lassothemoon

It's almost like a 20th century Persuasion, except the genders are reversed. It makes sense too why she's not really been going for him because he did turn her down when she needed him, and I can understand why that could have damaged their relationship. We know he was in love with her but as far as she knows he's just interested again because this time there's no scandal and no lack of inheritance.

Lauren60

Not much time to post right now but here goes.....

JF is to blame for much of the audience not being too enamored with either new love interest for Mary. He's done the new characters a disservice by not developing them on their own. We've only gotten to know them as they relate to Mary. He also made the mistake of going the love triangle route which divided the audience. Very different from what he did with Matthew. JF had everyone rooting for him to be with Mary.

The new guys and Mary's relationship with them is constantly compared to Mary and Matthew. It's difficult to catch lightening in a bottle once let alone twice and some M/M shippers refuse to accept Mary with anyone else. I have no problem with that at all. My point is before the new guys were even introduced, they had no chance to be accepted as the new love for Mary by some of the audience.

I loved M/M and their love story is what got me hooked on DA. I find myself as invested and maybe even more so with Mary and Tony. I won't go into all the whys but I loved their dynamic from the start. I do feel like I'm in the minority and am often taken aback by the hate thrown at the Tony character. I get that people may not like him nor prefer him for Mary but some of the vitriol is really over-the-top. I just can't wrap my mind around it. You would think he did to Mary what Green did to Anna. He's made out to be this nefarious character and I just don't get it.

To me all signs point to it being Tony as Mary's choice. She's told him she loves him and she's been quite intimate with him having kissed him twice already. If she "makes love" with him as it looks like she will then he is end game for sure. JF will not let Mary, the heroine of his story, get that intimate with Tony then not choose him. I for one do see a strong connection between Mary and Tony and whether they are good together or not is in the eye of the beholder. I obviously love them as a couple and am excited to see where their story goes.

Andorra

I agree, but I think it is intentional.

I'm sure that if JF wanted, the audience would be on the "endgame lover's" side by now even if Mary wouldn't have decided yet.

JF is very well able to build romantic couples and to sell them to the audience. The fact that he hasn't succeeded in seeling one of the ships here, except for a handful fo shippers on each side, shows me that neither will be the endgame man.

I have no idea WHO will, but I'm very convinced it won't be Blake or Gillingham. I think they're just there to give Mary something to do until she is emotionally ready to find a new love and this will be in series 6.

HarshBench

Oh God, Andorra, when you say that it makes me worry that she will pick Tom. Just kill Sybil, make Tom wait around for two-and-a-half seasons until Mary has gone through two other guys and is ready to order him to her bed.

UGH.

No, if it isn't Tony or Blake I want Evelyn.

But I am not so sure we are not meant to want her with one of them in the end. He likes to drag it out, to keep the will they/won't they going because it makes his job easier. Once they're married "happiness is hard to write." He said that.

I think the on-line fandom dislikes Tony but not so much the general public. They don't love him as they did Matthew but they don't need to. The romances are not as good as they were before, but neither is the show IMO. But people keep watching and they will no matter what, at least through S6.

If they wanted to go out on top....well, it's too late for that. So now their only choice is to go out as high as they possibly can at this point and keep up the ratings and profits through the end. Probably S6.

lassothemoon

This is what I've been saying since last season. That's the whole point. Glad to see someone else agrees.

Lauren60

I think you're giving JF too much credit. Would he really waste the better portions of two seasons on a love interest he plans to throw away? I think it's more likely his writing has been lacking where Mary's next love is concerned. He didn't bother himself with character development. He's failed to present an option most can get behind. Now he could chuck it all if he doesn't think it's working but I think he would have done that before S5.

We will see what happens and whoever's got it right can come back and say "I told you so!"

carrie.suze

I wouldn't give JF too much credit either, since what he's writing is basically a glorified soap opera, it's not exactly that clever. Out of the two I've preferred Charles all along, I simply find him more likable than Gillingham, and he seems to bring out the fun side in Mary, like the 'pig' scenes when she really let her hair down and relaxed a little more.

Obviously we'll have to see how it pans out, I won't gloat if it's Charles in the end, promise.

Lauren60

About gloating....if it's Tony I'll try not to but I can't make any promises!!

Andorra

Well, what is he doing with Tom for 2 and a half season now? Bring in Edna, bring in Sarah Bunting and both will be thrown away.

They never were meant as serious love interests, but as distractions and red herrings until the real thing will arrive. Whover that might be.

And I'm more and more convinced he's doing just the same with Tony and Blake. They will keep Mary occupied till the end of the series and then she will declare that she won't settle for less than what she had with Matthew.

Fellows is good in writing romantic couples. He only needed one single episode last year to make Harold/Madeleine a nice, little romance. He has managed to make Baxter/Mosely a nice little romance with barely an effort.

You really think he sucks that much, that he is not able to draw the audience on the side of one suitor for his heroine?? And that he will allow one half of the Mary fans to be disappointed to the point of not watching any more??

I don't think so.

Lauren60

He won't be able to make all Mary fans happy. Some are Mary and Matthew forever end of story. So those fans are not reachable. Otherwise I agree he wants to make the remaining Mary fans happy but perhaps he miscalculated by splitting the audience between Tony, Charles and Evelyn and now he can't recover. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yes and what the heck has he been doing to poor Tom? What was the point of him sleeping with Edna? Is there any chance she'll show up again with a child she claims is his? Probably a topic for the spoilers thread. The Edna thing just seemed so out of place and bazaar.

Andorra

We just have to wait and see. One of is going to be proven right anyway

HarshBench

I have to admit I think JF is being given too much credit. Yes, he is normally good at writing romantic couples with chemistry but he bit off more than he could chew here. With M/M he did an "OTP" romance, but he didn't want to repeat that story. So with Tony and Blake he decided to create a REAL love triangle where the two guys bring different things to the table and she is genuinely torn.

Frankly I think Tony has been acting shady this season but we'll see.

And yeah, I do NOT get what the deal is with Tom. I think he just got lazy about his storyline and put him on the back burner, retreading the "Where Do I Belong?" theme for one-and-a-half seasons now. But that might just have been buying time. He wanted to give him a real love interest but he wanted to stretch out the will they/won't they as always. And if there is only real option (as I think there will be), then he couldn't very well introduce her too early or he'd have to wrap it up too early.

Lauren60

JF could still recover come to think of it. He could make two of the three guys totally unsuitable for Mary. Evelyn gets married and Charles is found to have killed Green. He overheard Mary wants Tony to fire Green but to outdo him Charles kills him. plus Charles hopes that without a valet Tony won't look so darn gorgeous (lithe and supple body? ) and Mary won't be so attracted to him anymore.

lassothemoon

Agreed, I don't think he's being given enough credit. The guy is brilliant imo and the whole show relies on plot twist after plot twist. That's not to say that there are storylines that have gone nowhere, but Mary is his baby and deserves the best ( *cough* Evelyn ).

I think he has plans for Tom too so we're totally in agreement.

northboundtrain

In the post-dinner scene in 502? Mary seemed to me like she wanted to keep talking/sparring. Charles was the one who ended the conversation.


Of course, it's entirely possible that they've had witty conversations and engaging intellectual debates. The problem for me is that JF hasn't ever shown that. In S1, Evelyn took himself out of the running because he said himself that Mary found him boring. Then in S4, JF had numerous chances to show us Evelyn/Mary having fun, witty banter like she's had with Charles, but he didn't.

We also haven't seen any sign that the quality of her correspondence with Evelyn has made her want to marry him.


But isn't Charles actually Evelyn's boss? It's the same field, but Charles probably has more responsibility and probably knows more about the work.

Again, I'm not saying Evelyn is stupid. He's probably quite intelligent. But, again, JF has to show us this. "Show, don't tell" is key in writing.





But she doesn't need to pine for Charles because he's presently involved in her story. Tony and Bates both pointed out that she's been torn between Charles/Tony and that everyone has been waiting for her to make a choice.



I've always believed that it may take Charles removing himself from the equation to get Mary to realize how much he means to her -- after all, she had to lose Matthew before she realized how much she'd messed up, so maybe this will be history repeating itself.

JF could have chosen to go that route with Evelyn -- he could have had Mary wake up and realize that Evelyn was who she wanted. But, as far as we can tell, Evelyn's removed himself from the race and it doesn't appear to bother her. For her, it's still down to just two men: Tony and Charles, and no one else seems to matter.


And, see, I don't think Evelyn's bad either. I just find him boring right now. I could always be convinced, with the right writing, that they make sense.

But, again, for me, the writing's just not there. If it's not Charles, I'd expect it to be a totally new character before I'd expect it to be Evelyn.

But we'll have to see.


I think a large part of the general audience is primarily interested in Mary finding happiness, period. Do I think most of them are violently/obsessively in favor of one man or the other? No. I said this in one of the other threads, but I have relatives who watch this show and can't remember which guy is named Tony and which one is named Charles.

But we're only two episodes into this season, and from what I've seen a lot of people (both online fans and professional reviewers) are suddenly turning on Tony/finding him shady while also warming up to Charles (who seems to be shining more by comparison, to paraphrase Matthew).

So if the tide can start turning with just two episodes, who knows where we'll be by the CS?


But Tom's situation and Mary's situation are radically different.

For one thing, look at how they're promoted: Tony/Mary/Charles get a lot of promo, a lot of attention, with reporters asking various cast members which man Mary will choose. It's one of the biggest stories the show currently has going.

Tom/Edna and Tom/Sarah haven't gotten anywhere near the same level of promotion.

There's also the writing to consider. Tom/Edna was presented from start to finish as a mistake while Tom was still grieving. And Tom looks annoyed by/uncomfortable with Sarah much of the time. Neither of these is being written as a potential love match.

Mary/Tony and Mary/Charles have gotten far more romance. They've gotten more fun, more happiness, more flirting. Whereas Tom never appeared to be serious about Edna, and appears to consider Sarah just a friend, Mary is actually talking about love and marriage with one of these two guys.