Sunshinebright

Eh Northbound are you sure we are not the same person??? That post.............reads eerily like what I would have written!
I think the thing with Tom is that Fellowes has kept him in limbo far too long. Though I like the changing dynamics between him and Grantham because of their different politics ( and also because he has seen someone else who agrees with him), Tom's story has always read to me as an afterthought, a story that writes itself that can go anywhich way rather than a character Fellowes invests that much in.

But generally, I do dislike the changes Tom has made from 'Branson'. I feel currently the show is lacking strong males since Matthew died, that are not conniving (Thomas), insecure (Tom), needy(Tony), tedious (Grantham though I like him), object of ridicule(Molesley although he has a strength to him), unreadable (Bates although you can count him as a strong male but his complexities obscure that). I mean I could go on.
That's why the interest in 'Mary's men' is high. One of these characters will have to center the story and be that strong core for Downton.

lassothemoon

Pre- dinner. She was done with him till he started talking.


His being his boss is probably determined by seniority--he worked in diplomacy before this, which would fall under the Home Office.

No, he didn't show as much of it but it'd really be a disservice to the viewers if he thought that they weren't capable of drawing the conclusion that if she's stayed friends with him over the years, then obviously there was something that made her think that he was worth her time, and you're suggesting the opposite--which from what we have seen isn't true. He obviously wasn't afraid of making a snide comment after Blake insulted Mary--so I've no question of his wit. Fellowes has just chosen to emphasize that Blake is acerbic, Gillingham is tenacious, and Evelyn values honor and is determined to marry for reasons of love.

And if you think about it, the reason why that dialogue is there from a writer's standpoint is Blake came in as a blank slate. And the two of them despised each other initially. He had to show them having fun/rolling around in crap/making comebacks to stress the fact that they no longer hated each other. Nothing special there. He didn't have to do it with Evelyn because the audience already knows they're friends.

...he's been showing us he's intelligent since season 1? He obviously put two and two together about the Pamuk situation, he had a job with the Foreign Office, he was an officer on the Western Front and managed to survive, he reads Trollope who incidentally is Fellowes's favorite author--I really don't need to go on. He's just as intelligent as Blake claims to be. Working longer in an industry than someone has denotes experience and isn't an indication that they're less intelligent than you are.

I never said she wanted to marry him now, did I?

There was a time where she did, and my guess is that since she still has no idea why he 'turned her down' in Fellowes's own words ( S1 script book ), it isn't a jump to think that that's why she's not made him an option. She had every reason to think he only wanted her now because the complication of scandal has blown over. So when he leaves a second time, with that in hindsight and with her still being ignorant of his reasoning in the past, no, she isn't worked up about it. I mean, it'd be very in character as well as sensible for her to see that aspect of their past as an obstacle, but it's hardly insurmountable.

At this point she has no idea what she wants. She thinks she wants Gillingham, and Blake is making her rethink it, but that doesn't mean that she's going to choose him--or either of them for that matter. I can't help but think about his line in the CS: "Assuming we're the only ones in the ring." They aren't, necessarily. Mary realizes that she isn't a spring chicken and she might have ruled all others out, including Evelyn because he wasn't, as I've said many times, pining after her like they were. However in the likely event that she doesn't pick either of them, he's going to be the one that's there and has been there in spite of however society deems her--which is in essence, why he shines by comparison. It does have a literary beauty to it and it does make sense.


Snappy dialogue doesn't compensate for a lack of compatibility. And frankly neither of them are compatible. I believe Fellowes is proving and will prove that, based on what he's written. He's more a Carlisle than he is a Matthew Crawley, regardless of how much people like to compare the two.

And that goes without mentioning his Nice Guy TM complex. Fellowes isn't going to write her crawling to him.

L i N d $ @ y

I thought this was an OK ep but I did enjoy the 1st ep more than this one. I'll read some posts when I go offline and comment on some tomorrow.

I'm a bit sad that Jimmy is gone. This ep just made me ship him with Thomas so much. I do think that Thomas has a a big (hopefully) SL this season with regards to Baxter/Molesley so we'll see.

Oh and Rose. Apart from the wireless, there's really not much going on with her right now.

Sarah is tolerable in this ep but I still don't like her. I'm glad she didn't bother to show her face upstairs and is helping Daisy around with learning.

I think Mrs. Drewe is bound to find out about Edith's connection to Marigold soon, we'll see.

Poor Anna in that shop but good acting on Joanne's part.

I sense some Bricker/Cora flirtation and I wonder what's gonna come from that?

Wow, Charles is so good looking and bitter (and I say this with love because I do like him)! I felt as heart-broken as him but what can one do? Mary's made up her mind and at least we know by now who she chose.

Robert/Tom conversation over dinner FTW! More of that please.

Mary & Tony closing the deal... I'm glad we didn't see any of it.

My LOL moment was everyone listening at the wireless and Violet standing up.

I wonder who the witness is with Green's murder? Mostly, I just wish this SL is dead already.

ClaireK80

I also think after M/M, Fellowes wanted to write a different kind of romantic storyline for Mary, who has to choose between two equally plausible suitors, while with Matthew it was always clear he was "the one" for her. I mean, there's no comparison between Mary/Matthew/Carlisle in S2 and Mary/Tony/Charles in S4. Only the second is a real love triangle.

I don't know if it was a great idea (OTPs generally excite the viewers more IMO), but at least it was different from what we saw in S1-2.

That said, while in S4 the writing suggested that both Tony and Charles could be endgame, now after watching the first two episodes of S5 I think it's gonna be Charles. For example their exchange "It doesn't seem I've broken your heart" / "You seem disappointed by that" is typical "romantic" writing IMO.
Also the fact that at the beginning of the season Mary has basically chosen Tony doesn't bode well for him; ditto for the implication that Gillingham isn't as clever as Mary is.

I think Fellowes has still many episodes to make people warm up to Mary / Charles (if Charles is endgame). Actually it seems people are starting to dislike Gillingham after the first two episodes, and to think he is hiding something or is after her money etc. I don't think this is unintentional.

My guess is Mary will realise she doesn't love Gillingham after all, and then at that point Charles will have moved on and she will have to try and conquer him.
And everything will be complicated by the revelation that Gillingham killed Green, LOL (yep, I do think it was him).

Re: Tom, I don't think Sarah should be considered a serious love interest for him, she is there to bring his political side back and at the same time to make him understand that he belongs to Downton now. Which at least makes sense, while the Edna plot was completely pointless IMO.

And I think we'll soon meet his real love interest.

Andorra

Oh, I sure hope you're right about that one!!

I don't see the Edna-plotline as "completely pointless". I think he needed it to see there's a line between him and the servants now, that he can't cross. And we saw that he learned his lesson when he dealt with Thomas in the CS. He didn't try to be "friends" any more, but wanted to be treated with respect.

Also I think Edna was there to rule out the "working class" option for him. It was clear afterwards that he can never go and marry a working class woman and expect her to be integrated in the family.

Now Sarah is there to rekindle his confidence and IMO her second purpose is to rule out the "middleclass option". She would be a perfect match on paper, if she was ready to accept the family, but she isn't. A woman of her confidence and education won't be ready to live in such a restricted society and under such restricting rules.

So IMO that only leaves a posh girl for him. But a posh girl who would overlook his origins and be ready to live a life very much on the sideline of society, will be hard to find.

carrie.suze

'And everything will be complicated by the revelation that Gillingham killed Green, LOL (yep, I do think it was him). '

Have to say you've opened my eyes with this thought Claire, I didn't consider him for one minute, could be a very interesting plot line if it turns out to be true.



Our thoughts collided with this one Lindsay

'Mary & Tony closing the deal... I'm glad we didn't see any of it. '

L i N d $ @ y

I agree. Mary needs someone who challenges her intellectually and emotionally. All of which Matthew has done with her. And even during married life, I always recall this scene, when Mary was being nasty to Edith, Matthew stepped in and made Mary stop and she did. He has that hold over her which I think these men should have on Mary as well.

Like what has been said already, ship and let ship. We're all allowed to think differently here and agree to disagree.

Robert loves Isis so much it's crazy. I'm a bit cautious about Bricker/Cora now because I see some flirtation going on with them but let's see.

Ah, I like this!

lassothemoon

I need to find the article he said this in but I saved a quote from Tom Cullen. I think someone asked about the intellectual challenge thing and he have a really good--and true--response, “I think that actually Mary and Gillingham are well suited in that they’re people that are actually incredibly warm and loving and they want to build a better world, which isn’t necessarily an intellectual thing. It feels more of a compassionate thing.” Now I don't want Mary and Gillingham together but I agree. He shows an understanding of her character in saying she doesn't have to argue back and forth with someone to be happy. I mean, everyone keeps citing "Matthew challenges her Matthew challenges her" but ..she doesn't necessarily want exactly what she had with Matthew. There are different ways to challenge a person than making them question everything they think about the world ( unnecessarily I might add ), and that is not what she wants if she's consciously choosing to be with Gillingham over Blake. He was butt hurt over it and saw fit to say she was dumbing herself down for a man. That's in essence what he said.

Viewers might want that kind of dynamic because it's hard to let go, but she's never going to have that again in the exact same way because a) that's boring and b) she obviously doesn't want that.


Edit: it's from here: http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/d...-cullen-spill/

Andorra

What irks me most about the continuing "Matthew challenged her" thing is, that Matthew was an incredibly warm and charming person and Blake (at least what I've seen so far) is not.

Just the fact that Blake quarrels with Mary can't be all the reason for her to fall for him, surely!? Matthew was also very charming and nice and so clearly admired her, that it was easy to see even when they quarreld that he was in love with her. Blake was just snide and rude and condescenting and then suddenly changed to be her fan from one moment to the next and just because of a few pigs and immediately Tony Gillingham and he weren't any different any more. They're just two handsome, dark haired suitors, both well born and wealthy and I don't see a big difference.

I thought Blake a little bit nicer in the last episode, but I don't buy his love for Mary. He seems to like the chase, but I don't "feel" it. With Tony Gillingham I "feel" it, but I think he's too obsessed with her and in an unhealthy state of mind anyway. I think he's a depressed person and would need a therapy instead of Mary.

lassothemoon

I don't think Blake loves Mary at all--I believed him when he said she didn't break his heart.

And I agree with you about Matthew's compassion, and I think that's what's she's attracted to in Tony--because he is a compassionate person.

He probably is suffering from depression. Practically his whole family is dead. I still find him obsessive but in hindsight it's a tad more understandable.

HarshBench

Incredibly warm and loving? I don't think I've ever seen that said of Mary. Yes, that she has a warm and loving side but not that she is exceptionally so. More that she comes across as cold and self-centered (which she is in many ways and has demonstrated in her actions) but she also can be warm and loving with those to whom she is close.

As for wanting to build a better world? I don't see that either. To better things for her own family and again her own circle, but not the world at large. Sybil was the one who was interested in the outside world, in making social progress, committing herself to helpful work, etc.

I don't get this impression of either Mary or Tony and I can't think of examples. Except that when Mary talked to Jack she said that "in a better world" she would not want or expect Jack to give up Rose. So sure, she'd like the world to be better but wouldn't we all? It isn't her priority and she doesn't discuss it or commit her time to it as far as I can tell.

And Tony? What has he done to better the world? Frankly, Tom Cullen has said some things about his character that seem like head canon to me. He has said that Tony doesn't expect things to come to him, that he wants to work for his living. Really? Then why doesn't he do it? He doesn't have a job and we never seen him working. I am not saying he feels entitled but on the other hand neither does he work hard. I've never seen him work at all, whereas Matthew, Blake and Evelyn all did or do.

He also said Tony is humble and I do agree with that. Except for thinking he is great in bed, apparently.

northboundtrain

I don't think it's fair to say that viewers just want an M/M retread because "it's hard to let go."

Maybe some of us just think Charles is more interesting than Tony is? Maybe some of us like JO and MD's chemistry? Maybe some of us have a problem with Tony's behavior?

There really are are plenty of valid reasons to like Charles over Tony. You've pointed to some of them yourself here in this thread.


Again, if she didn't want that, why was Charles in the race at all? Why didn't she choose Tony long ago? Or make it a battle between Tony and Evelyn?

Clearly, some part of Mary enjoys being with a man who can challenge her. However, she also has a strong physical attraction to Tony. Now, she seems to think that sex will help her decide. But if she's so sure about Tony, why does she need sex? If the sex is awful (I doubt it will be, but just for the sake of argument), would she dump him? And if did dump him, what would that say about the supposed strength of her attraction to him in the first place?


I have to question this idea that Mary is only attracted to Charles because she quarrels with him. JF has said that Mary finds his brain attractive and entertaining. He's a smart guy. He has a progressive and optimistic viewpoint. He's funny and charming. (Now, you may say he's not funny, but Mary seems to think he is, as she's laughed with him on several occasions.)


I don't think it's just about the chase for Charles at all. He seemed to become interested in her/attracted to her before he knew Tony was in the picture (he didn't find out Tony was coming to Downton until after the pigs incident, which is when he and Mary thawed toward each other). When he wrote Cora, he didn't invite himself to Downton -- Cora had to ask him to come (notably, after Mary seemed put out that he wasn't coming). And, apparently, he's been staying away from Downton for awhile, as it had been awhile since he and Mary had seen each other.

If it were all about the chase, wouldn't he be finding every opportunity to hang around as much as Tony has been?


I do agree with this. I read an interview where TC said that Tony is a very sad man and that Mary brings out the lightness in him. The problem for me is that I don't really care about Tony as an individual, so I'm not interested in watching Mary build him up and give him a reason to be happy again.

lassothemoon

There are also valid reasons to dislike him, many of which I have pointed out in this thread--the most egregious of which being his giving unsolicited advice after she indicates she's choosing Gillingham, for the time being, over him. He's jealous, and he's bitter--that's what happened on screen. I rewatched it and I'm frankly uncomfortable, as I said, with his dictating that she's too smart for a man she chose to be with over him--because it makes him come off as the spurned jealous suitor which he is.

As far as liking him--arguably the majority of viewers who want him for Mary do so because of the allusions to Matthew Crawley, many of which you made in this thread. I don't think it's unfair because I can't count on my fingers how many times, in publications and elsewhere, he's been compared with Matthew Crawley.

I have a problem with Gillingham's behavior, and I have a problem with Blake's behavior too. More than that I have a problem with his notion that Mary only values intellectually charged conversation over love and loyalty and in essence her partner's making her happy because it's frankly a load of bull. He seems to have this ridiculous idea that she can only be happy with a guy who challenges everything she says ( I.e. him ), and can't be happy in a marriage based on companionship, attraction, compassion, shared experiences / background, basically everything she wants from Tony, when there is potential in that kind of dynamic which she evidentially sees.

Fellowes was suggesting she saw potential attraction in both but as of last week she didn't want Blake.

I mean she isn't bored by Gillingham and she told Blake "I'm sorry if I've hurt you"--to me that's her making a decision, at least for the time being, of him over Blake.

From a pragmatic writer's standpoint, Blake was in the race most likely because of what I pointed out--it was similar enough to the back and forth M/M had early on to keep those parties most damaged by his death engaged.

She doesn't necessarily dislike him, but she doesn't like him enough to choose him over Tony, or for his spiel to stop her from taking Gillingham for a test drive.

Re HarshBench: Mary is very compassionate. She chooses when and when not to be, but I've seen examples since the beginning of the show--her being a protective older sister to Sybil ( which yeah is kinda offset by her relationship with Edith but that's beside the point ), her defending Tom, her caring for Matthew when he was wounded...I think it's definitely a trait she has. She's also had to navigate a patriarchal society all her life that denied her her birthright simply because she was born a girl, so that could definitely fuel her wanting a better world. She might not be as political as Sybil was but she is open to change/wants change--even just from that conversation with Anna after she went to the chemist.


Tony did turn his house into a school for girls--so that does better the world in that sense.

Sunshinebright

We will just have to wait and see how things pan out. Personally, I don't pay any attention to what actors say about their characters because I find they too are like us - speculating. Mary? warm? wants a better world? I mean I like Mary more than most of the characters but she is NOT these things. She is capable of them BUT she 'hides' her brain unlike say Isobel, Sybil and Bunting, even Edith. In fact Cullen saying these things make me actually believe that Mary is indeed cleverer than his character if he sees 'a warm, compassionate woman who wants to change the world'!
Anyway Tony is a romantic and comes across as a 'dreamer' so that part is accurate and I think has been portrayed in screen so far.

'...........ship and let ship............

Well the Evelyn shipping (I hate that word) is really crashingly repetitive and goes around in circles. I like this board because it's mature and informative. If only we can avoid these 'shipping' that goes round in circles. The same arguments have made over and over again about characters who are barely given any airtime and whose story exist largely in people's minds. Can we just stick to what is on-screen? the story the Fellowes is telling rather than the one we wish he could tell? Just my thoughts.

Anyway I am very much looking forward to the upcoming episodes as I believe the story of the season should begin to unfold.

lassothemoon

Well you could make the same argument about Julian Ovenden not knowing Mary's character either with the some of the things he's said, but I won't. I will say that in his character's case all I'm seeing is the projection of the love of a fine actor, which he is, I'll admit it, onto a character who's saying some troubling things.

Mary has been a woman who is capable of being compassionate, and that he recognized that shows an understanding that she isn't just this cold and calculating woman that 99% of the world views her as. She's one of the most complexly written characters, male or female, in television. I'm curious, though, how do you view Mary Crawley?

I'd advise you to check out the scriptbook. The story exists in Fellowes's head and that's what you're seeing on screen.

Such as, for example, Blake throwing a proverbial hissy fit that he wasn't picked.

I'm only going to speak for myself, but I ship Mary and happiness, and out of all the men we've met I believe Evelyn is the only one who hasn't done anything troubling that would impede her happiness. He's a good man and although Blake and Gillingham are not bad men, I wouldn't call them good either. One strikes me as entitled and the other as desperate.

It's another matter but both of these men are pawns in her growth as a character. Because she has always always always been at the center of her own narrative.