Nikki K

Thanks and I know. I feel so happy because actually that's the first time I get to see those episodes (the cancelled the show around here in the middle of season 1).

I'll be back later with more... opinions and happy bouncing (I hope).

Jay

One Ball, Two Strikes: the scene where ben bought felicity's running man drawing....that did it for me. what a beautiful scene.

there were many cute little FAB moments....like the bearhug on the bed, to the christening bathtub scene to the teary hug in "it's raining men" where ben told felicity about his test mark.....

the things i hated about season 3:

-Avery...everything about her is ughh!
-Noel's wild look in the earlier episodes, then again, everything about him i don't like
-Molly's b/f (the whole killing storyline which if it didn't happen, Avery would have never shown up, and there wouldn't be a strain on FAB's relationship of this magnitude in the first place)
-Noel's first g/f-natalie and his other one, Tyra banks character

I never really liked Julie but it was hard to watch her goodbye scene.

The Idiot

I could certainly see him having a "slump" for the reasons you state, and maybe a fling with Natalie for a short time, a week or two maybe, but I just couldn't see that phase continuing for as long as it did because while Noel might have secretly wanted that for a while, he was, fundamentally an intelligent person (which is not to say he was wise but nevertheless...) and sooner or later he would have realised that while it was fun for a short time, it wasn't really "him". I just felt he would have come to his senses sooner that he did and have asked himself the questions that everyone else started to ask him when he re-appeared as Leon. Where is the money going to come from to fund this lifestyle? What am I going to do with the rest of my life etc etc.? You (maybe I mean me ) can put those questions aside for a short time but I just didn't think that Noel would have been able to put those questions aside for as long as he did. To an extent it's similar to what they did with Felicity through the summer before senior year, projecting doubt and uncertainty onto an intelligent character and I just felt in both cases, they overdid it.

ds44

Self-doubt and putting things aside has nothing to do with intelligence. I think that was the point they were trying to make with both situations. Despite my anger about certain plot elements in the last season I thought it was well done. Senior year is often about doubt, no matter how smart you are. It was the cheating-story line obsession that came off as unnatural.

The Idiot

Absolutely true. Things like common sense have no correlation with intelligence either (as I can tell from many of the people I work with ). However when you ally intelligence with a degree of self-awareness, then you have a mechanism for dealing with self-doubt when it strikes so that you may suffer from it for a while but you're able to snap yourself out of it. You also build up a store of experience where you've dealt with problems in the past and you pull yourself back and say "Hey I managed to deal with all that in the past, I can deal with this". The point I'm trying to make about Noel's dalliance with Natalie is that I felt that the duration of Noel's metamorphosis into Leon was too long. I could see him running off with Natalie for a short time and letting things go, but I couldn't see him not starting to come to his senses when he came back to NYC, or when the new academic year started. I also couldn't see him not coming to his senses when he was about to make his vows with Natalie. Noel had a lot of faults, but he wasn't Britney Spears... Even given the fact that Noel was much less self-aware than Felicity, I just felt it wasn't realistic. However, I think often we try to justify things the writers have done when in fact they'd given it less thought than us or they were hamstrung by constraints (for example the fact that Noel's "episode" occurred at the end of the summer and the new season started at the beginning of the next term).

As for Felicity in season four, I didn't really have a problem with self-doubt cropping up there either. Again it was the extent to which it was developed. It was as if they took Felicity back to her freshman year again and yet in "And to all a Good Night" we had that exchange between Felicity and her mother.

FELICITY'S MOM: I know that. Do you remember that first week when we came to see you here?

FELICITY: Yeah.

FELICITY'S MOM: You looked so scared. But look at you now. How did that happen?

It happened because she'd been through a lot and had survived and grown as a person and when you think about all that she'd been through in the previous three years, then what they did to her character in "Declaration of Independence" was just taking things way too far.
As for the cheating, well , that was just ridiculous.

erinw

I am loving all the comments, guys. You know me and discussion.

As for Noel and his changes in season 3, I tend to agree with Id. I don't think it was very realistic for him to marry a woman he barely knew. Though I can see what Granny was saying about how he may have needed to live a little, I just don't think Noel would've been with her that long. And I find it very interesting that he changed his mind very quickly about it. Only after talking to Felicity. I mentioned on another thread that I feel Noel had this need to be needed, that he often mistook for love. But I think Noel also was very dependent onf Felicity, even though it started out that she was dependent on him. He seemed to really respond to what she had to say about his changing behavior, and I think it was more than the fact that they had a good friendship. However, I don't think he really needed to have that conversation. I mean, the Noel we know wouldn't go off with a girl and not return to college. I really think he had a mental breakdown of sorts. And ultimately, I think it was only a ratings ploy and a writers device to mix things up a bit. And very often those things don't come naturally from the characters.

Caleon

Excellent point, Erin. And it echoes what Id said about how we're trying to justify something the writers maybe just wrote and went with, without thinking too much on it. I try to be a bit of a stickler about characters staying believably in character. When you establish a character's psyche, you should make him react on his own moral ground to something...not what would make the ratings go up. It's a hard situation, because if the "morally right" character always did what was morally right, the show would turn out boring...and we'd never get to see it in the first place.

But that's where character flaws come in. I think Noel's biggest character flaw is his need for Felicity, or addiction to her, or whatever you want to call it. I could see him lunging for some other woman because he couldn't have Fel, for a short time...but would have really made a great twist, is if he fell in love with Natalie for real, and they worked things out. Honestly, I liked Natalie better than Zoe in S4. She was a vivid, lively character. Zoe, for me, paled in comparison even though the writers gave her some common ground with Noel in the graphics business and dealing with depression bits. Natalie was off the wall, but she made me like her.

Granny

I really liked this episode. I think it had something for everyone. It starts with Noel announcing his marriage to Natalie and the gang pulling together to try and help him. I do think they were wrong with the intervention because they hadn’t really try anything else first. An intervention is something they should have tried after all else failed.

I loved the interaction between Felicity and Noel. It demonstrated that strong bond that they had from the very beginning. I also thought his explanation of why he was with Natalie was very reasonable. His relationship with Felicity fell apart and he turned to Ruby and that failed. He was looking for something different in his life. I know that we all don’t agree about the length of time that he was in this funk but basically I think the storyline was good.

I liked how they set up the whole reason for Julie leaving and how you could see her struggling to keep things together. This episode set up a lot of the future episodes. We had the beginning of Elena cheating on Tracy, Ben and the trouble with his father, and even the reason for the frat party incident with Felicity.

The interaction between Ben and his father was my favorite part of the episode. Mr. Covington reaching out to his son and then Ben wanting that connection but so afraid of being hurt once again. Scott Speedman and John Ritter had an amazing connection and you could feel the struggle that both of them were going through.

What can I say about the ending. You have Ben who has been disappointed all his life by his father and feeling deserted once again. Then Felicity with those few little words “this time you have me” that are said with such simplicity and love, you can feel him reaching out to his anchor. It was just the perfect way to end this episode.

Love, Jan

2Nickels

I have always liked this episode as well.

I guess I am one of those people who could see Noel's letting loose for a while lasting the whole summer & a bit beyond. Natalie showed him a different way of living & he wanted to get away from things. Could he have stayed that way the whole year, I doubt it but I could see why it lasted as long as it did & why he wanted to marry her. I did enjoy Noel & Felicity's talk in the hallway.

As for the intervention, most people would not go to those extremes but since Richard was the one who came up with the idea I could go along with it. Richard isn't exactly one to do things through normal processes. I just chalk it up to Richard being Richard.

I also liked the way they set up Julie leaving.

I was just thinking yesterday about what a terrific rapport Scott SPeedman & John Ritter had. Everytime I watch the scene of Ben & his dad in the restaurant it makes me feel uncomfortable because they made you feel how awkward they are with each other. Ben not trying to get his hopes up & Andrew doing his best. Even the scene when Ben shows Felicity the cd his dad got him you can feel how he is so happy about it but doesn't want to be let down again.

And the ending is so wonderful I don't think I need to add anymore to what Jan said.

erinw

I completely, utterly and totally agree. And I love how you describe Felicity as Ben's anchor. There is a song by Lifehouse called "Anchor" that always reminds me of FAB. The ending of this episode is simply perfect.

I also really loved the scenes with Scott Speedman and John Ritter. I thought they had a wonderful chemistry together and really connected. Ben struggling to give his father another chance, but not really feeling he can. I understood his lack of trust for his father, but I could also feel his desire to have his father in his life. It was like his heart said give him another chance, but his brain wouldn't let him. Powerful stuff. I really wish they had done more with him and his dad this season. I thought their relationship was very true to life and realistic.

Now, should we move onto "Hello, I Must Be Going?" I think it goes without saying that I love the rabid monkey dream scene with FAB.

ds44

I think we've already started with this discussion.
I agree with ERin, I love the rabid monkey scene. It's really very sweet. I didn't like how hostile Julie was being with Felicity about Ben's dad. It was like she was using the little information she had about the situation as something she could throw in his face. I thought it was cruel and uncalled for. Another example of her flying off the handle. I did feel very sad when she left. It was a moving tape. I just think she owed them all better than that. She just struck me as highly selfish. If she did nothing else she should have talked to SEan--who was supposed to be a good friend of hers.

erinw

I have apparently neglected this thread and for that I am sorry. So let's get back into it. I watched "Hello, I Must Be Going" the other night. Though I confess when I say that I watch an episode it mostly consists of fast forwarding to all the FAB scenes. But I did have some thoughts come to mind as I watched the other parts of the show zip by.

First, is it not heartbreaking to see what Ben's dad put him through? I can understand where a lot of Ben's anger comes from when you think about the fact that all his life his father disappointed and hurt him again and again. Why do you think Ben's dad didn't show up for the game? How come he went drinking instead? I suppose the addiction is at root, but was there something else at play here?

Second, why does Noel take Natalie back at the end? Is it purely a physical attraction that he has to her? He seemed to be almost swallowing her when they kissed. I must admit this whole thing really disturbs me because Noel seems to change so much, and I really don't understand where he is coming from. I know we said before that he may be trying to live life a bit freer than he had before, but what was his ultimate goal? Did he really think that their marriage would work?

Finally, why do you think Julie left? I know IMHO she was really not that important and I did not miss her when she left. I suppose her leaving had something to do with what she had gone through with her parents, at least that is what she said. The tape was hard to watch because I really didn't feel there was much connection left between her and the other characters. It was sort of like why should we care. But of course they did, because she had meant something to them at one point in their lives. Who do you think she could've confessed her thoughts to instead of making the tape? Genki mentioned Sean, but I wonder if she and Elena might have had a heart to heart, then we would've understood more why she left. What do you guys think?

Caleon

Erin, you're a great discussion leader. I just want to say that. Your comments made me jump right in!

I think Ben's dad just has a weakness, and it's much easier to give in to the weakness than to fight it and also face the work of repairing a damaged relationship with your son. I think that he WANTED to make things right, hence his overtures to Ben, but at the last minute he always panicked and went the easy route...avoidance.

As to Noel & Natalie, I think Noel may have decided in part that he married this woman and now he wanted to try and take what he did seriously. I think part of him cared about her and liked her enough that they might have worked out if they met in the middle. Maybe this was his attempt to make things work out. I think he was a little desperate, too, to carve some meaning into their relationship.

As for Julie, I think her importance to the storylines had diminished since the first part of S2. She added dramatic tension while FAB wrestled with the consequences of their road trip, but after that they weren't doing much with her character. Ultimately, I think it was a good thing that Amy Jo decided it was time to leave.

erinw

Wow, thanks for the compliment, Caleon. Now I am blushing. I enjoyed reading your responses. I particularly agree with your assessment of Ben's dad. His alcoholism was definitely at play, and that weakness, that means of avoiding diffuclt things, won over. It's really sad to see. I felt so bad for Ben. As for Noel, I had not thought about it that way. Perhaps he was trying to add some meaning to their relationship that seemed to be only about sex at that point, and about having fun. Noel's instinct is to make things right and he wanted to try to follow through on his decision to marry her. It's interesting, but I gotta say I still don't like it. I just don't think Noel should've been with her.

ds44

Re:　Noel.

-I thought that Noel rushed things with respect to Nathalie. I think that she may even have been good for him if he was in his right mind. I think that he essentialy cared about her and thats why they tried to make it work. But, in the end it was out of character for him. So, he was bound to step out of the insanity at some point.

Re: Ben and his Dad

I too felt bad for Ben. But, I can understand why hid dad behaved the way he did. It was the disease and his inability to cope with it that led him to make the decisions that he did. I think it was a good plot twist because it made Ben's emotional struggles make more sense.