erinw

Excellent point, Keyser_Soze. I think the writers were actually setting up the Felicity cheating on Ben storyline when they wrote the Avery debacle. I always felt that when Ben left for the summer, Felicity seemed a bit unsure about their relationship. I don't like her feeling that way, nor do I think it should be that way, but that was the impression I got.

ds44

Okay this is the way I see the Avery/Ben/Felicity debacle. I think he was confused about the attention. We have to remember we are talking about a 21 year old here. Guys that age do really stupid things and so do girls. I think he really loved felicity, but hadn't completely grown up. I think he did love her, but he felt terribly guilty about AVery. I think she used that guilt. I don't sense he was so much confused about her than his attachment to her on a non-sexual level. I think he was afraid and didn't know how to express that to her. I didn't like the story line and half-the time it made you want to throw things at the tv screen. But, it was an interesting set up for the next season. I would have preferred that she go with him. Its not like she actualy had anything to do in ny anyway...but, i think deep down she was pissed at him and then after what happened iwth noel in season 4 she was racked with guilt. on a story telling level it works. As a FAB I hate it, but I guess thats what makes this show so good

Alge

i totally agree. they were only juniors in college. who knows exactly what they want when they are that age. i think ben knew that he loved felicity, but at the same time he is a guy and he has this pretty girl completely following him around and adoring him. it was a difficult situation for him. plus on top of that he experienced something with her that was very profound to him. so profound that he wanted to become a doctor b/c of it.

also at that point in their relationship they were only dating for like 8 or 9 months. thats a very short time for someone like ben to be dating someone since he never really had a long term relationship with someone he loved. every relationship at some point has its bumps and turns and this situation with avrey was just one of them.

but i loved how when ben called from south hampton and meghan picked up she told him off and told him if he hurt felicity she would kill him or something like that.

The Idiot

Re: the whole Avery thing, I think Sean's rant from Sophomoric sums a lot of it up.

SEAN: Yeah, pretty good. Ben, listen to me, okay? I like Felicity, but, I mean, you’re not ready for that. She is this thoughtful, challenging, complicated girl who examines the world she sees and you’re… you’re like this idiot. I mean, it’s not your fault. You’re a young guy. I’m telling you, man, you get caught up in this and its drama and pain and you’ve blown the relationship for the rest of your life.

What do I mean by that? Basically, Felicity was complicated and difficult (but in a good way) and Avery was simple and easy (in a bad way...) and to an extent what we saw was Ben wrestling with his old persona and his new persona. The old Ben (the one who Felicity broke up with) took the easy way out in his relationships, didn't want to be challenged didn't really think about where they were going too much. The new Ben decided that he wanted the "thoughtful, challenging complicated girl" that Sean mentioned but Avery came along and kept tempting him back to his old ways. Making offers to get him the test, plying him with gifts, not being demanding and it so he reverted a little bit to his old persona before realising what he was doing and that he'd really changed and he didn't want to go back along that route. With Felicity he was going to get some drama and maybe some pain and he would have to confront some of his personal demons (lack of self-confidence, naivete in some situations) but in the end he'd get a much more substantial relationship, whereas with Avery it would all be easy. Lots of money to smooth the way etc. So, it was not surprising he was tempted, Avery pushed all the right buttons and I've always thought that the whole storyline was well set-up. He wrestled with his demons, Felicity told him how she felt and he came to his senses in time and the new mature Ben came through in the end.

ETA - I've always wanted to know what Ben wanted to say to Felicity when he phoned her from Southampton and ended up on the receiving end of a Meghan rant instead.

workerbee

that did not make sense to me. If you love a person, you go wherever, and make the best of it because you love them. It wasn't like Ben went off with so meone, he went to better himself and he asked her if she would ever go and she said she couldn't. I don't think she had a valid reason except they were setting up the whole she slept with Noel thing.

workerbee

Well, the first part of my reply did not post for some reason. I was saying that I could not stand Noel in Season 3, because of his "better than you" attitude towards Ben. He had done the same thing in season 1 by going off with Hannah. Felicity irritated me too in the last half of season 3> It seemed as if she was more concerned about her relationship with Noel than with her relationship with Ben. She even went to dr Pavone about it. SHe did not ask for her help with the whole Avery thing. And remember Ben did not go off with Avery until after he saw Noel and Felicity on the street and she would not talk with him, but went off with Noel to the movies. And did you notice that Ben and Felicity never kissed on the mouth in the last part of Season 3, they hugged a lot and kissed on the cheek, but never on the mouth. Maybe in real life, Keri and Scott had broken up by then. I thought it was odd.

erinw

I am loving all this discussion. I have so much I want to comment on, but I will try to keep it brief.

This is a good point. It really bothered me as well to see her more worried about a faulty friendship with Noel than strengthening her relationship with Ben. I really think you are right that this was all set up for what happened in season 4's opening episode.

I have noticed that and it becomes even more evident in season 4. But I have no idea if it had anything to do with Keri and Scott's real life relationship.

I agree 100%. It never sat well with me that Felicity didn't go with Ben. I don't like the way this episode feels, it seems as if they are drifting apart and I don't like the ending one bit. Felicity didn't give a very good excuse for not going with him and really didn't seem as upset as he did about their separation. This has always bugged me and I feel it is insincere, because the Felicity we know would want to be with Ben and make it work somehow.

I have to run now, but I will comment more tomorrow. I really enjoyed reading everyone else's comments, especially Id's.

erinw

I really enjoyed reading all of your perspective's on the Avery storyline. It's really interesting to see so many different points of view on this most hated storyline. I feel as if I missed a lot of this when I was watching this story take place the first time. The only way I remember responding was out of anger and frustration with Ben. Perhaps it's because I adore him and this made him seem like a jerk. Maybe I think he is perfect and didn't like the way it made him appear weak. I don't know. But I think you all make very good points. Ben is indeed only 21 at the time and perhaps he was battling with his old habits. And they were new in their relationship. I just don't think it was fair to Felicity and he didn't explain himself well. That's the main reason I take issue with this storyline- I just think he didn't apologize enough nor did he explain his confusion well enough. I could understand why Felicity seemed pissed at him and less confident about their relationship. And it really depresses me, to be honest.

workerbee

My computer keeps kicking me. I enjoy all the comments and have tried to respond but this computer is constantly kicking me out. Sorry.
I just feel like the Felicity in Season 1 would have gone with Ben to Kansas City. I think the writers lost perspective about the show or they were just trying to boost ratings. I still love the show, I just could not stand Noel in Season 3 and 4. I am not that big of a Noel fan from the beginning anyway, though I liked him more in Season 2. Do you think Scott Foley had a hair piece on in Season 3. I just feel like he did. Noel/Felicity spend much more time together than ben/felicity and I think Noel deliberately tried to make Ben look bad to Felicity's mother.

The Idiot

Just a query. Do you use AOL? I had a problem with the AOL browser. They use a proxy server to access the site and for some reason it doesn't recognise when you log in. I used to get that problem, kept on logging in and getting logged out again and occasionally I would manage to get a post submitted and then I switched to using Internet Explorer ( or you could try Firefox) to log in to FF and there was no problem. I did post a message about the problem on one of the FF boards and they said they would try to look at it. I don't much like the AOL browser anyway, I prefer Explorer but then Explorer has loads of security problems. Also, just make sure you're not rejecting cookies from the site.

Granny

I'm late as usual getting in on this discussion but here are a few of my thoughts.

Felicity’s reaction to Noel in the last half of season 3 bothered me too especially after he confessed that he was still in love with her. I understand that she wanted to keep him as a friend. But after he took back the job offer if Ben went to along, it should have been clear to her that he was trying to break them up and not something a true friend would do.

I don’t think this had anything to do with the actors but was part of the story. In Girl Fight you have Ben and Felicity being very much together and romantic. After that the trouble starts. The rest of the season there was nothing but other people coming between them. By not having them kiss as they did before I think they wanted to give you that feeling of the distance that was coming between them.

I really agree with you and Erin on this point. It never made any sense that Felicity didn’t go with Ben to Kansas City. There was no reason for her to stay in NYC over the summer. She didn’t even have a job. And if she didn’t want to go with Ben, why didn’t she go home and see her family. The whole thing just seemed phony and not true to Felicity.

I can’t give Ben any break here. Actually Felicity told Avery that they had been dating a year and a half. That’s a long time. How long is Ben suppose to have before he doesn’t get confused again? I mean what’s the cut off?

Something else that bothered me about this whole thing is that Avery didn’t show up until 4 months after the shooting. During that time Ben didn’t seem concerned or confused about the whole “life and death” issue. Noel was the one who was most affected by the question and all of it’s implications. Now Avery shows up and Ben suddenly starts on a downward spiral. I didn't buy it and thought it was poor writing.

Love, Jan

Granny

Some more thoughts.

Erin, I agree with you on the whole Ben thing. I think Felicity deserved a lot more than she got. I was thinking about his reaction to the frat-party incident. He wouldn’t talk to her for a week, he pouted like a baby, and even lost his temper. He goes off for a weekend with another woman and when he comes back he just says now he knows what he wants. I think she deserved a lot more in the way of an explanation, an apology and real groveling.

Love, Jan

workerbee

workerbee

I do use Aol. I will try to see about using the other things you suggested. It has happened to me several times. Thanks for the info

workerbee