HarshBench

Well, it's possible that after all the criticism S3 received really got to him and he doesn't want to deal with it anymore. Or maybe the producers told him he needs more writers to keep the quality up, and he doesn't want to collaborate.

Beebbop

And another cast member leaves.

'Downton Abbey': O'Brien star Siobhan Finneran quits show - Downton Abbey News - TV - Digital Spy

Why do all the interesting characters go (bar Matthew because he went soppy)? I know O'Brien was an evil character but "by eck" she was a good 'un!

Patano

So, the article back in March was 100% accurate. JF lost three members of the main cast.

You really didn't have to be a seer to predict that some of the actors would not want to tie themselves for more years, especially the younger ones like Dan and Jess. And on a show that is so strongly character based as Downton, every departure is very significant.

At least O'Brien won't be killed off. And there will be no baby of doom.

I remember that I called DA a sinking ship some time ago. Well, the members of the crew continue to evacuate, but now it also seems that the captain does not intend to go down with this ship, but to evacuate himself too

HarshBench

Like that Italian cruise ship captain. LOL.

I just want to stay I love how the fiercest Mary stans tell themselves that Jess is a mediocre actress to console themselves over the fact she was (a) the one getting offers tempting enough to make her leave and (b) the one who was always called "the hot one" or "the hottest one." And how they are convinced Michelle will get an Emmy for her Black Widow storyline. I predict Fellowes will give her PPD for one or two episodes and then move on.

It's an Emmy-bait storyline, that's for sure. And it might work, but it won't change the writing on the wall. IF she gets a nom, her chances of a win will be diminished a ton by the fact that the ship is sinking. They appreciate a show going out with dignity after a good run, not one that hangs on for dear life while bailing out water and trying desperate moves.

PPD is a very real and serious thing. But I would never trust this show to do it justice, not even for Mary. He won't spend more than two episodes on it, maybe three. And if he does viewers will get bored, because that's not why they tune in to this.

Patano

I sometimes think that hardcore Mary stans live in a different world than the rest of the fandom. It's funny how they try to convince the apathetic, jaded and embittered rest of the fandom that S4 is going to be "the bestest ever". And they're a source of division in M/M fandom.

And they of course try to portray Michelle as this perfect person, who can at the same time have a splendind career in Hollywood and a huge role on DA. Perhaps they think that she uses a time turner or something?

HarshBench

I have nothing at all against Michelle. I think she's a good actress and seems like a nice person. I bet she would be embarrassed at how obnoxious her fans are, and how they spew vile at Dan and denigrate the other actors, or bang on about the show is ALL about her. She is an actress doing her job, and I am sure she has a ton of respect for all the other actors on the show and knows she could not do it without them.

I feel especially protective of Jessica, though, because there is no excuse for anyone calling her "mediocre" and saying they are are glad the show is getting hot guys in her place. Given how her character exited, that is the height of insensitivity. Hate on Dan if you must, if only because of how he left the show. But Jessica (a) left with class and (b) left because, no matter what they might tell themselves, she was the hottest property on that show. The youngest, the most beautiful (there is no accounting for taste, but an objective survey of male and female subjects would no doubt confirm this), and the one with the most raw magnetism. Michelle might be more experienced, but Jessica has an extra seven years to grow.

I think all of them will have good careers. You never know what might happen. But their idolatrous worship of her is bizarre and pathetic. Maybe she is the show's heroine, but she is a deeply flawed one, maybe even an Anti-Heroine.

confessor_meggy

Well, I admit that the only thing I found painful of the CS (without even seeing it) was Isobel waving Matthew goodbye, poor Isobel, all her favourite, Syb-Tom-Matthew are gone now.

That sounds quite bad for JF. I remember many people saying O'brien were their favourite in the show and some would stop watching if she was killed (let's wait and see again)

Hey! (ok true story)

Patano

I suppose that O'Brien won't be killed off though, just sacked? I doubt that there will be any kill-offs in the near future... O'Brien has her group of fans, but I won't be surprised if they're are happy with her departure... I mean, we've all seen what JF does with his characters nowadays. It may be a relief for O'Brien fans that she'll soon be free from this man's clutches.

The next person to leave seems to be JF, though. It just makes me mad that he's "upset" because of all S3 criticism. What about us? We are the ones who've been crying our eyes out

I agree, Meggy, when it comes to Matthew's death, I feel most sorry for Isobel...

BTW, the MD stans vs DS stans war is ridiculous. I can bet that MD and DS are still good friends. And this hate on Dan is simply getting sick. Comparing his wife unfavourably to MD? Criticizing his new projects? Really, people...

Whatever, the DA fandom is dead. There are still fanbases alive like S/T fanbase or Mary fanbase, but DA fandom as a whole seems to be dead...

confessor_meggy

that's just what makes me angry....I mean, I had a lot of fandom all other the years and it just makes me sad to see this fandom die one piece after another. I have a lot of fandom on my curricul but neer was I disappointed by it as it was was with SW fanbase and this one if it dies out...I even admit I love Twilight fanbase because it kept strong over the yearsXD

Patano

DA fandom may be dead, but S/T fanbase does VERY well when you take into account the circumstances that we're in IMO. We still spread the love for our couple, write fics (people write as many fics as before, there's been no decrease) etc.

Frankly, I have to admit that I do no longer see myself as part of DA fandom... I'm no longer DA fan, only S/T fan.

M/M fanbase seems to have more difficulties with staying together ... They're now divided into Mary and Matthew fans and hardcore Mary fans do not seem to care much about what happened to Matthew actually... and some people also abandoned their ship completely.

I must say that I'm in awe with this fanbase and very glad to be part of it. I know that I'd feel even worse than I do if I were part of M/M fanbase.

confessor_meggy

Yeah when I said die out I meant DA fandom, not S/T specifically

phillips32

I say let the poor Mary fans have their moment, as well as their mistaken (and obviously jealousy-based) opinion of JBF’s abilities because S4 likely WILL be the “bestest ever” for them, as good as its ever going to get.

No question their girl is the be-all and end-all of the show, more so with each passing series. But its also likely DA will be the peak of MD’s acting career. Not so for JBF, who is totally on the launch pad with “the bestest” yet to come.

Also, their opinion of JBF’s acting counts for almost nothing, especially when compared to those who know so much more..

For example, here’s Dame Maggie’s take, when ask about JBF and DS leaving:
Source:The Dowager Actress - WSJ.com

Also, according to EM, Maggie told the cast to dry their tears over JBF’s departure since she was “going off to be a movie star”. MS knows ‘em when she sees ‘em, and seems as truthful and frank as the Dowager. Wouldn’t have said it if she didn’t mean it. So I’ll defer to MS and her 5 decades or so of acting experience over the Mary fans’ whacked, worshipful comparisons any day.

Even more important, the industry has cast the deciding vote in this debate through the roles they’ve offered JBF as opposed to what has not been offered to MD. Sort of hard to argue with that.

Mary’s followers should be careful what they wish for because IMO as Mary takes up more and more of the DA oxygen, MD comes closer and closer to being dangerously typecast as the cold, bitchy costume drama dame. Even her look seems to evolve to be sharper, more angular; her unnaturally pale skin emphasizing the character’s inner iciness. Personally, I’m buying her fleeting seconds of vulnerability less and less so she’s becoming one-dimensional for me, and that’s character and actress.

Like Harshbench, I have nothing against MD and think she does a good job with what she is given. I think she will continue to get jobs after DA, just not the kind of major and varied roles JBF is getting. So far, MD hasn’t shown that kind of range

I’ve always said someone very savvy is advising JBF. Just in the three years or so she’s been working she has played everything from 13th century heroine to modern bad girl with a heart of gold and all stops inbetween. I think this versatility has helped make her one of Hollywood’s up and comers.

Patano

I've posted a new chapter of "All Those Christmases" - All Those Christmases Chapter 6: Dancing in the Snow, a downton abbey fanfic | FanFiction

I agree with the points that you mentioned, phillips.

DA is clearly going to be even more Mary-centric than before - a lot of narratives got derailed and what is happening on this show now is very far from what JF originally planned for it, so he tries to at least console himself with what he likes writing about most, that is Mary's storyline. But then the producers say that Matt's death is "an opportunity" for Mary because she can be "reset". People followed the show for 3 years during which Mary received a lot of character development (even though with her character it's always a rollercoaster), and now they speak about a "reset"...

HarshBench

I agree with a lot of this. To me, Mary is looking worse every year. Michelle is a beautiful woman, but as Mary she is beginning to look harsh and severe, with her white skin and black helmet of hair. Even in her virginal wedding dress she didn't have the glow of a bride.

And I think in S4 her "difficult" relationship with her baby will make her less sympathetic. Doubtless the story makes sense: PPD is no joke and given the situation is more understandable. Her stans will defend her every action. But after three years of hot-and-cold from her, especially her S3 bitchy and entitled behavior, the average viewer might be weary of it. Doubtless in the end she will soften and regain general sympathy, but the formula has worn thin and I do believe all but the rabid Mary stans will not care all that much. Enough to say "great performance" but not enough to get all that invested.

And I think you are right: the more she consumes the plot the more she will be attached to that role in everyone's memory. And hey, If DA is the height of her success and she just coasts after this, that's okay. It's still a damned good career.

I mean, Tom Branson lost his wife in a worse way (IMO) and we never saw him struggle at all with loving his child. If anything he came across as a positively ideal and totally sympathetic father figure. And he was alone, with little support and no safety net, whereas Mary will have a houseful of people at her beck and call, totally focused on her happiness as always.

And All Hail Maggie Smith for saying what she did about Jessica. Yes, Hollywood is for her. She might not become a big star, but she will have a career and be able to write her ticket to a larger degree than Michelle. Youth, beauty and the fact of not being susceptible to type-casting all help with that. And she can light up a room in a way Michelle can't. She might choose to do a few films and then quit and raise a family, but her options are amazing.

Michelle being typecast as a Mary type is not just about her becoming eternally associated with DA, much as Susan Lucci is eternally associated with All My Children. it is because physically, she is the type to play Ice Maiden. Skinny, pale, small-featured and with a far less open and expressive face than someone like Jessica. She lacks sensuality, and that counts for a lot in Hollywood today.

I am just curious, though. I know which roles Jessica has won as well as the ones for which she has been seriously considered (damn that bland Emily Van Camp for getting the Captain America role, even if I never planned to see that movie unless Jessica was in it). But what do we know about which roles Michelle has or has not gotten? I know she filmed the paint-by-numbers Liam Neeson action film about an air marshall (when did HE become so one-note?). But do we know what other offers she had? Whether they offered enough money to lure her away from DA? (I take it she is making about $1.5 or $2 million for this season, which doesn't seem like much considering the success of the show.) Was it a case of not getting good enough offers to lure her away, or of just making a judgment call to stick with it for two more years?

I remember reading one of those rabid Mary stans saying she was smart to stick with her small agency instead of going with the big one Jessica and Dan joined, because Dan and Jess would not be their firm's "top priorities" whereas Michelle was the biggest actress at her agency. Then someone butted in and said: "Um, NO, their biggest actress is Emma Stone." LOL! As if Michelle could be a higher priority to any agency than Emma Stone!

HarshBench

This is why I hope to God Fellowes leaves and lets others take over the final season, which will probably be S5. Other writers can do justice to the whole ensemble and show, let it breathe, and actually try to give viewers a good, balanced and intelligent show instead of just being self-indulgent and myopic. I could get on board with S5 at least being a good and respectful send-off to the characters that have gotten shafted over the past two seasons.