've been super powerful scene