aggiemom09121416

OMG, you made me laugh so hard. LOLOLOL



When he asked if she was saying he was a bad lover, I wanted her to say: Well, now that you mention it, you're hung like a hamster. I wonder if he has a hang-up about his....manhood.[/QUOTE]

Sunshinebright

Ok. I thought about how to approach talking about this episode. Again nothing happened and I'm beginning to accept that nothing will happen. It seems like Fellowes has sloooooooooooowed things down to almost crawling. A lot of the scenes seem to be saying the same thing over and over again and some have just stood still. How many times will Robert wonder aloud why Bricker is asking Cora's opinions and how many times will she respond the same way 'is this shocking'? Why get 2 scenes of Edith following the Drewes from a distance? Enough was already said in the previous episode by Drewe, his wife and by Edith's reaction. This plot while fascinating has stood still. Carson shaming Molesley AGAIN has been done too many times and the screen times given to this should have been given to Tony and Mary's scene. That scene NEEDED to be longer than it was. It was a confrontation, although I feel that if Fellowes meant it to be a pivotal one, more time should have been given to them to fully express to the audience what really is going on here.
I also find it almost contrived how Mary can't seem to articulate clearly what her reasons are for changing her mind towards Tony. I mean you and I can speculate and probably guess correctly why she's acting the way she is but again, in three different scenes ( with Tom, with Blake and now with Tony) she was asked clearly and we still do not know why this dynamic changed. Are her reasons important or not? Is there any significance to this or not?

Bunting and Grantham - again one more dinner eruption seen too many times except that this time Robert ordered her out of the house in a deviation from their previous confrontations. But a reaction most of us would have predicted.
Violet and Kuragin - why? WHY?? WHO CARES?????

Isobel and Merton - the proposal while well acted and delivered is a turn of events we all could have predicted and hardly a plot that has us all wondering what will happen next. Nothing to it. She either accepts or declines. That's it. End of story.

Shrimpie - He basically showed up to announce he was getting a divorce. I don't know how many ways I can say WHO CARES???!!!
I could go on and on but since about 90% of this episode was just too fluffy to me, I will move my other comments to the ''Charles'' thread whose scenes with Mary are the only ones worth watching for me in this episode. So if you're interested go there to read further.

northboundtrain

I think we're meant to understand that she just doesn't find Tony's mind all that interesting -- that she has realized that Charles was right, that she's cleverer than Tony is.

The problem is that that's a difficult thing to come out and say to any of these three men. If she'd told Tom, "I realized I'm a lot smarter than Tony is and he bores me now," that wouldn't have sounded good, because she'd basically be badmouthing a man she does care about behind his back. And she'd run the risk of sounding arrogant, which I don't think she'd want Tom to see her as.

So instead she just told Tom they don't have a lot in common, which is vaguer than "I find him boring," but it's still truthful, it's definitely less hurtful to Tony, and it's also something that Tom would be able to understand as a valid reason for not wanting to continue the relationship (as he and Sybil were drawn towards each other because they had progressive viewpoints and very similar hopes for the future).

I think with Charles she was also trying hard not to trash/insult Tony (and, of course, Mary also may not have wanted to admit to Charles that he was right). So she framed her decision as being more about realizing that she sees Tony as a friend, but not as someone she wants to spend her life with. Again, she's being truthful, but not trashing Tony's intelligence.

Finally, with Tony, I think there's no way Mary would ever have told him "you're not smart/interesting enough for me," because that would have been hurtful and he was already angry. Unfortunately, that left her struggling to give him some other reason, and he was still pissed. She was in a no-win situation, basically.

L i N d $ @ y

Yeah, he was the only 'friend' Thomas had. I feel lost with Thomas right now. For a while I thought he has a huge SL ahead but now it seems that this new dilemma is going to eat him up plus his on-going feud with Baxter/Molesley too. I just want Jimmy back now even if he's not my favorite character downstairs.

Yeah. It may be amusing but Molesley is doing a fine job. I don't get why Carson has to tease him and be on about everything he does. Is it because Jimmy is gone and he has no one to pick on?

I think this SL will blow over soon. Mrs. Drewe finding out as well as the rest of the family (about Marigold).

I do. I like knowing about Violet's past. Maybe in the whole context it wasn't needed but I'd take this over some of the silly SLs going on right now.

I think he was around so that Robert will realize and look at his own marriage as well. Granted right now, if that's the only sole purpose that Shrimpie is around, why bring him back just so Robert can realize there's something wrong with his marriage? Robert should realize that all on his own and should have realized it way before. Also...

Andorra

Hmm, Sunshinebright, do you care for ANY soryline besides Mary?

I think we're all guilty of having our favourites, but actually in the last episode I didn't find much to complain (unlike the episode before that where it was all about Banna for 45 minutes, which is terribly boring for me).

But this episode had so many great scenes. I really loved it.

I do. I think it's great that Violet has her own storyline and I'm curious what is going to happen.

I thought it was a wonderful scene and I AM interested in what is going to happen? Lord Merton totally won me over and now I'm really curious if he did win Isobel's heart, too?


Again: I do! I love Shrimpy and his scene with Rose was wonderful and IMO very significant. Why let Julian Fellows Rose ask for a blank check when it comes to marry? What unsuitable man will she need it for later?

Julian Fellows doesn't write scenes like this when they're completely unnecessary. His "unnecessary" scenes are always about historical details and customs, because they're his pet peeve.

But here we have Rose telling her father that she won't be bullied into a suitable marriage and Shrimpy promising her that he will be on her side if she truly falls in love and has to fight for it.

I think it will be important at one point. And I'm looking forward to it!

ClaireK80

This. In theory I like the idea that most storylines are spanning many episodes. It seems Fellowes wants to give more attention even to the smaller arcs, that could've easily be contained in 1 - 2 episodes (like Violet and the Russian prince or the war memorial or Baxter's past).
But in practice, because of this, s5 has been very repetitive so far IMO. It seems in every episode, the same things are happening over and over again without any real development. In how many episodes have we seen Edith visiting the Drewes or Robert arguing with Sarah? Also some plots should've be concluded earlier. For example I liked Baxter's storyline, but why waiting three episodes to give us the whole explanation? It's not like it was so shocking after all.
I do think things will improve now though, finally somthing is moving. But the pacing of many storylines has been off.

I think Carson just finds Molesley a bit irritating, but I also don't like how he treats him (and I love Carson).
The weird thing is that in this case, even Mrs. Hughes (and Daisy LOL) felt the need to take Molesley down a peg ot two because of the 'first footman' thing, and he didn't seem to deserve it, apart from the fact that it's silly to claim the title of first footman when you're the only footman. So I guess JF is just playing the "poor Molesley fails at everything" gag again, but it's not that funny.

I also liked Violet's storyline, even if I think they should've cast an older actor to play the prince. He looks like 10 years younger that the Dowager. Also


Shrimpie's divorce probably will have ramifications in the next episodes I think.

northboundtrain

Re: Shrimpy's divorce, I didn't give it too much thought during the episode itself, but thinking it over I like the way JF handled it. I mean, am I emotionally invested in Shrimpy and his marriage? No. And if JF had brought shown us scenes of Shrimpy and Susan in India arguing, or if he'd cast some characters to be Shrimpy's friends so he could have someone to talk to about his marital troubles, that would have been incredibly distracting.

Instead, he found ways to use Shrimpy's divorce to further/emphasize the stories of the characters we DO care about:

1. Rose: If Shrimpy and Susan get divorced and are booted from polite society, that affects Rose and, I would assume, her ability to marry well.

2. Robert: Shrimpy's talk with Robert about unhappy marriages gave Robert something to think about re: his recent problems with Cora/Bricker

3. Mary: Mary said in one of the previous episodes that she doesn't want to get a divorce, and Shrimpy's return illustrates for modern audiences why Mary is so scared of one, which also explains why she is being so careful when it comes to deciding which man to marry. I think this connection was tied together very well when Shrimpy asked Mary at dinner how things were in London. Of course, he has no idea what happened with Tony, but viewers can make the connection between Shrimpy realizing he married the wrong woman and Mary's desperation to avoid being trapped into marriage with the wrong man.

4. Violet: Shrimpy's presence served the plot function of giving Violet a way to investigate the prince's wife (better than bringing in a new bit-player investigator or government official).

So I do think it worked pretty well, though obviously I wouldn't want to see Shrimpy/Susan's divorce become a major story.


I'd like it if Anna or Baxter could somehow figure out a way to contact Jimmy and bring him back to the Abbey to visit Thomas, at least. Their goodbye was just too depressing to have that be the last time they ever see each other.

Sunshinebright

Actually I like this show from top to bottom. I can enjoy without reservations everyone of their stories as long as there is a point to it designed to drive a larger or smaller plot. Does this make sense? Lately, there has been nothing for me to sink my teeth into and even the podcast I listen to are getting shorter and shorter in duration because they too don't have much new information to discuss. Watching these past episodes feels to me like all the stories have being discussed before and nothing new has been added from the first time the plot was introduced. So I want to enjoy all the characters again but I'm FORCED to focus only on the character that interests me. I hate to FF through scenes which I've been doing more and more.


Before I felt that Fellowes could say a lot with just a few scenes and few lines, now he says very little with a lot of scenes and the same lines. That Robert/Edith scene, haven't we seen it before? the line about brownshirts going round bullying people, haven't I heard this before? Did we learn anything new about Gregson whom we ALL want to know about, from that scene?
Why is Anna looking for different ways to keep probing her husband about Green's death? Their scenes together on this topic hardly moves beyond this. So perhaps you're right that the pacing is off, although I feel it's more than that.


I agree that's what it was about. However, Mary herself said the same already before to Anna and I believed her then. Why Shrimpy to drive this point home again? He and Robert already had a discussion about unhappy marriages back in Season 3 as well.


Yes I could see that. However WHO IS THIS PRINCE? of what purpose is this? Is Violet planning a reunion of some sorts or is she hoping for the prince to fall at her feet in gratitude? If this plot didn't happen at all, what could we have missed? NOTHING!
As for the Rose discussion with her father, it was nice to see her with her parent as I was beginning to think they had abandoned her. Of course the conversation about blank checks is going to come into play later. My concern is how interesting will this plot be? I like Rose so I have to wonder.

HarshBench

Well, I have to disagree that the time spent on Edith's scenes should have been given to the Mary/Tony scene. Mary has enough screen time as it is and not all of it necessary to her story.

I do think Edith's story is way too repetitive and that's annoying. Because right now EVERYONE is getting a repetitive story except Mary, so it seems like JF has given very little thought to the other characters.

But the way to handle the Edith issue is to write her a greater variety of scenes, maybe show her working on a column, instead of doing the lazy thing and repeating the same scene over and over. In other words, spend the time on Edith....just spend it better.

And while he's at it do the same for Tom, Cora, and Moseley, and Banna. For God's sake.

I get why Mary had more screen time for her love life when she was with Matthew because he was a character in his own right, people were invested in that romance, and his story was tied in with the estate itself. But right now her love life is not worth the time, IMO. Neither of these guys is Matthew and the level of interest is not nearly as high. Mary doesn't even need to remarry: she has her estate and her heir. Before it felt vital to her character arc and now it just feels like her love life, if that makes sense.

However, things did pick up this episode with the Tony outburst and the Charles/Mabel thing. I can enjoy it as a sort of game but not as a straight-up romance. I am hopeful that it's about to get more interesting.

I did love the Merton proposal and Daisy getting feisty. Thomas is interesting but we need more info. Robert's childishness is amusing I guess but also irritating. I want Cora to really let him have it. And I want Edith to let all of them have it. I also like Rose getting involved with the refugees and such. She seems to have grown a bit since 5.01 and that's nice.

As for the Prince, I have to say I also don't care about that story. IDK why but I don't. I want to see time spent on the love lives of the younger characters (*cough* TOM *cough*) and not the oldsters. Sorry.

As for Shrimpie, I don't care about his marriage either BUT I just really like the character and the actor. And I think the divorce will come into play in several ways and serve a few storylines: Mary's, Rose's, maybe Coberts. Of course I don't care about Cobert's marriage either and think she'd be far better off without him. But still, the Flintshire divorce could be a very effective plot device. And I hope it ends up being particularly important to Rose's story, which would make sense given that they're HER parents and she is the one most likely to be impulsive about love and marriage. It is also most likely to impact her marriage prospects. Robert mentioned the Flintshires being shunned and also Shrimpie having no money. That would not impact Mary IMO but it could impact Rose.

lassothemoon

Because that wasn't the point. He was saying, "Look, I'm smarter than he is and you're dumbing yourself down"--which is disrespectful to both of them, everything on screen backs that up. If she finds out later that he's not all sunshine and roses, then all the better for him. He likes to be right--which again, is backed up by what we saw on screen. He's lied in the past; no reason why he can't lie again.

I don't see him through rose-tinted glasses. He has some scruples but he's not a straight up 'nice' guy. More like Carlisle than Matthew Crawley.

northboundtrain

Again, in which scene was it stated or implied that Charles knows or suspects Tony to be capable of violence, either against Mary or just against women in general?

Because that was what you implied earlier.

L i N d $ @ y

I like Carson too but one too many is a bit much. I just don't like that Molesley is getting to be running gag and be picked on. I don't think he deserves that.

I agree. There must be a reason why Shrimpy is back. In a way, I also see the MacClare's as another Crawley family but different: they have their own issues/problems to deal with but in this case the marriage is not working and they are a broken family. Can you imagine if this same thing happened to the Crawleys?

I would be pissed if that's the last we see of Jimmy. I felt that it happened all too soon and while he really should be fired, there's no closure with Thomas. He's not everyone's favorite person downstairs (and both Carson & Mrs. Hughes can attest to that, haha) but we need a 'proper' goodbye for Jimmy, however that will be.

yaoibhin

Almost a week late but might as well add my two cents.

This episode was very slow and very upstairs centric imo. The show is still an ensemble cast but somehow the episode was 40 minutes upstairs and just over 10 minutes worth of downstairs. I wouldn't have as much of a problem of this if a lot of the plot points in this episode weren't repetitive and, to be honest, boring. We didn't need so many scenes of Edith staring at Marigold from a distance or more of Robert's childishness. I'm far more interested on what's going on with Thomas right now rather than Shrimpie's divorce but he's the one who gets more screen time.

Also I hope they tie up Mary's suitors storyline soon, everybody I've talked to who watches Downton in real life has grown tired of it.

northboundtrain

That's a good point -- Shrimpy/Susan is serving as a sort of cautionary tale for Cora/Robert and for Mary.


It was just too sad a departure for both Jimmy and Thomas. Ethel was fired, but she was also brought back and given a happy ending to her story, so hopefully the same will hold true in Jimmy's case.


I'm also very interested in Thomas's storyline, but I believe he got very little screentime because his story is meant to be mysterious and also to play out past this particular episode. Right now, all we're meant to be is intrigued/suspicious, which is why we could only get little glimpses here and there (the magazine, the injections, Thomas crying at the door, Baxter repeatedly trying to figure out what's wrong).

If the storyline's meant to move slowly, then there's not much else JF can do if he wants to drag it out and keep us uncertain as to what exactly Thomas is doing (I mean, I think it's pretty clear he's trying some crackpot's "make yourself straight" scheme, but I've also read reviews that don't seem to know what's going on, which I think is what JF intends -- then when Thomas reveals what he's doing, it'll be shocking for those who haven't figured it out).

I do agree with you, though, that there needs to be a better balance between upstairs/downtstairs.

L i N d $ @ y

Yes I agree, too much focus upstairs than downstairs. Overall, there's really nothing much going on with the upstairs cast as it is downstairs. I am however interested to see how this whole thing with Bricker will play out. And I would like to see the rest of the family find out about Marigold soon. Downstairs, I'm tired of the Green SL and the only thing I am interested in is Thomas' SL.