puffball7

I think the whittling down of the downstairs cast is to demonstrate that the "servant class" was on it's way out.

Bunting mainly shot herself in the foot this episode because she would not let the topic drop when the conversation had come to it's natural conclusion, she just kept going on, like Mary said.
I think it very telling that for the first time Tom did not try to defend her or excuse her in that scene, in fact he admonished her. She was left by herself, isolated because of her rudeness.

northboundtrain

I didn't think it was bad at all that she accepted Charles's dinner invitation. First, because neither Charles nor Mary seemed to think it was inappropriate for them to be seen having dinner together (and Mary, in particular, is sensitive to the idea of doing something that seems scandalous).

And also because Mary never told Tony that she chose him over Charles. Tony jumped to that conclusion on his own.

Now, would Tony be pleased to know that Mary told Charles ahead of time that she was planning to break up with Tony? Probably not. But that's such a standard beat of love triangles (woman breaks down and admits to love interest #1 that she plans to break up with love interest #2 at the earliest opportunity) that I didn't think anything of it.


I have to say that I thought he handled it very badly. I get that he's heart-broken and doesn't want to give up on their relationship, but I didn't like that he tried to make her ashamed for sleeping with him, or that he refused to take no for an answer.


I actually get where Isobel, Rose, and Cora are coming from. First, because all three of them seem to be acutely aware that Tom feels like he doesn't fit in, and they all seem to believe that the best way to help him is to rabidly encourage his friendship with Sarah.

But there are other reasons, aside from that:

1. Isobel seems to genuinely like Sarah as a person -- and it's also possible that she likes that Sarah shakes things up and questions the Crawleys' status quo. Unlike the rest of the family, she encouraged Sarah to speak up at the first dinner, even though she knew Robert wasn't happy.

2. Rose likes projects and likes standing out from the crowd. Acting as Sarah Bunting's champion is a way to do that.

3. Cora knows all too well that the best way to keep Sybbie close by is to make Tom feel like they all accept and value the kind of man he is. She probably feels like the more dinners Sarah comes to, the friendlier Sarah will be with them, and the more Tom will realize that Downton can be his home as much as it is the Crawleys'.

But Cora's also rightly pissed at Robert. So I took her eagerness to invite Sarah to dinner to be a swipe at him.


I gasped when the wedding gown appeared, because, like you, I knew that was going to illicit some kind of look between Charles and Mary.


It looked like some kind of injections. I think he's using drugs to try to "cure" himself of being gay.


I thought last night's dinner scene was necessary to make it clear to the audience that Robert doesn't object to the idea of change, but just to the idea of Sarah in particular. His anger seemed to be coming not from the fact that he was insulted but because he's growing ever more scared that Sarah will take Tom/Sybbie away. That, I think, is the real danger he sees.


Hey, welcome to the board!! You have to come join us in the Charles/Mary discussion thread.


I agree with you -- I cannot understand for the life of me why JF moves through time so quickly. This is a hit show...you would think he'd want to slow it down a bit.

All I can figure is that he has a very deliberate idea about what year he wants the show to end, and he's just trying to make it to that year before the show goes off the air.


It's not so much that he raised his voice. It's the things he was saying and his "well, we're together whether you like it or not, so there" attitude.

Plus, I think the audience was more inclined to give Matthew lee-way in his fights with Mary because Matthew was one of the show's main characters, so we were basically going on his journey just as much as we were going on Mary's. We aren't in the same position with Tony because Tony doesn't really exist outside of Mary. Not like Matthew did.

lassothemoon

What I won't like, and this is as someone who's totally cool with Mary partying with Charles Blake ( on the condition he monitors his ass mode ) but not marrying him after this episode ( because he is an ass and the odds of Fellowes literally calling Mary of all people's next husband an ass are slim, sorry ladies ), is if he tries to get Mabel back with Gillingham. Because if he's literally that horrible how can you justify pushing him at someone else because it benefits you? I don't want him with Mary, Mabel, or anyone else if he's capable of violence.

That's at least what I took "soften the blow" as.


And to be fair since I don't prefer either of them, neither of them really have a purpose/existence outside of Mary, Blake included. I mean they were both specifically written when Dan Stevens left--so I can see how it's difficult to view them as people outside that lens. I don't give either of them leeway.

carrie.suze

Originally Posted by aggiemom09121416 (View Post)
First post, so here goes!

Enjoyed seeing Mary and Charles together, I've been Team Blake since last season.

Hey, welcome to the board!! You have to come join us in the Charles/Mary discussion thread.


Yes, do come and join us in the Charles/Mary thread Aggie, you'll be very welcome.
and enjoy posting here too hun. xxx

northboundtrain

What makes you think Charles knows that Tony is capable of violence? I would think if he thought that, he would have warned Mary about it a long, long time ago.


You know, when I wrote that post I almost added "And I would have to say the same thing about Charles." Obviously I should have, because you're absolutely right -- Charles and Tony and, yes, Evelyn, haven't gotten nearly the amount of focus as Matthew did.

But, IMO, there's a good reason for that. If JF had brought in a suitor so soon after Matthew's death and made him the new Matthew, with his own story/journey and his own family and his own scenes with a bunch of other people outside of Mary, it wouldn't have flown with most fans, most of whom are here primarily for the Crawley family and their staff.

So I maintain that JF was correct to introduce the suitors the way he did -- through Mary. It kept them on a level enough playing field that many fans were (and remain) unsure which man she would choose in the end. It kept the focus on Mary and the decision she must make.

Obviously, my hope is that whatever happens this season that JF will be ready to pair Mary and Charles romantically in S6. By that time, I think he'd be a bit more free to explore what makes Charles tick -- for example, with a formal engagement would come a meeting between the Crawleys and the Blakes, along with some focus on, say, how Charles might balance his work and helping out at Downton, or what kind of father he'd be to George, or what kind of relationships he'd have with the rest of the Crawleys and their staff.

lassothemoon

Because he's a calculating guy. He reveals things when he wants to--like his inheritance, for example. If he wants to make himself look good, then he'll make himself look good. I don't think the inheritance could have been used that way because I don't think that sort of thing impresses impresses Mary at this point.

I honestly think we know everything we need to know about both him and Gillingham, so I personally wouldn't count on it.

I know all I ever wanted to know about what makes Blake tick.

JoJoF92

well, there's not much left to add to all these
maybe just a few things
I don't think Mary is being completely fair with Tony but I don't mind that. besides he was acting rather childish in my opinion. he just couldn't take no for an answer, like he's obsessed with her or something..that's not very attractive

I find it hard to understand why people keep suggesting that Bunting stays for dinner all the time. maybe they just like drama so much, but I wasn't surprised Robert couldn't take it anymore. I'm a very tolerant person but I would've slapped her if she'd kept going on with her BS like that..I like that she's helping Daisy but woman, for heaven's sakes, shut up!!

I've heard things about how the upper class raise or used to raise their children but I wouldn't mind seeing something else on the show, cause these teeny tiny scenes where the nannies bring the kids downstairs and they see Tom and Mary and Robert for 10 seconds a day seem awkward to me..:/ some real parenting time wouldn't hurt and would be sweet to see

the proposal Isobel got was really touching, I hope she won't refuse :')

the golden line of the ep for me was what the policeman said: "I'm not paid to think." almost a 100 years and the duties and capabilities of a police officer haven't changed at all xd

Shaba1

When she was introduced last year I like both the character of Sarah Bunting and the actress who played here. I though it was brilliant to give Tom a love interest. He was feeling like a third wheel after the death of Sybil and Matthew. But now I think she is just irritating. I mean damn I understand that she is a socialist and does not like the British Aristocracy, but have a little class. You do not have to challenge a man in his own home when wife has invited you to dine. I mean there is such a things as polite disagreement. I think Julian Fellows has really beaten a dead horse with the arguments between her and Robert.

L i N d $ @ y

I was expecting Tony to just walk away and let Mary chase him.

Welcome to ! It's very nice to read your review and reaction from the ep and I hope you stay around until the CS. I agree with this post about Sarah. In this weird way, I want her around just to see Robert blow off more fuse. It was embarrassing but entertaining to watch.

I don't think he is actually. I don't get where these theories come from because (even if he was poor), I think he's still rich than most people anyway.

I can say the same thing for Mary since S1 until now, a lot of people don't like her because she is a bitch. What she did to Tony is unacceptable and I was hoping for Tony to give her a taste of her own medicine but instead he walked away with her. I think he was being a gentleman about it but Mary broke his heart so I don't think being a gentleman about it counts now.

Thanks. I was hoping it wasn't drugs but poor Thomas. He doesn't even have a close friend downstairs (and up) so this will just get worse I think.

Mine was by Violet: "Hope is a tease designed to prevent us accepting reality." - so true!

Well said and also welcome to and to the board!

carrie.suze

Welcome to the forum from me too hun, I think we're all hoping Sarah has outstayed her welcome now, everyone's getting tired of her.

ClaireK80

yes, I liked Moesley's storyline with Baxter in the first episodes, but now he seems to be back to just providing comic relief.

And about the new downstairs members, I think there are too many characters in this show already, even if it's true that people upstairs get much more attention that the servants.

Re: Mary and Tony

I also didn't particularly like Mary's behaviour, she should probably have told Tony that while she was ok with the idea of sleeping with him, she still wasn't sure about marrying him (TBH I think she shouldn't have accepted to sleep with him at all, but that's another story). Also she never seemed to take into consideration his feelings, only her own necessities.

That said, I didn't like Tony's reaction either. I understand he was hurt, but he really sounded menacing. After all, she never really accepted his proposal, and even if she did, she has the right of changing her mind right? Like he did with Mabel, BTW.
Also when he said "no, you're not breaking up with me, we'll get through this together"? Seriously?

I also haven't understood what Charles meant when he said "you've got a way to soften the blow, if you want to." I thought he referred to Mabel, maybe Blake knows she's still into Tony, even if she said she's moved on.

L i N d $ @ y

Molesley has been comic relief since he came on. A few drama here and there with his father though I personally like the character to be a comic relief since everyone else is emo on the show.

This. It was unfair to Tony and he didn't deserve this brush off at all!

Exactly. He could've argued that she never considered his feelings, guilt-trip her or something but his reaction to all this made me scratch my head.

northboundtrain

Yeah, but if he thought Tony was capable of violence and he also wants Mary for himself, why wouldn't he at least have told Mary that in 502 when she hinted that she was choosing Tony? Charles was clearly upset, so why not take her aside and say, "Mary, before you make your decision, you should know that Tony has a history of violence"?

If you're thinking that Charles didn't reveal that in 502 because he's the type of guy who would willingly put Mary in physical danger because that's part of some grand plan he has to reveal things at just the right moment, then we'll have to disagree, because that's not my reading of Charles at all, nor do I think that's backed up by anything we've seen on screen.


I'm very scared for him. When he said that there wasn't a man in the house who would help him, I wondered if he was thinking of Jimmy's absence.


But Mary never told Tony or even hinted to him that she was "sure" about marrying him. And he knew she was indecisive about marriage when he went up to her room and propositioned her: he said he believed that she would be sure once they had sex.

Of course, Mary could have told Tony point-blank before they left Liverpool that she was thinking they shouldn't get married after all, but I can understand why she didn't -- she was clearly confused and in a vulnerable position in a hotel room with a man who wasn't her husband (even checked in under their own names!). After all, if people knew Tony slept with someone before marriage, no one would care. He has nothing to lose. But if they knew Mary slept with someone before marriage? Scandal. It seems like she was trying to keep the peace with Tony while she figured out what to do.

And, to Mary's credit, the moment Tony said they'd be married soon, she shut him down. That should have been a sign to Tony that something wasn't quite right, but he was too happy to notice.

aggiemom09121416

Ok, to unruffle any feathers I messed up in my siding with Team Blake (lol), I will give Tony credit from last season's comment about Blake to Mary. When the young men were vying for Mary's affections, Tony told Mary that Charles was blue blood and in line to inherit a title and such.
I liked Tony and Charles both very much last season, but there's just something about Charles that I prefer--I don't know if it's his ruggedness, or his work ethic, maybe it's just chemistry between the two characters.
Tony is handsome, charming, etc, but perhaps the writer's are showing some flaws in his character this season (suggesting they spend a week away--that would have been scandalous at that time, especially for Mary!, and the subsequent possibly-overheard argument in public when Mary tried to break things off. And yes, his attitude at the end of that conversation was threatening, imo.

Since shows like this thrive on unhappiness,upheaval, and angst (lol) the consequences of a week of being tangled in the sheets doesn't bode well for a future relationship for Lady Mary and Charles....(it took 3 seasons for Mary and Matthew to finally put a bow on it). lol

----
And we need Jimmy back. I've never cared for Mr. Bates. Everyone downstairs is sorta boring.

HarshBench

I loved Jimmy and his presence is missed. He was cheeky and charming, and I like how he rolled his eyes at Carson a bit. Carson deserves it. IDK if Speleers wanted to leave but right now I feel like they got rid of Jimmy just to spur this new storyline for Thomas and I think that was a mistake.

Carson has just gotten to be a bully with the servants IMO and too much of a prig. He was mean-spirited with Moseley about the First Footman thing. I do find Moseley funny but every episode there's another running Moseley joke and I feel like it's taking up time that could be better spent on other stories.

I agree that the week with Tony could become a problem for Charles and Mary down the line, assuming Mary manages to end it with Tony and take up with Charles instead. I prefer him myself, always did but especially after Tony's tantrum this episode. I think what bothered me the most was not that he was upset and even angry. I understand why. But calling her out on sleeping with him?! It was HIS idea! He suggested so she could be "sure" about marrying him, so clearly he knew she was not sure beforehand. In other words, he knew she was sleeping with a man she might not want to marry. But I guess he was too arrogant to think she'd turn him down after a week in the sack.

When he asked if she was saying he was a bad lover, I wanted her to say: Well, now that you mention it, you're hung like a hamster. I wonder if he has a hang-up about his....manhood.