[AlexEvans]

Originally posted by fetch Well, Larek said Zan had always tried to do the right thing back on Antar. Ava and Rath were just tough, in my opinion. Lonnie was the only one who seemed to actually have bad intentions. And back on Antar, Vilandra betrayed her family for Kivar. Which I always wondered about. how come no one knew about that? Or if they did know, why would they send her to Earth?

Larek also advised Max to surrender to Kivar, and we never got a good explanation as to Milton's disappearance.

There's plenty of room for discounting Larek's account of past history.

The betrayal thing was never adequately explained either. Michael said Vilandra got duped, but he sounded like he was lying, and I doubt that was an accident (Fehr is too good an actor), and his story just didn't make sense anyway.

It shows how much more we need of the dupes that in discussing what they were like, we're turning to what the past-life characters were like! Yet we hardly know more about their Antarian incarnations.

We can also compare to the original Pod Squad. But those characters changed over time. I've suggested Zan might have acted like Max did in "It's Too Late and It's Too Bad," when Max resorted to blackmail and threats of physical violence against his own sister. If Zan was like that all the time, Lonnie might well decide to kill him, and just have been waiting a chance to convince Rath to help. She tried to kill Max, too, but he tried to hit her (as Isabel) when she called him on being controlling. Now we know Max isn't always like that, but Lonnie might have decided based on her limited exposure that Max was just like Zan.

I'm saying that, with what we know, all this is possible. It isn't the only possible conclusion. A lot of people prefer to cast Zan as the good guy, and it fits what we know too. But I like examining other possible scenarios about what the dupes are like, that might fit what we learned in MTD and MITC.

[fetch]

Originally posted by AlexEvans The betrayal thing was never adequately explained either. Michael said Vilandra got duped, but he sounded like he was lying, and I doubt that was an accident (Fehr is too good an actor), and his story just didn't make sense anyway.

I didn't really get what you mean by that.

We know from their mother, and the skins, that Vilandra was Duped. Whittaker thought Isabel would act like Vilandra did on their past life.

We know from Nicholas that the two sets were different in their alien/human gene ratio. They both looked the same, meaning their human genes were taken from the same humans, right? And obviously their "essence" was from their alien past-selves.
Since the Roswell four seemed to act more "human" I think that the Dupes were more like their past selves, because the other aliens we saw didn't seem to have much regard for human life, among other things.

I don't know where I stand on the Ava/Tess mixup. On the one hand, I don't think Tess is "evil". But it makes the "Zan always seemed to be waiting for someone" thing better, because it could be Tess, and not a human counterpart (I heard that there was a deleted scene with a prophecy about Zan bringing his wife back from the dead )

[AlexEvans]

Originally posted by fetch I didn't really get what you mean by that. We know from their mother, and the skins, that Vilandra was Duped. Whittaker thought Isabel would act like Vilandra did on their past life. We know from Nicholas that the two sets were different in their alien/human gene ratio. They both looked the same, meaning their human genes were taken from the same humans, right? And obviously their "essence" was from their alien past-selves. Since the Roswell four seemed to act more "human" I think that the Dupes were more like their past selves, because the other aliens we saw didn't seem to have much regard for human life, among other things. I don't know where I stand on the Ava/Tess mixup. On the one hand, I don't think Tess is "evil". But it makes the "Zan always seemed to be waiting for someone" thing better, because it could be Tess, and not a human counterpart (I heard that there was a deleted scene with a prophecy about Zan bringing his wife back from the dead )

Bad word choice. 'Duped' as in 'fooled.' That ridiculous story about Vilandra letting in Kivar and an army to talk to her brother. From S3's "Interruptus," I think.

I dunno about the switch theory either. And I definitely didn't like Tess suddenly being evil (she was, she tortured an innocent human being to death, but I never found the character 'development' believable even in retrospect).

Personally I hate the idea of Zan waiting for Liz. The whole pre-destination thing ruins the romance of M/L. I know a lot of Dreamers don't see it that way, but I don't find pre-destination romantic, whether in a 'fate' way or in an 'arranged royal marriage' way. The later can be an interesting obstacle to overcome, of course, and I don't think it explains Rath/Lonnie.

[fetch]

Originally posted by AlexEvans Bad word choice. 'Duped' as in 'fooled.' That ridiculous story about Vilandra letting in Kivar and an army to talk to her brother. From S3's "Interruptus," I think. I dunno about the switch theory either. And I definitely didn't like Tess suddenly being evil (she was, she tortured an innocent human being to death, but I never found the character 'development' believable even in retrospect). Personally I hate the idea of Zan waiting for Liz. The whole pre-destination thing ruins the romance of M/L. I know a lot of Dreamers don't see it that way, but I don't find pre-destination romantic, whether in a 'fate' way or in an 'arranged royal marriage' way. The later can be an interesting obstacle to overcome, of course, and I don't think it explains Rath/Lonnie.

Exactly. I saw an online season 4 fic and Maria and Liz had past selves on Antar. i thought that was really dumb; the whole point is that Max and Michael choose them despite having a different destiny. That they want to make THEIR OWN choices.

I don't think that story about Vilandra really fits. I think it's something they changed, like about Tess.

[AlexEvans]

Part of what makes duplicates in general interesting is that they show what might be different, whether from different circumstances or different choices.

I've always loved 'evil twins' whether the dupes, or Vamp Willow (Buffy's Wishverse), Star Trek's Mirror Universe... there's just something evilly fascinating about the thought of being able to see what the path not taken could lead to.

[fetch]

By the way....something I didn't think about earlier, about Larek advising Max to accept Kivar's deal. The deal sounded good. Of course, we know that Kivar was going to kill Max if he accepted, but the others had no way of knowing for sure. As far as they're concerned, it's a chance for peace, which they need to take.

What makes the Dupes different, well, I do think they're more "alien", but also, they all grew up with their protector, didn't they? If we are to believe Tess was planning to follow Nasedo's deal the whole time (and it wasn't a last minute plot), that could help explain the Dupes personalities.

[delfino_la_meep]

I've got some caps for you

[delfino_la_meep]

hope thats okay

[Subject]

Originally posted by fetch What makes the Dupes different, well, I do think they're more "alien", but also, they all grew up with their protector, didn't they?

See, I don't think that they did. I mean it was never clearly addressed. I mean when Tess told Lonnie and Rath, "Our protector raised me, we were very close." I expected that Lonnie would have said something like "Yeah, we had a protector...." but it never happened.


prettylittleroswellian - Thankyou for those wonderful caps! They are always welcome.

[AlexEvans]

Originally posted by fetch By the way....something I didn't think about earlier, about Larek advising Max to accept Kivar's deal. The deal sounded good. Of course, we know that Kivar was going to kill Max if he accepted, but the others had no way of knowing for sure. As far as they're concerned, it's a chance for peace, which they need to take. What makes the Dupes different, well, I do think they're more "alien", but also, they all grew up with their protector, didn't they? If we are to believe Tess was planning to follow Nasedo's deal the whole time (and it wasn't a last minute plot), that could help explain the Dupes personalities.

Actually, it never sounded good. They were to instruct their followers to lay down their arms. They were to accept purely symbolic roles. Even if Kivar had abided by the agreement, which they had no reason to think he would do, it amounted to total surrender. Ahem. Sorry. This is my field.

The protector certainly made a huge difference. The dupes were hiding something about him. Either he was putting them up to all this, or they killed him - but even the later theory doesn't mean he didn't mess them up first.

[sum1]

Rath was cool. Brendan did a marvellous job with him. Great fun. And with a touch of Brad Pitt's Tyler Durden from Fight Club, I think.

Originally posted by AlexEvans And I definitely didn't like Tess suddenly being evil (she was, she tortured an innocent human being to death, but I never found the character 'development' believable even in retrospect).

To me, Tess seemed from the beginning (season 1) to have evil in her, so her evil behavior in season 2 didn't seem out of place. Let's not forget, she was raised by Nasedo and he was never a nice guy.

Ava seemed a better person, but she seemed squashed down by the other dupes, so I don't know if her personality was ever really given a chance to develop fully.

But considering the original (Tess/Ava's previous life) was supposed to have been the Antarian queen (and not a particularly sinister queen from the sound of it), I suspect the original personality wasn't too bad. If the Antarian queen had been like Tess, I figure it'd have been her and not Vilandra who betrayed them to Kivar.

[Nab]

Oh, I am so glad I found this thread! I love the Dupes, even if they were only around for two episodes. Though, they were also in the last two Roswell books ever written-the ones that completly closed the Roswell story. The first book, Pursuit explained that the Dupes did not awake until the summer of 1994 and that their protector, the Hollywood guy, actually only saw them once in the summer of 1999 and that he didn't plan to wake them up till they had 'matured'. I think that might be why they seemed better at their powers, they had more time for their alienness to grow and less time to be human. The second book, Turnabout is actually out of print, so I've never read it. Which sucks, because the books were supposed to be how the creators would have had the series end if they had been allowed to go one more season.

Now, about the Dupes. See, I don't think they were evil, just more alien. They weren't as human, so they didn't have the human emotions that the Pod Squad had. Plus, they had taken care of just themselves for years, so it would make sense that they would just care about staying alive and getting the best deals out of everything.

Lonnie, strangly enough, seemed like the one that was in control after she and Rath killed Zan. One would think it would be Rath, since he was the number two, but it was Lonnie. She wasn't evil, just bad and selfish. Though, I have no idea why she wanted to get home so darn much, but I guess she really missed it. And she did tell Nicolas that she had the best and most real memories.

Rath, he was just the best. Very much the 'act now, think later' type of guy. The guy was cool, but it did seem like he purely followed Lonnie's lead. At first I thought it was just for sex, after all it did seem like she was willing to sell him out, but now I'm not sure. From the book Pursuit you get the feel that Rath does love Lonnie and follows her blindly just because he loves her.

Ava, she was really the most human and I think she was the one that would have really fit in wth the Roswell crew. Sucks that we never saw her again. Like some people, I also think that Ava was supposed to be with the P.S. and that Tess was supposed to be with the Dupes. Because, Tess was the one that was all about her alien-side and getting home while Ava seemed much more human. Something, that made her an outcast among her 'family'.

It was also interseting to hear that Ava and Zan had a somewhat romantic relationship, even if Zan was 'waiting for something'. In fact it was very interesting to hear and see that the Dupes were with who their pastselves lovers while the Roswell crew all ended up in love with humans. The truth is, I actually strongly ship Ava and Zan, but only kind of like the idea of Max and Tess. While I like the ship of Lonnie and Rath, yet kind of find the idea of Michael and Is strange, only because they thought they couple be brother and sister during season one and before the show started. Freaky.

[Subject]

Originally posted by Nab Lonnie, strangly enough, seemed like the one that was in control after she and Rath killed Zan. One would think it would be Rath, since he was the number two, but it was Lonnie. She wasn't evil, just bad and selfish. Though, I have no idea why she wanted to get home so darn much, but I guess she really missed it. And she did tell Nicolas that she had the best and most real memories.

Do you think that the Royal Seal that Zan had passed on to Lonnie after his death? Or do you think that Zan never had the royal seal? From what I remember Lonnie wanted to go home because of power and Kivar. She wanted him back in her life. I don't know if he would want her though. Because Nicholas said that they were the rejects. Also Kivar went after Isable not Lonnie. It should have been Lonnie because she was the most like his original love Vilandra.

Originally posted by Nab From the book Pursuit you get the feel that Rath does love Lonnie and follows her blindly just because he loves her.

I am happy to hear that. I never read the books. However, I liked Michael/Isabel. They had a sweet lingo ever sicne they found out about their destiny. However, there were signs before that. Like Michael asking what are you wearing to Isabel in episode 2. I think that was Michael and not Max. Even if it was Max, I saw a look from Michael. The Rath and Lonnie situation just brings out these true feelings on Rath/Michael's part.

Originally posted by Nab Ava, she was really the most human and I think she was the one that would have really fit in wth the Roswell crew. Sucks that we never saw her again. Like some people, I also think that Ava was supposed to be with the P.S. and that Tess was supposed to be with the Dupes. Because, Tess was the one that was all about her alien-side and getting home while Ava seemed much more human. Something, that made her an outcast among her 'family'.

It could have been just because Tess was raised by Nasedo. Also if we believe what Ava said, Zan never let her in. Rath didn't seem like the loving type either did Lonnie but they had each other. Zan and Lonnie were brother and sister. Lonnie and Rath were lovers. Rath was also Zan's second. However, Zan according to Ava was "waiting" for someone else. That could have made her more isolated and thus more human. Of course that person Zan was waiting for could have been Tess. His real Ava.

[Roswell_Rawker]

Saying that though means that Nasedo provided Tess with the love and reassurance she needed growing up.And we all saw that Nasedo was far from the parental type.Tess was alone as well,and we saw this constantly in early s2 and throughout.She was constantly trying to "belong",where Ava to me,seemed more on the defeated/accepted side.She accepted what was going on around her where Tess seemed more of the stubborn have-to-get-my-way type.There was a HUGE discussion when the Dupes first came on air and Avas line came out of Zan waiting for "someone else".Many thought that there was a "Liz" out there for him as Max was to Liz.Because saying that Tess was meant for Zan would be saying Ava was meant for Max,and according to them both,we saw that wasn't the case.

[Subject]

Originally posted by Roswell_Rawker Saying that though means that Nasedo provided Tess with the love and reassurance she needed growing up.

I was saying that Tess was being more alien then the others might not be because she was meant to be with the Dupes. But because she was raised by Nasedo.

Originally posted by Roswell_Rawker Tess was alone as well,and we saw this constantly in early s2 and throughout.She was constantly trying to "belong"

Yes, she was trying to belong. She was the only one of the Four to have been "alone" all of her life then.

Originally posted by Roswell_Rawker where Ava to me,seemed more on the defeated/accepted side.She accepted what was going on around her

Ava seemed that way because she was with the others her entire life. The other dupes were her people. She wasn't seperated like Tess was with Nasedo.

Originally posted by Roswell_Rawker Many thought that there was a "Liz" out there for him as Max was to Liz.

Too say that would mean that Liz was someone how destined to be part of their lives. I don't think she was it was an accident. Meaning that Max saving her was. Besides, if there was a Liz out there for Zan, then it would just cheapin the relationship of Max/Liz in my eyes.

Originally posted by Roswell_Rawker Because saying that Tess was meant for Zan would be saying Ava was meant for Max,and according to them both,we saw that wasn't the case.

I'm not following you here. Who is this "both"?

How do we know that Ava was not meant for Zan? Just because they were not together when the show ended does not mean that they were not meant to be. I mean you can mean to do something and then you don't do it. The same rules can be applied here.