PhoenixRising

Thanks, sum1. I think comics helped me out a lot back then.

And I agree about the black and white outfit. It was a shame that it was a symbiote, but Peter eventually got another one that the Black Cat made for him, remember? She said she preferred the black & white costume, so for a time Peter alternated between the red and blue, and the black and white. At one point he had damaged his remaining red and blue suits to the point where he went with the black and white suits all the time... until Venom showed up. After that he ditched the suits because of how they affected Mary Jane, and I don't think Peter put the black and white suit back on until after Civil War when he joined the Secret Avengers.

And I think nostalgia was the reason I read X-Factor as well. Having the original five X-Men back in their own separate title was kind of fun, and a lot of new characters were introduced like Mister Sinister and Apocalypse. People forget that they weren't introduced in X-Men comics at all. I think the original X-Men team were more in the mold of the Fantastic Four and that's probably why I embraced them. And it was the 80's. There were simply no bad comic book storylines back then, or very few of them. The art wasn't always the best, but the stories were epic.

crash landing

I'll try to catch up later

sum1

Comics helped my survive the election last year and the Trump era this year.

Actually, Mr Sinster first appeared in Uncannny X-Men 221, and that was led up to by the Mutant Massacre crossover which included a number of Uncanny X-Men issues. But yes, Apocalypse was originally an X-Factor villain. As for storylines in the '80s, well I feel the X-Men went into quality decline after Mutant Massacre (late '86) and didn't recover until the early '90s. It wasn't terrible, but it was mediocre. And actually it did become terrible briefly when the X-Men were sent through Siege Perilous and split up and popped up around the world. That was around 1989/1990.

PhoenixRising

Well, I don't need comics for that, sum1. This was when I was a teenager and going through a rough period with my parents' divorce and being bullied at school, and comics were a welcome escape. I'm a grown up now and I think alcohol works better for that.

Oh, really? Damn, I didn't think Sinister was in Uncanny since his main interest was Scott and Jean, who were in X-Factor by then. I first saw him in X-Factor, but yeah, since he created the Madelyne clone I guess he must've appeared in Uncanny first. Again, I really wasn't reading Uncanny back then because Scott and Jean weren't in it, and they were pretty much my focus. And I remember the Mutant Massacre. That was right before the Inferno crossover storyline, which I know you hate. It was also when the two teams finally crossed paths and the other X-Men learned that Jean was alive. And Wolverine acted like a cad, as usual. Warren really let him have it for that, skewering him with steel feathers as Archangel.

sum1

Alcohol is inadvisable except in small amounts.

He was involved with the Marauders first. They were the guys who carried out the Mutant Massacre. Sabertooth and co.

Mutant Massacre was years before Inferno. Mutant Massacre was in 1986. Inferno was in 1989. In between there was the Fall of the Mutants.
Warren was in no position to play superior. But then all he's ever done is play superior. Guy's got wings so he thinks he's God's gift, never mind so many other superheroes can fly too, and without any pesky wings in the way. Lamest X-Man ever. And making him Archangel didn't improve him much. He never had more than a two-dimensional personalilty. I never had much time for Iceman either, even after they upgraded up his powers, but at least he wasn't objectionable like Warren. Those two never came to life properly. As for Jean, she was never more than a particular era's idea of the ideal woman. Like Susan Storm, they upgraded her power but never gave her a real personality. Beast and Scott were the only original X-Men with full personalities and neither were at their best stuck with the original X-Men team. So naturally I wasn't too interested in X-Factor. I read some of it anyway, but I often found it a snoozefest.

Sorry, that was a bit nasty, but you kind of set me off by gloating over Warren skewering my favorite X-Men character.

PhoenixRising

I know, that's why I only have it in small amounts to deal with stuff like that. Or to just relax. But I rarely drink. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you, sum1. I wasn't gloating about Warren skewering Wolverine per se, but just someone doing it because Wolverine once again felt entitled to just grab Jean like a piece of meat and kiss her right there in front of everyone, including Scott. He's the quintessential guy who can't take a hint. Scott is who she loves; Wolverine is more like a plate of brownies to a diabetic. It's not healthy and even she knows it's stupid, but he doesn't get it. And it got really annoying, and more than likely lead to the X-Men movies depicting Scott and Jean in that utterly disgraceful way that totally ruined both their characters. I suspect that's why Marvel finally ended that whole thing and Fox finally did right by Scott and Jean in Apocalypse. But at the time in the 80's I was really sick of Logan's presumptuousness. I disliked it when he was that way with Peter Parker as well. I actually didn't really start to love the character until Hugh Jackman played him, and he really nailed it.

Well, Mutant Massacre and Inferno were still only three years apart, sum1. And with only one comic coming out per month, that's only 36 issues, and it felt like it went by really fast to me as a teenager.

dragonfire

Well it seems in the recent comics Disney/Marvel brought in a young Wolverine and now it seems there's a love triangle between young Scott/Jean/Wolverine. As for Old Man Logan it seems Disney/Marvel having him team up with Spider-Gwen. And Magneto is facing Peter Parker in Renew Your Vows. And didn't in the old comics Peter Parker kissed Jean without her permission? And didn't Sue used to have a crush on Peter Parker?

sum1

I think you're simplifying the situation greatly. Despite certain failings, Wolverine is in fact in many ways more female-friendly and more female-centric than the majority of Marvel's male heroes. That's been established over numerous issues of his own comic and the X-Men titles, many of those comics being ones which I suspect you haven't read. You seem to think Scott OWNS Jean. He doesn't. But he was married to Madelyne, and we saw where that went.

Just so you know, accusing Logan with regard to Jean and calling him "the quintessential guy who can't take a hint" is to me sort of what accusing Hank Pym over hitting Jan is to you.

Again, I think you're simplifying. It was established that Jean and Logan have a strong bond and good friendship. And again, Scott doesn't bloody own her.


Did X-Men: Apocalypse do right by Jean and Scott? An overly short, fidgety actor to play Scott, who's supposed to be 6'3" and commanding. A great actress to play Jean admittedly and she did a great job, but unfortunately she's of the wrong nationality and that's blatant in her acting. Justice done to the characters? Not yet.

Logan is supposed to be presumptuous. He's not a polite, conservative character like Scott or a goody-goody like Peter Parker or Steve Rogers. He's a '70s rebel antihero. That's the point of him. He's supposed to challenge the established order of things. As for his interactions with Spider Man, if I got annoyed with anybody there it was Peter, with his stupid self-righteous, goody-goody morality and moral superiority. He was such a pain in the ass in their late '80s crossover book.

That's questionable. If you cast a white actor as Luke Cage could you say he nailed it even if he did a very good acting job? Wolverine's 5'3" height is a key part of the character and sets up so much of his personality dynamic. At nearly 6'3", Hugh Jackman is about a foot too tall. In that sense, he's all wrong. It's true that he got other aspects of Wolverine very well and he did a very good acting job, but what he acted is still not the same character as is in the comics.

36 issues is a lot of comics. A lot can happen in 36 issues. Actually, there were only 26 issues between Mutant Massacre and Inferno, from the end of 1986 to the beginning of 1989, but that's still enough for a lot to happen. A whole era of the X-Men passed in that time. I could understand if you said The Fall of the Mutants came right after Mutant Massacre, but not Inferno.

PhoenixRising

That's a different Wolverine, dragonfire. The young Wolverine is X-23, Laura Kinney, who was portrayed in the movie Logan by Dafne Keen. She's Logan's daughter/female clone, and she's taken on the role of Wolverine after Logan's "death." And yeah, she ended up having a major crush on Cyclops, which is ironic in the extreme. But it wasn't really a trianle between Scott, Jean, and Laura, as Scott and Jean had put thier relationship on hold after having been brought to the present day and learing what happened to their older, present-day selves.

I never said that Scott "owned" Jean, sum1, nor do I think that. But there is a thing called etiqutte, sum1. You don't disrespect someone else's relationship. Do you call expecing your other half to be faithful to you and show that they love you as much as you love them "ownership?" In real life, a woman in a similar situation would've slapped someone who tried to do what Logan always did with Jean, okay? Wolverine was acting a bit entitled and presumtuous by thinking that he could just butt in between them just becuase he felt like any woman withing his immediate vicinity was fair game. Remember when Wolverine first met Jean, he wasn't trying to establish a friendship, he was full-on hitting on her, and Warren of all people had to inform him that she was spoken for. And for the record, Warren annoyed me as well becasue he also made advances on Jean which made him a hypocrite. But I do consider Scott and Jean a sacred couple, like Clark and Lois, or Peter and Mary Jane(no matter what Dan Slott says), or Reed and Susan.

And once again, I apologize if I'm offending you, and I don't mean to insult what I know is your favorite character, but it did get annoying to me over time how Wolverine was constantly making inappropriate advances on Jean. It's not about ownership, sum1. You just don't do that to a couple who are supposed to be your friends, and especially not your teammates. That isn't the best thing to do if you expect to be a cohesive team and fighting unit. And if I'm totally wrong on this, sum1, then why did Marvel completely eradicate the entire Scott/Jean/Logan thing in the comics, killing off present-day Scott, Jean, and Logan, and replacing them with teenage Scott and Jean from the past(a Jean with no memory of ever being friends with or intrigued by Logan), and making Laura/X-23 the new Wolverine? If no one at Marvel thought the same way, it wouldn't have been necessary. But I'm pretty sure that the X-Men writers had decided that enough was enough with that whole mess.

And as for Madelyne, Scott thought that Jean was dead at that point, and she wasn't the first woman he had gotten with after Jean died. There was another blonde woman whose name I forget, but she became infatuated with Scott and while he initially became interested, he decided to pull back, telling her it was too soon for him after Jean's death. I didn't see Logan as challenging the established order of things, I saw him as just being jerk for the sake of being a jerk because he felt that his way of seeing things was the only way. And I didn't like Wolverine's attitude with Spider-Man because Logan kept treating Peter like an amateur when Peter had been a superhero longer than almost anyone in the Marvel universe except for Captain America, Iron Man, and The Fantastic Four. Sure, Logan has been alive longer than Peter, but Peter was doing the superhero thing long before Logan quit being Weapon X and joined the X-Men. Peter had gone though more than his fair share of tragedy and suffering, yet still held to his own moral code and didn't just slip into cynicism and apathy. I don't think that's anything to be ridiculed nor do I think it's self-righteousness or moral superiority.

Also, three years for me as a teen didn't really feel like an era had passed, but perhaps it was becuase I was a teen. For me, everything from 1984 to 1989 felt like an era passing, but that's becuase I probably felt time pass differently, that's all. The 80's for me seemed a lot longer for some reason, but becauase comics only came out once a month it didn't feel the same way for some reason. And as far as the movies go, look... I've complained more than anyone about how Cyclops has been treated and how they keep casting these short beta-males as Cyclops. I keep thinking it's gotta be Bryan Singer and his mentality, but at this point I'll take what we got in Apocalypse. At least we got a movie where Scott and Jean were a team, a twosome, and had the chemistry and "I got your back and you got mine" stuff they originally had in the comics. Do I wish Scott were taller? Yes, but Hollywood is filled with all these short guys. And as far as Hugh Jackman in concerend, I think his height is about the only thing about him that fails the character. Sure, Logan in the comics is a short guy, but I think in every other aspect Jackman nailed it. If I could digitally chop Jackman down by a foot and lift Sheridan up five inches I would, but I'm gonna be satisfied by the fact that they at least came close. I'm sick of expecting Hollywood to know what they're doing because they always make one excuse after another of why they don't get it right.

crash landing

Count me lost

PhoenixRising

Read a damn comic book.

crash landing

I've read a single one

sum1

No, but you act like it.

Logan doesn't do etiquette and to expect him to is to really fail to understand the character. As usual you don't understand the character at all and keep making wild generalizations about him. If this keeps up I'm going back to talking about what Hank did to Jan. And I don't believe in fictional couples being sacred and untouchable.

Talk about not being able to take hint and know when to stop! Haven't you caught on that I'm soundly sick of hearing you rant about this? I asked you to back off so we could keep friendly, but you've thrown that out the window.


You think the decisions of modern Marvel writers are some sort of sign of what's right or wrong? Well that's a crock. They don't know crap and their decisions are indications of no more than the whims of Disney. Disney/Marvel Screwed up and got rid of Wolverine, Scott and Jean because they wanted to stick it to Fox. Simple as that.

Scott married Madelyne and betrayed her.

Which just goes to show you don't understand the character and probably don't want to because you're still bitter about stuff from back in the '80s.

Wolverine was active as a super-powered operative long before Peter was born. And Peter IS an amateur. That's part of his charm, so much as he has any.
And I emphatically disagree. He's a goody two shoes like Steve Rogers. That type of character is always a pain.

Actually, Hollywood is filled with all these tall guys.

Except the height is one of the most important aspects of the character.

Now I'm done with this discussion. This has gotten too unpleasant. I will not read any further posts on the topic from Phoenix Rising. I tried to preserve the board peace by getting him to back off a touchy subject. Now I'm going to preserve it by pulling out.

crash landing

Fair enough is it just respectful disagreeing or do I need to pull the to issue some punishment

I know he's touchy about a certain thing within Marvel

If its been respectable disagreeing without issue Thank you for backing away if it were heading towards not so respectful

sum1

I just want to forget about it. It's ruined my evening.