Cati

I never heard anything like that until I responded to those quotes you brought over. Can you ask the B/Aer you were talking to, to provide a source? I'm almost certain the quote is made up. I read Buffy-related news every day and that quote has never shown up in any article.

However, even if Buffy does love Angel, it's obviously not a deep love. Have a look at our reasons list in the first post.

Dazzling

All I know about Jane Espenson is that she is a supporter of Spuffy.

She said: "Some would say that Angel and Buffy shared a more idealised 1st love whereas Spike and Buffy shared a more messy adult love that is more realistic.. I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between the two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had a romantic love. And Spike and Buffy have something so much more complicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting to me.. My number 1 priority in season 7 was the Buffy and Spike love story. I think that is just a gorgeous story."

Jane Also said at a convention a few months back that when a fan told her what Joss said about Buffy loving Spike Jane said : "I always knew Buffy loved Spike." Or something to that effect.

So while I believe Jane may have said it's canon that Buffy loved Angel Jane clearly states that it's canon that Buffy loves Spike too. From Jane's earlier statement though it's also clear that she views Buffy and Angel's love story as an idealized 1st love.. and Buffy and Spike had the passionate and mature love story which she preferred over Bangel.

You can give that B/A fan the direct quote from Jane and tell her about how Jane agreed with Joss's commentary in Chosen and said clearly "She always knew that Buffy loved Spike."

Cati

Personally I'm not going to believe that Jane Espenson quote until I see it from a reliable source.

But say the B/Aers come up with a credible source (which I don't expect ), the quote doesn't state that Buffy loves Angel romantically so I'm not going to get upset at Jane.

Cati

I'm going to assert that Buffy doesn't even love Angel as a dear friend. Canon has shown us that she never thinks about him. It's patently absurb to say that she loves Angel when she didn't remember to call him after Willow brought her back and when she didn't notice that he went missing for the whole summer. Angel is no more than a tool to her, she only remembers him when she's arguing with Xander about killing Anya.

sum1

What matters is what's on the screen, not what somebody claims is "canon". If you look close at what's on the screen, Buffy was in love with the romance she had with Angel and with her idealized fantasy of him, not with the guy himself (and she just convinced herself she was in love with him). In effect, she used him to fuel her romantic fantasies, used him as somebody to project her fantasies onto and to have a big "Romance" with. It wasn't real love, because it wasn't really him she was in love with. And whatever anybody claims is "canon", you can see from the shows that she's clearly over him by now, even if she's still got some lingering leftover feelings for him. That's the reality, no matter what's claimed as "canon".

sum1

Angel goes to work:

Employee: There's a guy outside, wants to talk with you. He looks like a mobster.
Boss: What's he call himself?
Employee: Says his name's Angel.
Boss: What's he, Puerto-Rican or something?
Employee: No, he says he's called that because he's got the face of an Angel.
Boss: He looks like an Angel?
Employee: Nope.
Boss: Then why...?
Employee: Beats me. I asked him if he'd looked in the mirror anytime recently. He said he hadn't.
Boss: I guess that explains it. He say anything else?
Employee: Yeah, he kept going on about how he's a soulful champion and how he helps himself to the helpless, or something like that.
Boss: Sounds like a crackpot.
Employee: Didn't you ask for a guy to be sent around to help you find your daughter? Wasn't there something about him being a guy who does... something with the helpless?
Boss: Yeah! You're right, send him in.
(Angel is sent in.)
Boss: Mr. Angel, I presume? Pleased to meet you. I'm the guy who wants to employ your services.
Angel: I'm Angel, I've got a soul and I'm depressed about it.
Boss (surprised): Depressed?
Angel: Yeah, and about my One True Love.
Boss (bewildered): What about your one true love?
Angel: I can't figure out which of my One True Loves is my One True Love and that's depressing. And I've forgotten the name of one of them. Cord-something-or-other. But I'm really in love with her. And with the Slayer one -I can't remember the color of her eyes, but I think I can remember her name. And with the one who-
Boss: Mr. Angel-
Angel: I'm depressed.
Employee: Yeah, that would explain the weight thing. When I get depressed, I eat too much. I've been trying Atkins diet and-
Angel: I've been brooding about it.
Employee: Atkins diet?
Angel: Being depressed.
Boss: Mr. Angel, I'm very sorry to hear you're not feeling well, but I called you here to help me find my daughter.
Angel: I'm feeling very depressed.
Boss: My daughter, Mr. Angel. She's fifteen and I think demons have run off with her and-
Angel (brightening up): Fifteen? I like fifteen year old girls. Is she a cheerleader? Does she suck lollipops?
Boss (stiffly): I'm not sure I get your meaning.
Employee: I think he's talking jailbait.
Angel (confused): What's "jailbait"?

goldenpuppies at heart

thats great, sum1 !

Cloudburst2000

I believe it was canon in the first couple seasons that Buffy was 'in love' with Angel. It is canon that Buffy loves Angel in later seasons too...she just isn't 'in love' with Angel anymore. You can love someone without being 'in love' with them. So yes, it is canon that Buffy's loves Angel, just not the love that Bangelers want it to be Espenson never said it was canon that Buffy is 'in love' with Angel, just that it's canon she loves Angel. Love and 'in love' are not necessarily the same things...thank gawd

MarstersAngel

I agree.

And Cati the person who said it was canon that Buffy loves Angel is love4ba and she mentions it on SMGBOARD.com in the topic angel and buffy NOT forever? in the Spoilers forum. I asked her for a link and she said she would get it but she never posted it. She's probably lying.

Cati

B/A still suck.

Dazzling

I hope you reply back to her and write in the quotes from Jane that I put in my above post. Tell her that this is what Jane said exactly and it's far from "B/A are in love forever" canon. But then again you could probably write a whole book of reasons why this is not true and even use the writers words to back it up and it still wouldn't penetrate the denial that some live in.

Also another wonderful quote from Jeffery Bell when describing the B/A scene in Chosen:

"My thoughts are that Angel is an adult. I think he and Buffy came to a place and you get a sense of this near the end of Buffy where they were thinking "We love eachother but the way things are now it just ain't going to work out. We're adults so lets move ahead with out lives."

This also is a far way off from "B/A are still in love and and they will be together". In fact Jeffery Bell is stating that Angel and Buffy can't be together and that was confirmed in Buffy saying "Years if ever." She didn't have much hope for it because I think she is becoming a mature woman who knows that what Angel and her shared doesn't fit in her life anymore and it doesn't go along with who she is now. As much as I hate Bangel I won't deny that they did love eachother and I won't deny that I think they still love the memory of what they had. But I beleive that you have to know someone to be in love with them and Buffy and Angel just do not know eachother or eachother's lives anymore.

MarstersAngel

I would show her the quotes from Jane but there's no way she's gonna listen. I was debating with her back and forth over Spuffy and Bangel a few days ago and she was actually trying to force her opinion on me and it sure isn't gonna work.

I agree with you're post. And I love Jeffrey Bell's thoughts on B/A.

Dazzling

B/A still make me want to

Don't you just love those certain Bangel fans that make a point to show their so-called moral superiority. Saying how "disgusting" and wrong it is to support Spuffy. And yet they support a couple where the 200+ year old vampire fell 'in love' with a young girl of 15 sucking on lollipop. And then later show him having sex with her while she was still under age. They are the same people who claim that Spike is too morally ambigous to be with Buffy and yet they forget that their chosen man for Buffy was the same guy who left two vampires to kill many people and then made the decision to "Mind rape" his friends (As Cordy said) and erase their memories. I love those double standards don't you?

sum1

Dead right! B/A is the sick ship.

Spuffy was two consenting adults, not so with B/A. Spuffy had plenty wrong in it, but its wrongs are portrayed as wrongs, while B/A's are prettied up and treated like they're ok -which is really sick.

And Angel's the guy who, with a soul, tried to murder one of his best friends when the guy was helpless in a hospital bed, plus murdered a heroic warrior for the side of good (Drogyn) when the guy was helpless, plus had an ally who he'd made a deal with (Lindsey) betrayed and murdered. And Spike without a soul was an evil creature striving to be good, while Angel without a soul was just plain as vile as they come.

Jaime Bee

Hey Guys!

Bangel Sucks! lol

Sum1 Great post!