[DanceWithLife]

Originally posted by NaiveYetChubby I think the difference between Davis and Fuller is that Davis would like to help his artists but is a bit of an idiot when it comes to promoting the AI kids properly, and Fuller just wants as much money as fast as possible.

The problem is, with the AI kids, Simon Fuller oversees EVERYTHING. Hence, whether RCA and Clive Davis tried their damnest in promoting them, final word goes to management. If RCA wants to send Kelly somewhere but Fuller orders her to stay the heck home, Fuller will win out.

Instead of having a full team behind them, each overlooking different aspects of Kelly's career, there's only one man pulling out all the ropes and it's Fuller. I think it hurts them.

Look at how well Disney is promoting Kelly right now and that's because it has absolutely nothing to do with the AI franchise. And because Disney is major. Fuller wouldn't mess with it.

[DanceWithLife]

Originally posted by NaiveYetChubby I wonder about Kelly's judgement sometimes. She DOES think Tamyra's a good songwriter. And I do think her opinion of Fuller's management skills has to have changed just a little bit since Thankful. Most of the things she's complained about have been his doing directly (WI, for example).

Kelly will never complain publicly. It's not like her. She compromises a lot of ***** with them, but she does it wisely. Brian's alluded online before that Kelly's not naive when it comes to how her management works, she simply tends to focus on the upside. But she also knows when to speak up and when to compromise, something many of the other Idols haven't learned. Kelly takes the good with the bad and in her case she chooses wisely enough so the good prevails.

As far as Tamyra goes, well, Kelly would praise any of the AI people. They are her friends. She thinks Jim is talented. She thinks Ryan is talented. When people are your friends, you tend to find the good in them and overlook the bad because you believe in them. I wouldn't expect Kelly to rag on Tamyra's songwriting even if it deserves it.

[NaiveYetChubby]

My point was that Kelly may have thanked Fuller in her liner notes and she may have meant it at the time, but that doesn't mean he's not a greedy little toad of a man and that doesn't mean she doesn't realize that by now.

In a way, she HAS complained about him indirectly. The way WI was handled? His doing, and she hated it, whether she attributed it to him in her statements or not. And her problem with WI -- focusing on the negative and ganging up on the winners instead of celebrating their talent and success -- is pretty much Fuller's way of approaching everything. So for her to have criticized how that show was handled, she's criticizing Fuller at his most basic.

Clive Davis/BMG has as little to do with 19 as Disney does. Which is why there's a dispute going on between the two right now over Fantasia and Diana.

Their AI contracts may obligate them to do certain Idol-related things, but that doesn't leave Fuller with complete control over everything they do post-Idol. He's their manager. He works for them when it comes to their recording careers. They are, however, obligated to fullfill their contracts with RCA or J Records, and Fuller can't stand in the way of that. He's trying, in some cases, but he can't, and the artists who aren't idiots will stand up for themselves instead of going along for the ride.

Plus what I said about Clive Davis has nothing to do with what Simon Fuller does or doesn't have Kelly or one of the other artists do. Davis doesn't need the artists to be in a certain place at a certain time in order to do such normal things as release a single a reasonable amount of time ahead of an album, or release correct information, etc. That's ALL Clive Davis and he's done a pretty crappy job with that so far, through no one's fault but his own. I think both he and Fuller bank on the popularity of the show, and that's stupid, but Fuller's not the one MAKING Davis stupid in that way.

From the comments Tamyra has made, I do wonder why Kelly has even remained close to her to begin with. She and Justin may have grown apart, but he's never give her the kind of backhanded "compliments" Tamyra has.

[DanceWithLife]

Originally posted by NaiveYetChubby My point was that Kelly may have thanked Fuller in her liner notes and she may have meant it at the time, but that doesn't mean he's not a greedy little toad of a man and that doesn't mean she doesn't realize that by now.

Amen to that!

I got your point. I just elaborated on my jumbled thoughts on the subject. In no way was I contradicting you.

and Fuller can't stand in the way of that. He's trying, in some cases, but he can't, and the artists who aren't idiots will stand up for themselves instead of going along for the ride.

And I'm willing to bet you he tries HARD!

When it comes to Kelly though, I think they know she stands up for what she wants. She did when they wanted her to record some cheesy songs and get her album out within 3 months as they did with Clay. She stood her ground and I think they know she meant it when she said if she wasn't happy she would just stop it all.

Of all the idols, I would say Kelly is the one who has gotten the most respect from both Fuller/19 and RCA. They're still dumb in certain aspects and sure don't take care of her 100% perfectly but at least she's not Justin to them.

Davis doesn't need the artists to be in a certain place at a certain time in order to do such normal things as release a single a reasonable amount of time ahead of an album, or release correct information, etc.

Yes and that was a MAJOR mistake when Kelly released her album. And Justin's. And Tamyra's. You have to wonder sometimes what he uses to think up his promotional strategies.

If Kelly doesn't believe what she's saying -- and, sadly, I think she does when it comes to Tamyra's songwriting, because her comments about it have been completely unsolicited -- she shouldn't be saying it, period.

She probably does. Tamyra's her good friend. To each his own. Maybe Kelly's privy to some songs we haven't been privy to. I for one cannot stand Tamyra's songwriting.

She praised Justin's album when it was releaseed, as did Justin himself, and now they're both saying it's not representative of him and he could have had better material, yada, yada, yada. You can be supportive of your own talent or of your friend's without misleading your fans into thinking you feel something is good and worthy of a listen when you don't, and without making it very easy to stick your foot in your mouth further down the line. It made Justin look like a complete ass to most people when he turned around and trashed an album he said he loved so much when it was initially released.

I agree it made Justin look like a complete ass. However, for Kelly to support him and tell people that she enjoyed the CD - not saying it was his best material because even back then I remember both saying there were songs on there that shouldn't have been - she may have just been trying to be supportive of him. The last thing you want to do is come out and say your friend/boyfriend's album sucks right as he's promoting it by your side. I'm sure some songs on it she loves but mostly she knows he could have done far better.

From the comments Tamyra has made, I do wonder why Kelly has even remained close to her to begin with. She and Justin may have grown apart, but he's never give her the kind of backhanded "compliments" Tamyra has.

So true, it's almost sad. I've always had the feeling even though it wasn't reported as much, that Kelly was closest to Christina. God knows Tamyra's never been full of praises when it came to Kelly.

Kelly's too damn nice LOL

[DanceWithLife]

you can ask Kelly questions on the MTV website and they will get answered on the website. Some of them. Got this from the KCE.

http://www.mtv.com/onair/trl/celeb_mailbox/

[DanceWithLife]

Breakaway is up on Yahoo launch. Go there and stream it.

http://launch.yahoo.com/album/defaul...lbumID=1110166

[NaiveYetChubby]

Heh. I deleted some of my comments because I thought it would come across like I was putting Kelly down, but I guess not.

Originally posted by DanceWithLife And I'm willing to bet you he tries HARD!

Enough to get sued, apparently.

Of all the idols, I would say Kelly is the one who has gotten the most respect from both Fuller/19 and RCA. They're still dumb in certain aspects and sure don't take care of her 100% perfectly but at least she's not Justin to them.

In the beginning I do think that it was because she was the first winner that they gave her any say at all. The franchise was riding on her success. Now they see her ideas are worth pursuing.

Yes and that was a MAJOR mistake when Kelly released her album. And Justin's. And Tamyra's. You have to wonder sometimes what he uses to think up his promotional strategies.

Well, Tamyra's album was released on 19 Records, and I think her non-promotion on anything but Idol-related shows is due as much to their own cheapness as it is to their ineptitude at running a record label.

The thing that gets me is that it's one thing to think the show would be enough to sell records and then learning from their mistake that that's not the case. But they didn't learn. These kids HAVE to be marketed as regular artists, not television products. (Which is why I laugh at Clive saying Fantasia's album won't be some "novelty album." The only reason the others may come across that way is because he and Simon Fuller marketed them as such.) Justin's failure was their fault, but they're happy to pass the blame onto him when even if he DID have a say in the material -- which he didn't -- he didn't get the chance to SELL it.

Justin was damned if he did, damned if he didn't, really. Kelly and Ruben, as the winners, could fight for what they wanted without being dropped. Clay was happy to just pick a bunch of songs. But if Justin hadn't given in, he wouldn't have released an album at all. They would have done to him what they did to Tamyra. And then he still would have been criticized by his detractors in the way Nikki was. The people saying Justin shouldn't have recorded songs he didn't like are the same people who say Nikki should have just released a Country album even if she didn't want to in order to have music out there and keep herself in the public eye. He couldn't win.

She probably does. Tamyra's her good friend. To each his own. Maybe Kelly's privy to some songs we haven't been privy to. I for one cannot stand Tamyra's songwriting.

I believe she does like it. She mentioned it as early as her Kilborne appearance last year, and that material is supposedly different. Maybe Tamyra's songwriting became crap once she was dumped. Who knows. I have a hard time believing that, though, because it's not the theme of the songs so much as the execution.

I agree it made Justin look like a complete ass. However, for Kelly to support him and tell people that she enjoyed the CD - not saying it was his best material because even back then I remember both saying there were songs on there that shouldn't have been - she may have just been trying to be supportive of him. The last thing you want to do is come out and say your friend/boyfriend's album sucks right as he's promoting it by your side. I'm sure some songs on it she loves but mostly she knows he could have done far better.

But the tone has changed. I can't blame Kelly for trying to put a positive spin on Justin's album, but I feel a difference between what she says about it now, and what she said about it then. But it's a lot better to flip-flop in support of your friend than it is to do so for yourself, which is something Kelly has yet to do and something I don't think she ever WILL do.

The one thing I fault Justin for is acting SO enthusastic about his album. I don't expect someone to say, "Yeah, it's crap. Don't buy it." But he could have said something Kelly has dozens of times -- that the second album is always more representative of an artist than the first -- and he would have been telling the truth without trashing his own material.

Again, it comes down to how much you say.

So true, it's almost sad. I've always had the feeling even though it wasn't reported as much, that Kelly was closest to Christina. God knows Tamyra's never been full of praises when it came to Kelly. Kelly's too damn nice LOL

Kelly talks to Tamyra the most, but then Christina is over in Europe a lot.

Of course, their relationship could be very different in private, but in the media Tamyra just doesn't come across as supportive of anyone but herself, and she's always seemed that way to me, which was why I didn't like her from the start of AI1. Maybe it's not the case on a one-on-one basis, but if you're a true friend you're going to be 100% supportive on camera as much as you are off.

Simon claimed in his book that while Ryan Starr sat behind him on Bacharach night, she was mocking Tamyra. I take his comments with a grain of salt, but even if that were true, you have to wonder why it was just Tamyra she mocked. Simon seemed to imply it was jealousy, IIRC, but she could have been jealous of any of the others still in the competition, especially Kelly, and she wasn't. So that would say something to me about Tamyra, not Ryan, if it is true.

I feel the same way about Fantasia's attitude toward Diana that I do Tamyra's attitude toward Kelly. And I could be reading things wrong, or it could be poor choice of words or not realizing how what your saying comes across, but I know I never questioned Kelly's support of someone, or Justin's, or Diana's, or Clay's, or Kimberley's, or Christina's, or Nikki's, or Jasmine's, etc. And Ruben was someone who I did not originally like as an artist, but I never questioned his support of his friends, either, so it doesn't have to do with who I like and who I don't.

[P Y R O]

Originally posted by NaiveYetChubby No, Simon Fuller. Clive Davis dumbed her ass last summer/fall. More recently, he reached for Fanty's ass.

Hate to break up the depth in conversation, but "dumbed."

[NaiveYetChubby]

..and BWAH! That's okay. We could use some balance.

[DanceWithLife]

Hehe how did we get so deep into conversational analysis?!

NaiveYetChubby, I love discussing these things with you. You can't discuss these things rationally with most fans. You are awesome.

[NaiveYetChubby]

As are you.

I love healthy discussion. I thrive on it. That's why all my brain cells are dying: I spend too much time at Idol Forums, where the general intelligence level is that of a sponge. And I don't mean a living one, I mean, like, a kitchen sponge.

It was both refreshing and shocking jumping back and forth between this thread and that board before, like when you're out in the sun all day and you walk into an air-conditioned house.

I seriously think I'm going to go blind and deaf spontaneously because my brain can't hand the stupidity of IF, but my stubborn nature just won't let me walk away from the arguments over there. I can't let idiocy go unchallenged, and I feel my circuitry will be fried because of it.

For those of you who know who I'm talking about, observe the irony: My Stalker Boy is telling ME that I follow him around "whining."

[DanceWithLife]

The intelligence levels on many boards is sometimes leaving something to be desired. That's why I enjoyed discussing things with you. It wasn't anything earth shattering but it was mature for once. And not a discussion where I had to make sure all I said was pleasant out of fear of being yelled at.

Watch those brain cells. Don't want you losing too many.

[NaiveYetChubby]

I have a feeling you can handle simple math, and that's really all I ask for at this point.

[P Y R O]

Originally posted by NaiveYetChubby I spend too much time at Idol Forums, where the general intelligence level is that of a sponge. And I don't mean a living one, I mean, like, a kitchen sponge.

You mean dumber than SpongeBob SquarePants?

I think that's what I like about FF: The apility of most posters here to hold a decent conversation where others would just squee and drool. I mean, it used to be great at the Orlando Bloom boards... we could actually discuss, with proper perspective, Orli's acting ability, or lack thereof.

On other boards they'd stone us for even criticizing how he delivers one line, with the defense that he's hot and therefore can do no wrong.

Topic: Am I the only one who, for some reason, expects Kelly to appear on the poster of The Princess Diaries 2?

[NaiveYetChubby]

Originally posted by P Y R O You mean dumber than SpongeBob SquarePants?

Let's leave SpongeBob out of this. He is my hero.

I think that's what I like about FF: The apility of most posters here to hold a decent conversation where others would just squee and drool. I mean, it used to be great at the Orlando Bloom boards... we could actually discuss, with proper perspective, Orli's acting ability, or lack thereof.

"Apility." Heh. Orlando's purdy.

Topic: Am I the only one who, for some reason, expects Kelly to appear on the poster of The Princess Diaries 2?

I don't expect her on the poster, but I always think, "Where's Kelly?" when I see a commercial for it. Then I realize there's no reason for her to be in it, and I just wonder why they're not playing "Breakaway." Then I realize it's not the title song of the soundtrack so I shouldn't expect it in the commercial, but I'm still happy because it made me think of Kelly. It's a deranged thought process, I tell you.