[Mignonette]

Hi Alex! I've split replies into sections, cause I know you're mod on so many forums & maybe it's easier than reading one big paragraph?

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) No, Lucrezia didn't seem to upset watching her brother have sex with another woman. Normally you'd think a girl would be disgusted by that.

I said CESAR wasn't upset at Lu watching him having sex. He threatened punishment only to tease her. Threatening to punish her was a very sexual thing to say, especially when he followed up by throwing her onto the ground and lying on top of her. Very sexually dominant, forcing her into submission He did the same dominance/submission thing when he slammed her up against the wall when he said he'd cut out Sfoza's heart. He knew playing this role turned her on & it turned him on too. It's why he was so caught by surprise like a deer in the headlights when she turned the game around and played the dominant role by getting naked & luring him into her bedroom.

But yes, you're right, Lu was definitely NOT upset or disgusted at watching Ces have sex - she was positively gleeful and aroused judging by the flush on her face!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Oh, and I've told Arinna several times that the scene with Cesare and Lucrezia lying on the grass in the courtyard while gazing into each other's eyes was like the scene between Bella and Edward in Twilight.

Yes, except Edward didn't throw Bella onto the ground and lie on top of her. Not normal behavior for a brother to do to his 14 year old sister! Edward was much more romantic with Bella on the grass, whereas Ces's behavior was very sexual and dominant. And why do you think Ces did that to Lu in that moment? Cause he KNEW she was aroused from watching him. They'd played this game often!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Uhhh, I didn't think about the sex scents.

I know you didn't initially, but we've talked about it, do you remember? He'd just had sex, so there's no way Lu wouldn't have noticed how he smelled, especially since his face was so close to hers & his hands were on her face Like I've said, Ces knew exactly what he was doing: arousing his little sister so she would see him as a MAN, not just a brother, and desire him as he desired her.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) You think Cesare knew she was watching him all the time? He seemed to not notice until he heard her outside and began chasing her. OMG, she probably did see him naked through the window, didn't she? So I guess getting naked for him in season 3 was her returning the favor. Oh, and what was Cesare caressing with his eyes?

Hmmm, I wonder..what was she showing him..

Yes, for sure she saw him naked and in an aroused state! If you're a young guy and want your sister to desire you sexually, what better way is there than arousing her by showing off your body & sexual prowess? It's not like he was going to make a move on her, so he had to be creative! And he was only 18 - a mass of testosterone and lust, so he couldn't think straight

No, I don't think he knew she was there until the noise unless he'd caught a glimpse of her at his window, but he was pretty distracted by having sex at the time But he knew that she'd watched him before, so he left the window unlatched hoping she'd do it again. And when he heard the noise, that's why he was certain it was her

How do we know? Because when he heard the bumping noise, he immediately said, "Lucrezia!" He didn't say, "who's there?" or "what was that?" It could've been Gioffre or a cat or ?? No, he KNEW it was her cause she'd done it in the past. It was part of their unspoken game. Incest wasn't something they talked about, so we must always look to subtext (what isn't said, but lies underneath) to understand their behavior with each other.

That's why François & Holly said incest was written "all over NJ's script" - they were referring to subtext.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Yeah, I think you're right about that scene with Alfonso. She did seem disappointed and wasn't really in the mood to "consummate" their marriage because her heart was now compromised and having sex with Alfonso would've been a lie.

Thanks for agreeing with me. Yeah, not only was she not in the mood, but like we've talked about before, when a woman is deeply in love, the thought of another man touching her is repulsive. Unlike how Ces could get it on with Charlotte and have a good ole time while still being in love with Lu, she could've forced herself to have sex with Alf, but definitely wouldn't enjoy it unless she fantasized he was Ces - which is EXACTLY what she did in the consummation scene! I think this is maybe a hard concept for a lot of guys to understand, because they're wired differently? Idk

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Thanks for doing everything in sections.

Yes, I know Ces wasn't upset at Lu for watching him have sex. I know he was teasing her. Yeah, I agree that what he was doing was very sexual in a way, but I still think he tried to convince himself it was still very innocent. Slamming her up against a wall was a bit much, though. It was clear that it turned her on, you're right about that. So yeah, it's only natural that she'd turn the tables on him in her bedroom. And yes, Lucrezia was probably wondering what Cesare's female companion must've been feeling to be making those noises, but she'd find out in due time.

Yes, I know, I was just making the Twilight reference because Arinna liked those books and movies and I thought the similarity was funny. I think I vaguely remembered you mentioning the thing about the sex scent, but I must've forgotten.

Yeah, you have a point about that. I still think it's odd for Cesare to show off his body and sexuality to his sister when she's also the only thing in his life that he feels is innocent and pure, so perhaps he was also in denial. But I think you're right that he didn't know she was there until he heard noise, although Lucrezia did her best to sneak up quietly on him. Kind of like what she did in his bedroom? And yeah, he heard bumping, but he was still surprised later on when Lucrezia snuck into his bedroom and seduced him on her wedding night. Oh, and I know that Francois and Holly could see all the subtext in the script.

You're welcome, Lila. It was easy to agree with you on that subject. I think it was easier for Cesare to at least have sex with Charlotte because even though he didn't love her, he did like her and found her charming, especially the way she handled herself in the French royal court. So she was more like a buddy than a love interest, just a buddy you have sex with. But Lucrezia couldn't be like that with Alfonso, obviously. You're right, she really did have to picture herself with Cesare just to have sex with him, and who knows how many times afterwards she had to do that?

[BL.Arinna_1982]

It was all messed up relationship.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) It was all messed up relationship.

Who, Cesare and Lucrezia?

[Mignonette]

Hi Alex! Thanks for agreeing with me

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Yeah, I agree that what he was doing was very sexual in a way

It wasn't very sexual in a way, Alex, it very sexual in every way!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Yeah, you have a point about that. I still think it's odd for Cesare to show off his body and sexuality to his sister when she's also the only thing in his life that he feels is innocent and pure, so perhaps he was also in denial. I still think he tried to convince himself it was still very innocent.

He definitely tried to convince himself everything was innocent. Lu was pure in his mind & he was invested in keeping her that way, BUT the subconscious is powerful & the heart will have what it wants = massive conflict. The only way he could deal with it was to compartmentalize. He had the Madonna/whore complex to the extreme, because he had the extra burden of incest.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Slamming her up against a wall was a bit much, though. It was clear that it turned her on, you're right about that.

She enjoyed their sex games as much as he did. I loved him slamming her into the wall & didn't think it was too much at all. Neither did Lu And I love when he tried to convince himself of her innocence and she would correct him She was his alter ego, but he didn't fully comprehend that until The Prince. It was so powerful when she asked him, "Is that all I am now brother, a Borgia?"" as she was mixing the poison for Alf, and he replied - not to her, but to himself under his breath: "A professional". He'd just hired a professional, Rufio, to assassinate Alf, so when he acknowledged her as a professional, it was THE turning point in his conflict. In that moment he realized everything he'd done to protect her innocence had been in vain. She was a BORGIA, like him, and it was futile to resist.

Alex, I know you hated Alf's dead body in the bed with them & wanted Ces to romantically carry her off somewhere else, but the scene was genius imo. He kissed her face & neck (smeared with Alf's blood) and they had sex on that bloody bed next to his body He said, "You'll be naked" - cause he was going to undress her and make love to her right there. He was moving down from her neck to her breasts when the scene ended, and she was aroused. Watch the scene and look at his torso lift as he's moving down her neck at the very end.

It showed how far they had fallen into the darkness. They'd killed Alf together, and now that Ces realized she reveled in her darkness as much as she feared it, he was able to fully claim her and make love to her even as she was covered in Alf's blood with his body next to them.

The series started off with them as innocent teens, but the darkness in both of them was there from that first scene. As much as they, especially Ces, fought that darkness, they both actually relished it. He loved being dominate with her, pushing the sexual boundaries, and she loved submitting to him. The game aroused them so much, they finally had no choice but to cross that line.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

I loved that scene!

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Thanks for posting that scene! And you're welcome.

Yeah, it was sexual in every way. But I do know that Cesare did try to keep things innocent with Lucrezia, if only because he wanted her to remain untainted. I think it was after her disastrous marriage to Giovanni Sforza that Cesare realized that her innocence was gone, and the light that once shone in her eyes had gone out. Wow, the Madonna/whore complex, huh? I don't think I've heard anyone else describe it that way. And if I did, I think I may have forgotten.

Oh, so Lu was like Ces' alter ego? That's an interesting take on it. It was like he realized what being a Borgia meant long before she did, but she eventually caught up to him and became his equal. I think that when Cesare whispered the word "professional" when Lucrezia went to poison Alfonso, that was an admission for him. He originally needed a "professional" in the form of Rufio, to replace Micheletto. But when he said that about Lucrezia, you could tell something had changed after that. He no longer had to worry about tarnishing her innocence and he could have her as his worthy other half. Only he was the one now worthy of her since she proved she could be as ruthless as he was.

Yes, I know what you mean, Lila. I do appreciate having Alf's body there for narrative reasons. I just found it unsightly. But that's just me. And yes, I could tell that even with blood on her face and her dead husband next to her, Lu was aroused by Cesare's kisses. They were the dark prince and princess after that moment.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) I think it was after her disastrous marriage to Giovanni Sforza that Cesare realized that her innocence was gone, and the light that once shone in her eyes had gone out. Wow, the Madonna/whore complex, huh? I don't think I've heard anyone else describe it that way. And if I did, I think I may have forgotten. It was like he realized what being a Borgia meant long before she did, but she eventually caught up to him and became his equal. I think that when Cesare whispered the word "professional" when Lucrezia went to poison Alfonso, that was an admission for him. He originally needed a "professional" in the form of Rufio, to replace Micheletto. But when he said that about Lucrezia, you could tell something had changed after that. He no longer had to worry about tarnishing her innocence and he could have her as his worthy other half. Only he was the one now worthy of her since she proved she could be as ruthless as he was. I could tell that even with blood on her face and her dead husband next to her, Lu was aroused by Cesare's kisses. They were the dark prince and princess after that moment.

Hi Alex! I love reading your replies, cause you think so deeply in your analyses! Your masculine perspective makes it a pleasure discussing Lu & Ces with you - your answers always make me think..

I remember when Ces noticed the light had gone from her eyes. He knew something had happened. Seeing her as innocent was his safety net to keep him from acting on his lust. It was only after he saw she was losing that innocence that his conflict came to the surface, causing him to fear losing control.

You can see his conflict on her first wedding night. The music was so sinister, cause he was considering taking her virginity (as we talked about) when he laid her on the bed. If she had awakened, I have no doubt he would've tested the water. You could see the hope in him when she turned her face to his kiss, and then his sigh & disappointment when he realized she was still asleep. When she turned to his kiss in her sleep, it confirmed for him her truest feelings: romantic, not sisterly. Notice the creepy music stops the moment he decides not to wake her. Tho he desperately wanted to, he couldn't take her virginity, cause she was still pure, untouched. An innocent sleeping angel to his lustful devil watching her, desiring her.

Freud said the Madonna/whore conflict is present in every man, cause he needs to see his mother as pure. But at puberty, he's forced to acknowledge his mother as a sexual woman. His need to keep her pure, but the realization that she's not, is what causes the split. Ces' conflict was the same pure vs soiled woman as it related to his incestous feelings. As long as he saw her innocence, he would remain conflicted about his sexual feelings for her.

The taboo of incest soiling her increased his conflict exponentially. It's why she had to make the first sexual move. I loved so much when she let her gown slide down & he said, "Lucrezia, you cannot" and she put his hands on her breasts and said, "but I must". Double meaning = she wanted him so badly that she couldn't help herself & also she knew he'd never make the move, so she must!

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Aww, thanks for saying that! I'm really flattered.

Yeah, when Lu came home to visit during Joffre's wedding is when Cesare noticed that Lucrezia was different, and that's when he asked her if Sforza had been "ungallant," and she chose not to tell him the truth because she knew what Cesare would do if he found out.

Oh, so you really think Cesare considered taking Lu's virginity on her wedding night to Sfoza? I don't know, I still think he saw her as pure and innocent back then, and it wasn't until later on that the sexual tension and innuendo between them really started to grow. I'm not saying that the feeling didn't cross his mind, but I still think it might've been too soon. Unless you agree with that part of the story were Rodrigo had Cesare take Lu's virginity in Mario Puzo's The Family. So yeah, I agree that he really couldn't do that because he still saw her as innocent and pure and wanted her to stay that way for as long as possible, knowing that he felt beyond redemption.

Ah, thanks for the info on Freud. I kinda understand that. I don't think I necessarily fit that type, though. I mean, I don't expect a woman to be a nun, but I don't expect her to be like a porn star either. I actually like alpha females who are strong and soft at the same time. Maybe a little sl*utty.

Oh, do you think the incest taboo was a turn on for Ces? But also an inhibitor that kept him from acting on his desires?

Yep, I definitely liked how Lu had to be the one to be aggressive with Ces in that scene, effectively creating a power shift between the two.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

I think Cesare wanted Lu, but was afraid too act on it.

[PhoenixRising]

I agree, Arinna.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

Buuut she wasn't.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Oh, so you really think Cesare considered taking Lu's virginity on her wedding night to Sfoza? I don't know, I still think he saw her as pure and innocent back then, and it wasn't until later on that the sexual tension and innuendo between them really started to grow. I'm not saying that the feeling didn't cross his mind, but I still think it might've been too soon. Unless you agree with that part of the story were Rodrigo had Cesare take Lu's virginity in Mario Puzo's The Family. So yeah, I agree that he really couldn't do that because he still saw her as innocent and pure and wanted her to stay that way for as long as possible, knowing that he felt beyond redemption. Oh, do you think the incest taboo was a turn on for Ces? But also an inhibitor that kept him from acting on his desires?

Hi Alex! Hi Arinna!

The entire first scene of them was sexual, but yeah, the tension kept building until season 3. For Ces to act on his sexual desire would've been too soon. The story arc would've crescendoed too early. But just because he didn't take her virginity doesn't mean he didn't seriously consider it.

So yes, he considered taking her virginity that night, but like you said, Alex, he couldn't act on that wish, cause he saw her as pure and innocent. He couldn't soil her with incest. But I believe what really stopped him was his fear of messing up their perfect relationship by letting her know he wanted her virginity. He had no idea how she'd react, so wasn't willing to take the risk.

Maybe NJ got the idea from "The Family". Not that weird part of Rodrigo instigating Ces taking Lu's virginity, but the fact that Ces wanted to.

When analyzing the scene of Ces carrying her to bed on her wedding night, ask yourself why did he do that? What did he want? Brothers don't carry their sisters to bed on their wedding nights - husbands do! What do husbands do to their wives on the wedding night? And wives were expected to be virgins, right? And why was the music so ominous? Why would ominous music play if Ces was just innocently feeling sad that his little sister was now married & leaving him? It's obvious. I didn't know if Ces took her virginity until the next episode when Sforza raped her, cause the scene cut to him being back at the party. It was left as a cliffhanger - did he take her or let her sleep? Alex, I cannot convince you if you still don't see it

Yes, I believe the incest taboo was a turn-on for Ces. In psychology, there's a term for it: the lure of the forbidden. The forbidden is so enticing became of its very nature.

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila!

Today's the first day of my vacation! But I'm also not feeling that well today, so I'm gonna answer more thoroughly tomorrow, okay? I'm sorry, I've just felt really crummy today, but I promise I'll reply more tomorrow.


Yes, I do agree that the show had to take its time with Ces and Lu and develop their love story slowly. Who knows what he was thinking at the time? He might've had the thought flash through his mind, but then decided to ignore it because she was still too young and innocent, and they weren't at that point yet where they were equals.

I don't know if NJ even read The Family. He certainly did take inspiration from Puzo's other novel, The Godfather. But if he did read The Family, I don't know why he'd he hesitant to do the incest storyline.

Well, I think that Ces carried Lu to her bed because he wanted to be the hero of her story. He wanted to be the man that she always turned to for love and safety, even though at the time he couldn't take that role too far, but that's probably why their relationship morphed into something romantic. And yes, I did notice the music, so you don't have to convince me, Lila. Oh, and I do think that the forbidden aspect of it also appealed to him. He was already indulging in that stuff by having an affair with a married woman like Ursula, and later getting romantic with his own enemy, Caterina Sforza.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Well, I think that Ces carried Lu to her bed because he wanted to be the hero of her story. He wanted to be the man that she always turned to for love and safety, even though at the time he couldn't take that role too far, but that's probably why their relationship morphed into something romantic. And yes, I did notice the music, so you don't have to convince me, Lila. Oh, and I do think that the forbidden aspect of it also appealed to him. He was already indulging in that stuff by having an affair with a married woman like Ursula, and later getting romantic with his own enemy, Caterina Sforza.

Awww Alex, I'm sorry you didn't feel well on your first day of vacation. I hope you're feeling better tomorrow.

Yes, his affair with a married woman, blaspheming God, and killing her husband all fed into his need to indulge his darkness. He resonated with that amoral, dangerous side of himself. He told Ursula who he was when she came to him at the confessional: "those who know me know that I do not forget such things" (her husband's insult) - revealing his obsessive and vengeful nature. "He is a jealous God" - a projection of his own jealousy and possessiveness.

Uhhhh he was never "romantic" with Caterina Flowers, dates, sweet nothings whispered in her ear? Noooo. Having sex with her was a conquest & a move on a chessboard. He wasn't romantic with Ursula either. He was infatuated with her, but their sex scene wasn't romantic. It was just sexual and pretty base, like when he lifted the sheet & peeked at her breasts, smiling lewdly and commenting on their beauty. He never did or said anything like that to Lu. And Charlotte was like a *******-buddy. No, he was only romantic with Lu.

Ces needing to be her hero was so true. That need conflicted with his obsessive desire to possess her body and soul & this was his ENTIRE delimma throughout the series! God vs the devil. He had already been her hero that night when he brought Vanozza to the wedding feast, defying his father in front of everyone - all for Lu. Him carrying her AWAY from Sforza and TO the marriage bed was the dark side of his conflict revealing itself. He didn't just want to have sex with her; he wanted to POSSESS her, as in being her first lover, as in "Mine". How many times did we see this conflict in his anguish & in his ambivalent actions?

Alex, I think carrying her to bed was the opposite of being her hero. His love for her had a noble side (her hero), but also a very dark side that went much deeper than lust & incest. "Anyone who gets in the way of your happiness will meet my wrath", a sentiment many men would feel for a woman they love, but Ces murdered 4 men to protect her, get revenge for her, or to possess her: Sforza, Juan, King Ferdinand (technically Micheletto, but as Ces' agent), & Alf. The dark side of his love for her showed itself in the very first scene & was the essence of the very last scene.

I think the point the writers were making was that although the sibs were still (mostly) innocent at 14 & 18, their innate darkness was already evident. They didn't become dark because of circumstances. Circumstances merely brought to the surface the darkness that was already within them.