erinw

genki, I agree re: Ben's dad. His struggle with his father made Ben a much more emotionally complex character. I really grew to understand him much more. I wish they had done more with this plot line during season 3.

Anyway, moving on to "Greeks and Geeks," what did everyone think of the frat party incident? Was it realistic? Why was Felicity so darn upset about Julie when they hadn't even really been that good of friends since season 1? Did anyone else cringe when you saw Felicity wake up next to Randy and then go outside and puke in the trash can? I felt so bad for her. And on another topic, what is up with Elena at this point in time? Why do you think she was so tempted by Finn? Is sex all that really mattered to her at this time? I had a hard time feeling sorry for her re: her break up with Tracy later on.

Caleon

Erin, I thought Felicity getting so drunk at the frat party (or someone slipping something into her drink) a little far-fetched. She struck me as too careful/watchful for that kind of thing. But it does happen, and I'm glad they gave us the gritty side of things, waking up in a bed with someone and not knowing how she got there, and throwing up in the trash can. Shows you that you're going to pay for partying if you choose to party that hard.

I was very surprised at the violence with which Ben beat him up when the guy went to say nothing happened. During the conversation you could see the "get away from me" warning vibe building up in Ben, but I never thought Ben would get so violent. Even with everything Ben's been through, he had up to that point seemed like the kind of guy who shrank away from conflict. I guess even Ben can get pushed too far!

I think Elena was into Finn basically because Finn wasn't Tracy. That and the writers needed a storyline for her! They could have done so much more with Elena this season.

Alge

I too think the frat party, getting drunk, and sleeping next to a random guy was far fetched for Felicity's character. I understand that the writers needed this story line to delve further into the FAB relationship, but I think maybe they could have taken another road. I mean its not like there were any other storylines where alcohol was involved with them getting drunk. it just didnt seem to fit.

With that said though, I loved watching it unfold. the ending scene where Javier gets his citizenship and felicity and megan walk in. felicity goes right up to ben they hug and kiss and ben asks if everything was OK. I love how they always know when one another is upset or sad. you could tell felicity regretted the night before and lying to ben truly upset her. ben looked so happy though, even though he really didnt know what was about to go down.

i also liked how in this episode you could tell how much the friendship between megan and felicity meant to megan. i think this was the show where we finally show that megan wasnt the mean hearted person that she portrayed. the way she went out of her way to get felicity out of the apartment b/c she looked so down, and how horrible she felt when they couldnt find felicity i think showed what a strong friendship they really had forged

diana5

Welcome to the Felicity board, Alge !

Granny

I know I'm a little behind with this discussion but I'm determined to catch up. I really liked this episode because of all of the interaction between the characters. It also was the episode that set up future storylines.

Noel & Natalie: I thought the interaction between these two was great. You never could figure out where Natalie was coming from. Just about the time you thought that she was fighting to keep their marriage together because she really loved Noel, you find out about the inheritance. Those scenes between Noel and the judge were priceless. Noel’s reaction every time Natalie upset his plans for the annulment was so funny. And I loved Noel trying to convince the judge that he was impotent. I also liked Noel trying to figure out if he should stay married to get the money and everyone having an opinion about it. I'm not sure what I would have done if I were presented with the same proposal. Hmmm.

Molly: My first reaction to Molly wasn’t great. She just seemed pretty far out there and not really too believable.

Sean & Megan: This was the typical Sean/Megan interaction. I liked Sean’s reaction about the nose job when Megan brought it up. I think it showed how insecure Sean really was. It also demonstrated Megan’s softer side.

Julie: My feelings about Julie kept changing throughout the episode. You knew something was going on with her. She just seemed so lost and lonely. The first scene with Ben at the basketball court was very touching. It seemed like she was reaching out for some kind of connection. I didn’t get the feeling that it was anything romantic but just something to hold onto. Then when she was telling Felicity about spending the day with Ben and their special connection, I couldn’t figure out if it was innocent or she actually was trying to cause some trouble. I still don’t know what to think about that scene.

In the scene at the elevator I didn’t get the feeling that she was trying to exclude Felicity for any devious reason. She knew that Ben hadn’t talked to Felicity about his dad before and I thought she was just respecting his wishes. I liked the whole scene and all the interaction. When she blurted out that she had refused to donate her kidney to her father and that’s why he died, I actually cringed. Every time I watch the goodbye video I tear up. No matter if you liked Julie or not I think that was one of the most touching moments on the show and a great way for the character to leave the show.

Ben & Felicity: Naturally I saved the best for last. What can I say about the “rabid monkey” scene? It was one of the most romantic scenes between two people that I can remember. There was this natural connection between the two that you can actually feel as well as see. Every little gesture and facial expression was just perfect. I liked the way the mood changed when Ben got the call from his mother and you could feel the whole dynamic change. Great acting.

I was a little upset with Ben when he shut Felicity out about why he was not going to look for his father until he finally broke down and explained what he was going through. Back in season one we found out some of the things that Ben’s father had done to the family but in the scene on the street you saw how deeply Ben was affected by his past.

I liked the scene in the hallway where Ben comes to apologize but I do wish he would have said he was sorry. I know Felicity understood but sometimes she lets him off too easy. One of the most powerful scenes between Ben and Felicity was in the hospital where just holding hands and being there for each other was so powerful and expressed so much.

This got a lot longer than I planned but there was a lot going on in this episode.

Love, Jan

erinw

Ladies, I am loving the discussion. I don't have much time this morning to comment, but I wanted to say that I agree with both Caleon and Alge; Felicity going to the frat party and getting so drunk was really out of character. I just didn't understand why she did it. I know she needed to get out and try to get herself feeling better about Julie leaving, but I think it all went a bit too far. I knwo in college many people do things like that, but I just didn't think it was very like Felicity. But watching it play our over the next couple episodes, and how it tested FAB's relationship, was good stuff. I enjoyed the dramatic scenes and their eventual reconciliation. But, back to "Freak and Geeks," how come Ben didn't worry about where she had been and hadn't noticed she wasn't at home? That always struck me as odd.

Granny

Welcome, Alge. Glad to see you on the Felicity board.

I don't think the frat party incident was farfedtched when trying to tell a story about college life. While Felicity's core character was not normally involved with drinking or wild parties, the way they presented the storyline seemed very logical to me and something that happens all the time. You have a girl who is not really use to drinking, who goes to a frat party with friends. She is encouraged by her friends to have a few jello shots. They are all having a good time. It doesn't take much alcohol for someone of Felicity's size to lose control. And jello shots are very deceptive and almost pure alcohol. I don't blame Felicity for what happened but Meghan and Molly for not watching out for their friend.

Love, Jan

erinw

Jan, I could be wrong, but I thought Ben did say he was sorry here. Something like "I am sorry about before, I shouldn't have taken it out on you." However, I agree with your statement about Felicity letting him off too easily. That happened twice in this season. First, when he bought her painting and he told her she was the only one he can trust. It's a beautiful moment, and very heartfelt, but he needed to apologize more, he had been a real jerk to her. Especially when he threw the lamp down and scared her. But more than that, he needed to really, really apologize for the Avery crap. That was unacceptable and she let him off way too easily.

The Idiot

I think the whole "sorry" question is an interesting one. My feeling on this is that an awful lot of TV drama has characters making fulsome apologies whereas in fact in life people don't often apologise too much, at least not in as direct a way as that. I think this is especially true when a relationship is still developing and the participants are perhaps not as confident in the relationship as they might be. In a sense they may feel that apologising is undermining themselves. Sounds strange I know, but perhaps at that stage, you don't want to deliberately draw attention to your own weaknesses by owning up to them. Likewise with Felicity being too soft on Ben sometimes. You could argue that she didnt want to push things too far by being too angry and so she let things slide to try to keep the relationship on an even keel. She didn't let him get away with it in the beginning of the relationship when she broke up with him the first time but then she knew she was going to break up with him and hence was able to speak her mind. In these instances she may have been holding back because she wanted the relationship to continue and might have worried that had she spoken to him too strongly it might have had adverse consequences. At the same time, both Felicity and Ben were quite sensitive people and ultimately would have realised the effect their actions had on each other. I admire people who call others on their behaviour, it's a good thing to do for the most part but I just don't think it happens too often and it's more likely to occur in a strong stable relationship.


I'm just reading this through again. If anyone understands what I was trying to say, let me know...

erinw

Id, I understand you completely. And I think you made a very interesting point. To paraphrase you, people who are in a new relationship don't apologize for their behavior often for two reasons. First, they are afraid of pointing out their weaknesses and their partner then saying "so long" (obviously that is an exaggeration, but you get the idea). Second, new relationships are delicate and arguments can be very intimidating. If you tell your partner you are upset with them, and you are not yet firmly entrenched in your relationship, this can be scary. You are afraid of losing them. So people will often not say what they want to for fear of the relationship falling apart. Felicity is definitely the type that would want to protect the relationship. I can definitely see this as true in the beginning of season 3, when they are still so new in their relationship. But by the time the Avery crap rolls around, I just think Felicity should've demanded more of an explanation. We can discuss this more when we get to that series of episodes, which I must admit, I dread.

I had a mini-Felicity marathon last night. I watched Greeks and Geeks through One Ball, Two Strikes. I really love Surprise even though there are many sad scenes between FAB. And that scene where Ben wakes Felicity up with kisses on her shoulder, my God, there are no words for how happy that scene makes me. It does have a sad quality since Felicity has not told him about the frat party incident yet, but that kiss he gives her........wow!

I must admit that as normal I only watched FAB's scenes when I watched these episodes, so forgive me for my discussion points being mainly about them. First, I must say that I love how intense Ben was about preparing Felicity's party. I just fell in love with him more watching him plan all of it. My heart broke for him watching how it all turned out. Do you think Ben was too angry with Felicity? Or was his anger appropriate? The scene in D&D was really hard to watch. In One Ball, Two Strikes, the scene where he throws down the lamp in his anger seemed a bit too over the top for me. I know they were showing his anger, but that was really scary. Do you think Ben was mostly upset with Felicity for not telling him what happened? That is the impression I got when he said "you are the only one I can trust, and I need that." I suspect he was really devastated by these events because he had put all of his trust and faith in her and then she lied to him. Perhaps he had felt this would never happen, because he puts her on a pedestal, and thinks she is perfect in some way. So this experience showed him that he has to work to keep their relationship, and even when he feels hurt and betrayed, he needs to work through it with her. Because he wants her in his life. This was new to him, since he had never worked so hard to keep a relationship. What do you all think?

I think someone might need to paraphrase me, too, since I am not sure I am making sense either!

Granny

Erin, I really agree that Felicity let Ben off to easy with the whole Avery and Southampton thing. At the beginning of the episode Felicity specifically asked Ben if he was confused about Avery and and he said "Maybe". Then he goes off with Avery. When Felicity follows him and pours her heart out he tells her he is still confused. All of a sudden at the end of the episode it's all about him facing his own mortality. After everything he put her through, that explaination was definitely not enough.

Love, Jan

Alge

i'm torn on the subject (ben/avery/felicity)
i'm not sure if i think felicity let ben off to easily or it was justified. ben told her he was confused and needed some time to think. even though going out to south hampton was a crummy thing to do, he was exploring his feelings. holding them in just to keep felicity happy would have hurt their relationship down the road i feel.
i think ben was just being honest and it was up to felicity to wait. she gave him the space he asked for and waited for him to come back with things clearer in his head i think left him with a clearer understanding of what he wanted and who he loved which thank god was felicity
i dont really think he had anything to apoligize for. he was confused and needed time to think which he was very honest about from the beginning. and she agreed to that and said she would give it to him
when he returned from his trip to talk to her i think what he said was perfect. i have watched it over and over again and cant get enough. in the end true love squashed whatever he was confused about and he realised what he had and what he would be giving up.

Granny

I still believe that Felicity let Ben off too easily with the whole Avery business. They had been dating seriously for a year and a half and making plans for the future. Then Avery shows up and Ben becomes "confused" about his feelings. He even goes off for a weekend with this woman and Felicity is suppose to sit home and wait for him to make up his mind about who and what he wants. I think after what Ben put Felicity through she deserves a little more groveling than she got.

Love, Jan

erinw

Alge, I enjoyed reading your perspective on the Ben/Felicity/Avery storyline. It's interesting how people can see stories in different ways, I think that shows the power of storytelling itself. I can definitely see what you are saying about Ben needing the space to think things through, and Felicity did give it to him. I guess in some ways I have a problem with that in itself- why did she let him go so easily? I can respect his need to figure out his confusion, but I just don't understand, nor can I accept, the confusion itself. I just don't believe a man who is completely in love with someone, like Ben is with Felicity, would be "confused" over another woman. I know that he was ultimately confused about seeing Avery almost die, but it didn't come across that way through most of the episodes. I think this whole story puts him in a bad light and I prefer to try and forget it ever happened. But that's just my two cents.

Keyser_Soze

I wasn't that happy with the Avery storyline, but later in S4 after Felicity slept with Noel, Ben said if it had happened a year ago he would have understood and would have thought he deserved to have been cheated on.

I think the writers throwing that in later actually gave me a better idea of how badly the Ben character felt, although I wish they'd shown that in S3.