Mei Zhuo

I agree with you guys' estimation of the timeframe, I think it's probably around 25-30 years too

Anla

This really was a good way to find out some back story about Bobby, how he started hunting. Because it's not like Bobby and the Winchester boys were likely to sit down and have a deep heart-felt conversation about the traumas in their past.

Mei Zhuo

somehow, I don't see that ever happening. So yeah, this episode is a good way for the boys to see Bobby's past, and maybe discover more things about Bobby

Anla

Wonder if Sam ever tried asking Bobby why he started hunting. I mean, the guy did ask Isaac and Tamara in "Magnificent Seven" ('cause that's not likely to be a sensitive subject for someone they just met to ask them about, Sammy ).

Maybe when he was a kid. But no, don't see Bobby wanting to sit down with the Winchester boys and have a deep heart-to-heart about the horrific things in their past.

Bobby's communication is more like Winchesterese. Strong emotions come through, but it's more in action or impulsive blurting-out, then moving on without further discussion. No wonder he and Dean get along so well - they communicate on the same wavelength. Actions, like putting down Dean as his next-of-kin. And then Dean blurting out the line about how Bobby's like a father to him, and he's not losing him. Something which was the one thing that was able to get through to Bobby and make him fight his way out of the nightmare.

Anla

No sleep has an interesting effect on Dean.

But his decision to take the fight to Jeremy, that if they couldn't find him in the real world that he'd have to go into the dream and deal with him there - that was very Dean.

Mei Zhuo

Dean's cranky when he has no sleep

true, that decision of taking the fight to Jeremy and dealing with it was very Dean

Captain Oatsocute

I noticed this when I was watching Asylum and if it's already been brought up then just ignore my ramblings but it made me wonder.

The scene where Sam goes all psycho reminded me a lot of the nightmare Dean in this episode.

Not only are they both holding the same sawn off shot gun..




But they also say similar things in both scenes. Sammy says to Dean...

"Why are we even here? Cause you're following Dad's orders like a good little Soldier. Cause you always do what he says without question? Are you that desperate for his approval?

And Nightmare Dean tells Dean...

"Dad knew who you really were. A good soldier and nothing else. Daddy's blunt little instrument."

I just wondered if maybe there was a connection and if they purposefully mirrored the scene from asylum for a reason. Or if maybe it's just a coincidence cause both scenes are connected to how Dean feels about himself and John?

Folie

Interesting observation!

It could be a coincidence, but I do think it's also likely the scenes are mirrored because they do pretty much touch on quite a few similar issues.
It could very well be that Dean's subconsious has registered that moment from Asylum and identifies it with the whole "Dean, John, good little soldier" so in his nightmare he would replay it in a similar way.

Captain Oatsocute

Ooooh I never thought of that. And considering it was a dream it would make sense that he would draw on past experiences that have always haunted him or that he never quite resolved.

Tennessee Whiskey

Wow, Anita and Folie, good observations and thought! I never even noticed.

Anla

Ow. I never thought of that either - good catch. But it just hurts to think about. 'Cause that strongly suggests that the whole Asylum incident is still floating around in Dean's subconscious, that Sam's words from that still 'haunt' him. That they hurt him so deeply that years later they're still echoing around in his mind.

Although this time, Dean fought back, defended himself (both in words and then actually shooting Demon Dean). Which he didn't really do when Sam attacked in Asylum. Wonder if the difference is a sign of Dean starting to get some sense of self-worth and pride, rejecting the criticism. Or simply that Dean finds it easier to fight back against himself (even a demonic projection of himself) then against Sammy?

Captain Oatsocute

That is a horrible thought. Poor, poor Dean. *squishes him* I think it hurt Dean more hearing it come from Sammy, especially cause he was confirming how he already felt about his relationship with Dad.

I think your last point is the most accurate. Dean would not and could not ever fight against Sammy. Like Nightmare Dean said, his whole life has been and still is about protecting Sammy. He could never hate Sammy for anything he's ever said or done to him, he can only ever hate himself.

Mei Zhuo

I think so too, I think Dean would find it easier to fight back against himself than to fight back at/against Sam. Dean has lived his whole life protecting Sam and I think Dean is so used to his self-doubts that its easier to fight back against himself

good observations Folie and Anla, I never really thought of those angles

Folie

Yeah, I mean he's so used to beating up on himself it probably was easier to actually go at it with himself. At least this time around I would assume it was also a bit cathartic for him, considering the context and the circumstances.

Captain Oatsocute

^ Defiantly! But do you think he came any closer to finding any "closure" on those issues? The way he acted in LDC suggests he still follows Johns every word without question. Although he was pretty desperate at the time.