RM01

Hi everyone! I am a first time watcher of Dawson's Creek and just finished the show. I just posted on the DJo thread but didn't realise there was a specific anti PJo thread, how great is this idea! I will post some of the anti PJo parts of my post here along with some other specific PJo stuff.

Ok here goes my rant.

WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. EF. IS. THIS. COUPLE.

Like I am genuinely baffled as to how they are so popular. Watching the show with a completely fresh view without any idea of what the fandoms are and then doing some research online, I was just shocked that majority preferred them.

The moment PJo happened and the love triangle was officially introduced, it changed the whole tone of the show for me and completely ruined the build up of what was once a solid and loyal friendship between Dawson and Pacey. If the writers really wanted Joey to have another option, I wish they chose anyone else besides Dawson's best friend. If the writers never had any intention of keeping Dawson and Pacey as best friends then their friendship should've been written differently from the start because to me it came across as this awesome brotherly bond. I liked Pacey (and I continued to like all non-Joey related stuff about him) but after he actively pursued a relationship with Joey KNOWING that it was his best friend's soulmate, I just could not see him in the same way from then on. Joey wasn't just a random crush for Dawson. She was it. She was the one. She was the girl for him. Pacey knew that and he knew it very well. He's a nice guy overall, but this thing that he did is unforgiveable in my books. And yes of course you can argue that he couldn't control his feelings etc but to me, a friend's loyalty is not something negotiable.

I perhaps would've felt entirely different about PJo if Pacey had done what he did the first time around in season 1 and approached Dawson first. That to me, although still difficult to swallow, demonstrated his loyalty and I really respected him for that. However, it all came tumbling down in season 3 when he chose to instead, sneak around with her. And she is just as much at fault for this. It's funny that he did the more mature thing when he was younger…

PJo started off sneaky and therefore felt tainted the whole time whilst watching them. I was actually quite disgusted with their behaviour when they first started off. Especially when they were making out in the shed whilst Dawson was waiting for them to pop the champagne to celebrate the new boat of his best friend who was currently making out with the love of his life. LOL at this show seriously. And poor Dawson, he loved Joey so much that in spite of the fact that she was with his best friend, he still wanted to end up with her. Not many guys would think the same in a real life situation.

Overall, I think it was a terrible decision on the writers part to put PJo together. I wish the triangle never happened because not only did it ruin a well written friendship between two 'brothers' as Pacey put it, it also completely destroyed the group dynamic between the 3. Which leads me to my next point.

I personally find it so unrealistic for the show to end on a note where all 3 are friends and happy with each other. Sorry but when a man's best friend is the one that end's up with said man's greatest love, how on earth would he be content with that situation?

And how are we to believe that they were meant for each other when close to the last few episodes Joey literally tells Pacey that being with him doesn't feel right even if everything is perfect and saying that it's not going anywhere. You could argue that she was in denial about her feelings but those actions do not reflect someone in denial but rather someone who is actively and directly rejecting someone not to mention going to another guy (Eddie) STRAIGHT AFTER the aforementioned conversation.

Regarding the PJo relationship itself, I just don't see how it fits. I feel sorry for Pacey in that he would do anything for Joey but when that anything has an impact on his male ego, he doesn't feel good about himself which I get. So he's sort of in a checkmate position and therefore I think the healthiest thing for him was to bow out. Also, in the finale there is no indication that they sorted out their prior problems. He had that inferiority complex (which I could understand) and let's say he did get over it, nothing changes the fact that he left everything in Capeside to live out JOEY'S dream in New York in HER apartment. You can just already see this spiralling. Also didn't Pacey give some big speech about not wanting to rely his happiness and success on someone else yet he uprooted his whole life to go live with her in New York??? And on Joey's part, there's all the Dawson stuff which leads me to my next point.

I think what the most detrimental part of their relationship is, is that to me, it seems that Pacey loves her more than she loves him and I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Joey still loves Dawson. And not just as a friend, and we can see that because they still had this little romantic spark between them in the later episodes even when they were strictly friends. Whilst there's a part of her heart that loves Pacey, there's still a part in there that is only for Dawson and no other man can conquer that part of her heart. Not Pacey, not Eddie, not anyone. No matter how hard she tries to give that part to someone else it will forever remain as Dawson's. What I'm saying is, I don't think she could ever fully love any man, not just Pacey, because a part of her love was already given to and reserved for Dawson. And I think she eventually came to terms with that when she told him "you and me always". I don't think she would've dared to admit that to Pacey though, not if she didn't want his insecurities to jump off the scale.

Given the such strong and deep connection between Dawson and Joey, any man that Joey dates would have to deal with the fact that Joey has a best friend that is a male whom she has known since she was born, whom she has dated a few times, whom she has slept with, and whom she still has this sexual tension with (am I the only one that got this vibe from the last few episodes?). I don't know about you but I would be extremely uncomfortable if a partner had this kind of person in their life and very closely in their life I might add. I find it hard to believe that any guy would stick around a long time knowing that was Joey's situation (it's essentially a condition to accept in order to be with her because she was not giving up Dawson's friendship for anyone). I feel like their insecurities would go into overdrive and rightfully so. We already got an example of that with Pacey and his Dawson insecurities throughout the PJo times and I get the feeling that these insecurities of Pacey were not going away post finale.

And that's why I don't think PJo would've lasted a long time. I can already see the Dawson insecurities coming to surface again in a situation such as this: the minute Joey and Pacey have a fight, you can bet your sweet a** that Joey would go straight to Dawson to vent because he's her best friend and it would make sense to go to him because everyone goes to their best friends to vent about their problems. Just in this case, it just so happens to be Dawson, the soulmate, and Pacey would understandably become insecure again and Joey would reassure him that nothing's going on and then they fight again and the same cycle is repeated again and again until Pacey finally snaps and either breaks up with her because he can't get over the insecurity or she breaks up with him because she's fed up with his paranoia. So I think the Dawson insecurity would eventually lead to their demise.

Overall, I just don't buy the ending AT ALL. Like of all the TV show finales that I've watched, this one made the least sense and just felt like a massive tease given what was presented to the audience for 6 seasons. It just didn't make any sense.

atwoodsmariano

hi um I think you need to edit your post and replace those Ds with Ps

I agree season 1 he actually respected Dawson and his friendship with both him and Joey

I know Pacey attempted to tell Dawson during their camping trip but it ended up not happening after Buzz and his friends showed up

my thoughts reading your thoughts

RM01

Haha thank you all fixed now!

Yes my thoughts were the same when I came across this thread!! I thought I was the only one that despised them since I hear so much about how great they are ugh

atwoodsmariano

digging up my old post from 2 and a half years ago because I do still feel the same way

RM01

Yeah I agree. I actually quite enjoyed their banter when it was platonic.

semmafightsellie

Hello and welcome here.

TL22

This is a beautifully written and very accurate summary of the triangle. I would just add one thing. Pacey had already met the love of his life, Andie. Andie made Pacey a better man. Joey tore him down and made him feel he would never be good enough.

semmafightsellie

yes. PJ is ok but they not my fave.

SunnyOiler35

Don't know if this will work or not . But I found this on a FB group that I am a part of. Someone posted this about Pacey and Joey

But if you read the description of that, doesn't it seem overly possessive and threatening? well maybe not threatening but definitely forceful?

atwoodsmariano

I can see it as being somewhat possessive

think this is why I prefer cheek kisses tbh

Ropetuned

I get everyone likes different things but I never understood it what was there with these two

TL22

I know even when P/J were together, all they did was fight like cats and dogs. Usually over Dawson and the rest of time; or how Pacey did not meet her expectations.

If Pacey was with Andie season three his grades would not have slipped, plus his life would have less aggravation.

atwoodsmariano

I could understand the appeal in the season 1 Double Date episode

and a bit in season 3

but after that for me nada (season 4 definitely not)

why not just keep them friends writers?

yeah Andie was better for him

Crystal Clear

I haven't been here in a long time and I suddenly felt the need to ramble, so bear with me.
Okay, so the thing I find most entertaining about the P/J ship is the amount of people who say "they were never happier than when they were together" Um, did we watch completely different shows?

Pacey was MISERABLE in season 4. In fact, he was miserable in season 3 too when he thought his feelings for Joey would never be returned but even when he got the girl, he acted constantly paranoid and fearful every time that Joey would spend any amount of time with Dawson. The entire relationship was a constant effort for him, and Joey's job was to constantly reassure him "it's you I love now, not Dawson." I don't see how the public found this entertaining? Unless they secretly hated Pacey and wanted him to suffer. They made him look dumb enough to think that a romantic summer on a boat with Joey would be the answer to all their problems and everything would be right as rain when they return -- at the same time, he is ashamed of himself and hiding the truth from her. He is failing in school, and he doesn't feel comfortable telling his girlfriend this... The same person who he has grown up with. The fact that he believes she would pity or be ashamed of him doesn't exactly put a good spin on their relationship.

Then of course there's always Promicide. The episode where shippers tell us "Pacey was out of character when he said those nasty things" but he really, truly wasn't. He was voicing exactly what he had wanted to say for months.

Oh and Four Stories of course. Joey has just lost her virginity to Pacey and all he can basically say is, "on a scale of 1-10, how was I? Did you orgasm? Why won't you touch me anymore?" I honestly found this line of questioning rather perverse, and you can see that Joey is very uncomfortable. So much so that she flat-out lies to Dawson and pretends she and Pacey did not sleep together. Let's be real - if Joey had true, adult feelings for Pacey and was completely over Dawson by this point, then she wouldn't feel the need to lie. She would want Dawson to know the truth, so that he could FINALLY move on. But nope, the truth is that Joey wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She claims to have moved on with Pacey, yet she instantly shows jealousy when seeing Dawson kiss Gretchen and seems determined to torment Dawson by refusing to give him the space he deserves. I think there's a side of Joey that really enjoyed having Dawson and Pacey's worlds both revolve around her.

Furthermore, there's the whole soulmate connection between Dawson and Joey that Pacey could never accept. He makes it clear in season 3 when they're doing karaoke - he can't compete with the history of D/J. He can't handle not being loved like she loves Dawson. So I really don't get why he spent so much time and effort into naming his boat after her, pining for her, and practically begging her to kiss him back in the first place if he knows already that he's never going to be number one in her heart.

Is it not incredibly strange that the supposed "most popular" couple in Dawson's Creek is part of a trio where their best friend is both her ex-lover and her all-time soulmate? Soulmates are forever. They also don't just apply to friendships; remember Chandler and Janice in Friends? Their relationship was only ever 3 things: 1) lovers, 2) one night stands 3) nothing at all. They were never friends. So the argument put forward in the series finale that soulmates = friendship only is a total LIE.

That said, I do recall that season 4 was originally supposed to be the wrap-up season and it explains a lot about how P/J had completely broken down by the Senior Prom. That was the writers letting us know that things were going to come full-circle and she would find her way back to Dawson *cough* Coda *cough* ... We even have Andie return in time to congratulate Pacey on his graduation approval. There is a distinct return to the past, and that is NOT a coincidence. It is solid proof that even the writers recognized the longing in Pacey and Joey for things to be as they used to be.

atwoodsmariano