[Citrus and Vine]

And about Vilandra's mistakes, yeah Michael made mistakes too, but we're not talking about the mistakes of a teen like Michael here, we're talking about the mistakes of planetary royalty in a position of power and responsibility.

We don’t know what position or what age or what responsibilities Isabel as Vilandra had, when she lived on Antar.

And saying Kivar might have been a great deceiver doesn't excuse Vilandra letting him fool her.

People need to trust others, in order to survive. Sometimes, people trust the wrong people. People in all positions in life and at all ages can be fooled by others.

Kivar was the murderer, not Isabel/Vilandra. She didn't want the people she loved to be killed. She thought she was helping.


Max could have been wrong to trust Liz with the secret that he was an alien. Fortunately, things worked out. Nevertheless, Liz made mistakes that endangered Max, Michael, and Isabel. Liz failed to wash out her uniform. The uniform with the gun residue and blood on it fell into the wrong hands. Liz got Sean to help her break into school, thereby getting Sean arrested.

Liz, like the other characters, made mistakes and did wrong things.

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And no matter what excuses you make for her doing it [Isabel dreamwalking people’s dreams], violating people's minds with such casualness says a lot about her and her disrespect for other people.

Isabel didn't harm Liz or Kyle by dreamwalking them. Isabel was able to tune into their dreams, without either of them being aware of her. She didn't affect Liz or Kyle or their dreams.

I think Isabel cared a lot about other people. Isabel encouraged Max to visit Liz, when Liz’s grandmother was ill. Isabel substituted for Liz at the Crashdown, so Liz could be with her dying grandmother. Isabel volunteered and helped others. Isabel did everything she could to help rescue Max from the white room, to help rescue Tess from Whitaker, and to help rescue Laurie Dupree. Isabel cared about Grant, even though he had been possessed by the Gandarium queen. I think Isabel had a lot of respect for people.

Isabel was able to use her dreamwalking powers to show Samuel's parents how he felt. I think that benefitted both Samuel and his parents.



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Ava loved Zan.
She helped Liz, because Liz had been kind to her.


Kindness to others can make a difference.

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screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

[sum1]

Vilandra made a criminally bad choice in trusting Kivar, somebody who she'd real REASON to distrust. And she did so irresponsibly indulging her feelings for him, something she most definitely SHOULDN'T have done. And yes, we DO know she was an adut in a position of power and responsibilty on Antar. And her mistake had dire consequences for her whole species. All in all, it was a worse mistake than any of the other pod squad (except Tess) or original royal four are known to have made (or any of the pod squad's human friends, either). It's serious stuff.

Isabel violated people's minds for entertainment. That's an absolutely sickmaking thing to do and it demonstrates a total lack of respect for other people. It says a lot about her character and her attitude to other people. And it's another example of her tendency toward a worrying level of irresponsible self-indulgence. And nothing you said about her changes any of that.

You keep coming out with what I feel are utterly meaningless excuses for Isabel/Vilandra, excuses that make no difference whatsoever. As such, we're going in circles here. So there doesn't seem to be any point in continuing this discussion and I'm quitting it now.

[Citrus and Vine]

I'm sorry you feel that way about Isabel. As Vilandra, she didn't know that Kivar would kill her or the people she loved. Sometimes people love and trust the wrong person.

Isabel had a power to dreamwalk people. Humans lack such a power. Isabel fine tuned her powers, and she helped many people by being capable of dreamwalking. I admire Isabel and all the characters. I thought it was cool to see what Liz and Kyle were dreaming about!

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[Citrus and Vine]

Lonnie and Rath wanted to leave Earth, because Earth wasn't home to them.



screencap from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

[fetch]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine I'm sorry you feel that way about Isabel. As Vilandra, she didn't know that Kivar would kill her or the people she loved. Sometimes people love and trust the wrong person.

Actually, we don't know that. The story about Vilandra was changed. How would Michael know what Khivar told Vilandra if he wasn't there? If her family knew she was with Khivar, why would they duplicate her and send her to Earth?

[Citrus and Vine]

How would Michael know what Khivar told Vilandra if he wasn't there?

KIVAR: Don't make her kill ya again. It would feel redundant.
MAX: She wouldn't.
KIVAR: She did before.
MICHAEL: No, she didn't. I remember something. You led Kivar into the city with his men, but he convinced you that he wanted peace. He said he wasn't gonna kill anybody, that he was there to call a truce. And once you helped him gain access, he killed all of us. You didn't kill us, Isabel. He did. He betrayed you.



Michael/Rath would know what Isabel/Vilandra told him, and what happened after Kivar pretended to want peace. Michael/Rath would also be able to judge by Isabel/Vilandra's expressions what she had believed to be true. Michael evidently saw that Kivar was responsible for killing everyone, and that Isabel/Vilandra was innocent of any complicity in the murders. Isabel/Vilandra had believed that Kivar came in peace.

If her family knew she was with Khivar, why would they duplicate her and send her to Earth?

I think Isabel's mother loved Isabel/Vilandra, her daughter, and believed that her daughter was a good person.

Michael and Max trusted Isabel, too, even though they sometimes disagreed with her.

[fetch]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine KIVAR: Don't make her kill ya again. It would feel redundant. MAX: She wouldn't. KIVAR: She did before. MICHAEL: No, she didn't. I remember something. You led Kivar into the city with his men, but he convinced you that he wanted peace. He said he wasn't gonna kill anybody, that he was there to call a truce. And once you helped him gain access, he killed all of us. You didn't kill us, Isabel. He did. He betrayed you. Michael/Rath would know what Isabel/Vilandra told him, and what happened after Kivar pretended to want peace. Michael/Rath would also be able to judge by Isabel/Vilandra's expressions what she had believed to be true. Michael evidently saw that Kivar was responsible for killing everyone, and that Isabel/Vilandra was innocent of any complicity in the murders. Isabel/Vilandra had believed that Kivar came in peace. I think Isabel's mother loved Isabel/Vilandra, her daughter, and believed that her daughter was a good person. Michael and Max trusted Isabel, too, even though they sometimes disagreed with her.

Yeah, I saw that scene. But... Rath was Vilandra's husband. Would she honestly tell him about her conversations with the guy she was cheating on him with?
If she was cheating on Rath, she could easily also lie to him.

[Citrus and Vine]

MAX AND ISABEL'S ANTARIAN MOTHER: My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command.


Rath and Vilandra weren't married. They had been betrothed at one time, which means that they had been pledged to marry. Possibly their parents arranged for them to be betrothed, rather than either of them choosing to be together.

[AlexEvans]

Originally posted by fetch Actually, we don't know that. The story about Vilandra was changed. How would Michael know what Khivar told Vilandra if he wasn't there? If her family knew she was with Khivar, why would they duplicate her and send her to Earth?

Excellent point.

Almost all we have is the word of the Pod Squad's enemies, who were conducting psychological warfare against the group, and particularly against Isabel, throughout S2 and into S3.

The exception is Michael's 'memory.' But he has no record of remembering things before. The story he relates is absurd and implausible. Finally, he sounded as if he were making it up.

We don't know what happened on Antar. We do know that Zan1 apparently relied heavily on Larek, the man who advised Max to surrender to Kivar and bring his entire family into Kivar's power. (And Max considered it!) Zan2 drove two of his three followers to kill him. If we want to search for why things went wrong on Antar, we should start with Zan1.

[sum1]

Originally posted by AlexEvans If we want to search for why things went wrong on Antar, we should start with Zan1.

Or with Kivar, the guy with the big plans for disrupting everything, and with Vilandra, who was dumb enough to trust him.

Just don't start blaming anything in Rath1/Michael or I'll break heads.

Though I'm sure certain people would like to blame all Antar's troubles on poor Jesse Ramirez.

[Citrus and Vine]

I wouldn’t blame Antar’s woes on Jesse Ramirez, either, sum1. I really like Jesse!

Although sometimes people like to blame a single individual for why things go wrong, life is usually more complex. For example, Larek told Max that as Zan, he had tried so hard to make a better world for his people. I don’t think it’s wrong to work to improve things for people. Whitaker and Kivar blamed Isabel/Vilandra for Kivar’s rise to power. The reality is that Kivar took power. Max/Zan, Michael/Rath, Isabel/Vilandra, and Tess/Ava were all killed.

Kivar evidently was a bad leader. He was unable to bring peace to his planet or the other planets.

I believe Michael when he said he remembered what happened. I think Kivar was a liar, like Whitaker, and like Nicholas. Kivar was out for himself, just like Whitaker and Nicholas were out for themselves. In contrast, Michael helped people. So I believe Michael told the truth about Isabel/Vilandra on Antar, and I think Kivar lied about her. Even when Isabel didn't want to be with Kivar again, Kivar still had power over her, similar to what he evidently had over her in her past life. Fortunately, Jesse and Isabel's love for each other saved Isabel from Kivar!

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A few Dupe Rath pictures




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screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

[sum1]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine I wouldn’t blame Antar’s woes on Jesse Ramirez, either, sum1. I really like Jesse!

Good to meet somebody who does!

[Saturniia]

Right... back to the Dupes, what hasn't been discussed about them?

Personally, I'm curious about why Rath and Lonnie tried to kill Max after the powwow didn't go the way they wanted it to. I mean, were they trying to gain power? And if they were (in the form of the Seal or whatever it is), isn't it more likely that the power would pass to one of Max's podmates upon his death, instead of one of the Dupes?

[Citrus and Vine]

Hi Saturniia. In Season Three, the Seal went to Michael, after Max died. So you're right. The Seal didn't go to any of the Dupes. The Dupes were the fake Royals, who were sent as decoys.

At the Summit, Nicholas told Lonnie that Kivar wanted Max dead, if Max didn’t give up the Granilith.


NICHOLAS: If he takes the deal, there'll be a nice public execution to attend. If he doesn't take the deal, Kivar still wants him dead.
LONNIE: I can arrange that. What's in it for me?
NICHOLAS: Passage home.



Lonnie and Rath tried to kill Max, as Nicholas wanted, because they wanted to go to Antar. Earth wasn't home to them.


Nicholas wanted Max dead, so he could use the Granilith for himself, not for Kivar.

Kivar wanted Max to stay alive, until after a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood had been born.

Nicholas wasn’t carrying out Kivar’s wishes. Nicholas was acting for himself.




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Screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo’s Roswell

[sum1]

Nicholas was an annoying little twerp. ::beats the crap out of Nicholas and flushes him down the toilet::