IceKat055

Yes, even though I was hoping they'd drag it out 'til episode 3 or even 4, this could well be the creek fight (since they're back over water), and Jaime pretending to drop down in exhaustion, forcing Brienne to haul him back to his feet, would give him a chance to get a hand on her sword. Good call Bo! You may have nailed it!

(And Jaime getting a sword could always be their episode "cliffhanger" - - which would leave the actual fight for ep 3. )

Quote from that article: Both Christie and Coster-Waldau ploughed on through their four takes, with grass mounds, scattered leaves and ropes among their props. With a hair dryer on standby for Coster-Waldau, not even an ever-so-slight wardrobe malfunction with his tarnished robe could dampen their spirits.

"wardrobe malfunction", now THAT, I want to hear about!

"too zealous" just does not compute. I read the books. I ship based on what George gives me.

Currawong

Maybe we keep that idea for the title of our next thread? "J/B - the Ship that was launched by GRRM himself" or something along those lines?

alors

Excellent point. Although she took out unsuspecting, unprepared men in that scene; Jaime will be up for it <cough> when he does get a sword. Of course, that raises the question of since Cleos is not with them, where does he get one? And of course....what episode will he lose the hand in?

ohhhhhhhh it's so good to be in my own living room surfing J/B porn i mean um....yeah.

IceKat055

For the next thread title, I nominate ""He’s never encountered anyone like this; she keeps surprising him at every turn" B.Cogman" - - providing another fabulous quote doesn't come along in the meantime.


It'd be easy enough for Jaime to snatch a sword if they come across a few dead bodies - - Brienne will be investigating, and he'll be quick as a cat about it.

And I still think "and Jaime screamed" would be the perfect S3 cliffhanger for him, but they'll probably do it sooner...around episode 4 or 5 maybe? If they do that, we may get the bear pit this season. And "I dreamed of you" would also be a pretty damn kickass S3 cliffhanger!

alors

I think it will be earlier on too; I suspect the Red Wedding might be the S3 cliffhanger. I wish HBO would allocate more budget so they could shoot 12-13 episodes/season. This 10-episode thing sucks. MAN I hope "I dreamed of you" makes it into this season.

"I don't wanna work I just want to bang on the J/B OTP all day..."

IceKat055

The RW and "dreamed of you" seem to pretty much coincide half-way through ASoS, and since they're splitting this book up into 2 seasons, I'm hoping that the RW is the season finale cliffhanger, and the bear pit is the J/B cliffhanger (maybe in episode 9.)

But where to fit the Purple Wedding in? Maybe that'll be episode 7, since George is writing that one?

So say we all!

Currawong

It's hard to say, because we know from comments by the two producers that they are going to move things around if necessary. I gather that will particularly be the case with AFFC and ADWD, here they intend to 're-integrate' the storylines, but you never know what may happen with ASOS, and it won't necesasrily take up the whole of 2 seasons either - some of AFFC is more than likely going to come into Season 4.

I want to know how they are going to show Jaime's dream on the weirwood stump, before he rides back for his wench. So far they have avoided flashbacks because backstory has been worked into extra scenes (like that one with Ned and Jaime in Season 1 about mad Aerys and also the Tywin/ Arya ones including the bit about the dragons and Harrenhal), but the only dream type stuff they have shown is in the House of the Undying.

Well, they had better NOT omit Jaime's dream, because it is SO important to the J/B story, plus of course it gives more important background about the Kingsguard, Ser Arthur Dayne and the others. Jaime riding back to rescue Brienne really won't make sense without it

alors

so i was looking at this link tonight Caveat Lector and pondering the nature of the bond/relationship between jaime and brienne.

relevant excerpt:
I suppose I’d agree that the relationship between Brienne and Jaime feels a little one-sided to me right now: Jaime has this ****ing complicated history with Cersei, which has defined his entire life, so I see in him more the potential to develop romantic feelings for Brienne. However, such a devlopment would not come out of the blue since his attitude towards Brienne is not quite 100% platonic, either . Brienne, however, has blatantly and obviously fallen for him - and fallen hard.

Has anyone read that character essay about Brienne on Tower of the Hand, which insists that she isn’t in love with Jaime? If the author had said that they were indifferent to this part of her characterization or were averse to these emotions or whatever, fine. But that was a bit hilarious. I had started wondering whether we had read different copies of A Feast for Crows.

Trololol I was thinking of ToH’s essay too, and had a good laugh while I did because that whole list was so ridiculous. Yeah, I agree that Jaime is in a complicated place emotionally wrt his feelings for Cersei, as opposed to Brienne’s pretty blatant crush, but I think we can at least all agree that at the end of their road trip where they went through a few life changing experiences (lol, just another regular day in Westeros), they have become each other’s one true friend? And friendship is perhaps the rarest currency in Westeros. This alone validates their relationship as pretty damn significant to me, even putting my shipping goggles aside for a moment.

and what i'm wondering is, so yeah, i can see what with all the obsessing brienne does over jaime that she's clearly gaga for him. and he seems to be moving along a bit more slowly (as has been noted). and so (again) what i'm wondering is, do you think at any point it occurs to jaime that just maybe brienne is crushing out on him? as we know, despite his swagger and stunning good looks he's a bit stunted in the reading-chicks-who-might-be-into-you groove skill set. even so, don't most guys his age who look like that have sort of a clue abt things like this? like noticing when some chick is checking them out? i just wonder if it has even remotely entered his head as a possibility. and if so, what he really honestly thinks abt it.

IceKat055

They showed Bran's 3-eyed crow dream in S1, and they showed Sansa having a nightmare in S2 (after she was almost raped), so they're not totally opposed to showing dream sequences. And in the case of Jaime's weirwood dream - - they really can't NOT include it, can they? I mean, they wouldn't. It's chock full of significance, not only illustrating Brienne's importance in his life, but also how he is shifting away from his family. Cersei and Tywin both abandon him in the dream, and Brienne stays by his side; it's her sword that lights the dark that surrounds him.

Maybe we should start one of those online petition thingys, just in case.

alors

i knew this was bound to happen if i kept reading fanfic.

i'm starting to get confused abt what happens in canon and what happens in fanfic. mostly just little things, details, when things happen, did they happen, "did so-and-so tell so-and-so this-and-such? when did that happen?"

this is not good.

Currawong

I think it's very complicated for both of them, because effectively they are each UNlearning their previous infatuations.

Jaime of course is early 30s and has had years of single minded infatuation / devotion to Cersei - and he IS single minded and faithful, in contrast to many other Westeros married men who have bastards! - but it becomes obvious that Cersei doesn't share this degree of faithfulness. So he's dealing not just with the loss of his hand and finding out 'who' he is himself, but also the loss of what he thought was his one true love. Her cruelty in scorning his maimed state must have been a terrible blow, seeing he came back to KL and all he really wanted was to be with her and have some comfort from her.

Brienne is much younger, but has had her share of hurts and of course, is now unlearning her girlish infatuation with Renly. She was such a gentle and innocent person that I'm not sure whether she realised he was gay, but it was obvious that her adoration for him was all one way. Maybe it is lucky he is dead, because it was perhaps easier for her to cope with his death than finding out (which she would have) that he had thought her absurd as a warrior woman. He too was one of those falsely polite knights, who didn't accept her for what she was.

She's certainly fallen hard for Jaime, but interestingly, she's done so even though she's aware of his faults. Some fans in online forums hate Jaime and say they 'could never forgive him' because of Bran, yet it's notable that the very gentle Brienne is not that way at all. She knows about Bran, she knows about the incest, she's experienced Jaime's cruel jests for herself, yet she's still obviously falling for him. So it's not a 'blind' infatuation as it was with Renly: it's something more, and its also not a simple 'good girl saves bad boy' situation.

I definitely agree that simple friendship is often in short supply in Westeros, but certainly these two seem to be well on the way to becoming good friends and fellow warriors / comrades. IMHO, friendship, mutual support and acceptance is what Jaime and Brienne each desperately need in their respective emotional states, and I hope they find it. I think friendship would help them both heal, and would be a very good basis for something romantic later on. But if Jaime remains in the Kingsguard, I could see him remaining faithful to that, yet at the same time retaining a deep and wonderful friendship with Brienne.


ETA: This is a great article on Brienne and her character - think I've linked to it before, but it was moved. http://merovingians.tumblr.com/post/...ienne-of-tarth Oh yes, and this is another one I'd found and bookmarked - again, great support for Brienne. http://leannerudy.com/2011/08/07/in-...maid-of-tarth/

ABoleyn1230

Oh my, where do I start? I feel a rant coming.

I have not heard of the TotH post but am pretty sure I don't want to read it. It's funny how some people can interpret the chapters and it's so completely obvious, but others don't see it at all.

So their feelings for each other are pretty "meh"?

Come on now. That's not even scratching the surface of their feelings. They go way deeper.

Even though Jaime is older, I feel as though his romantic feelings are also immature in that he has experienced only that intense, do-anything-for-you, obsessive love. A lot of people experience that early in life and then move on to mature relationships. Jaime has only had that (Cersei), and it crumbled away because of his growing independence from her, and her turning her back on him. I still believe that despite their dislike of each other, there was a spark of chemistry between them fairly early on.

Brienne's feelings are emotionally deep but she is still very wary of them (trying to deny them, think of Renly). She isn't lying around doodling her name and Jaime's with hearts around it, nor merely wanting his body. She is very uncomfortable about the sexual and romantic aspects. I think that is why the 'crush' label I see tossed around often bothers me: it trivializes her feelings as something flighty or passing, where people should feel sorry for her or think she is cute. She believes in Jaime, and that is something he desperately needs right now. Likewise, he sees past her appearance, which is what she needs. Between them there is trust, belief, honesty, admiration, respect... there is a lot of substance to their relationship.

I personally don't think Jaime would be aware of Brienne's feelings yet, because those feelings have grown so much while they are apart. Except for that moment in ADWD, their last meeting was her thinking he would endanger Sansa for his sister's sake, and he gets angry that she would believe that of him. That's why I think in TWOW, Jaime will:

All of these emotions are going to come out.

As far as what to expect in S3, In the last two seasons, the penultimate episode has been 9 (Ned, Blackwater) with the reaction in the finale. I can see the RW happening late in episode 9. I would expect the bear pit to happen around the same time. I'm guessing the Purple Wedding will be early S4, because

Right before SDCC, EW posted that S3 would entail: "A reluctant betrothal. A devastating imprisonment. A ferocious army. A debated sacrifice. A spy in love. An undead lord. An unexpected wedding."
They forgot "A roll in the creek. A steamy bath. An angry bear."

I wish one could earn a living doing this. If only "shipping business" didn't mean FedEx and UPS, I'd be a rich lady. Next week I am on 'staycation' and hoping to finish up writing my fic

Currawong

Rant away, dear!! We're listening

Yes, and Yes.

I think the fact that she does believe in him was what really got through to Jaime. When he told her the truth about what happened with Aerys, he is obviously completely surprised that she doesn't react with disbelief or scorn - she actually listened to him, believed his story and apparently understood why he did what he did. I think that was a totally new experience for Jaime, who is so used to being condemned out of hand by everyone. True, he's not gone out of his way to tell the truth, but it seems that most people wouldn't want to hear the truth anyway. He broke his KG oath, that is all people are interested in, not the complexities of why he did so.

When Brienne, with all her own honour and stubbornness, gets him through the loss of his hand and then goes further and believes in him as a person - that's a powerful experience for Jaime, and something that I think grows on him subconsciously as he works through the 'loss' of his father, brother and sister.

YAY! *does happy dance*

alors

I agree with Bo where she points out that what Jaime feels is intense but it's not a mature kind of love. It's the all-consuming passion that usually is so intense that it is unsustainable on a daily basis in real life. Somehow he's managed to carry a torch for 20-odd years, but if the circumstances were changed that kept them apart and the angsty drama were resolved, I suspect at some point it would flame down (not necessarily out, but maybe more of a low simmer), just because it's completely exhausting to be that obsessed.

Meanwhile, he has the outlook of a true romantic in the sense that he links the emotional aspects of the relationship inextricably with the physical aspects of the relationship, whereas Cersei is much more of a man about her views of sex vs. love--two separate things. In the words of the _Sex and the City_ gals, "why can't a woman have sex more like a man?"--but it's flip-flopped here (GRRM likes to turn these tropes on their heads). I get the sense in AFfC that he is starting to de-link these to some extent in his head (cf. his Pia-induced stiffie) and that that is sort of novel to him, but he doesn't freak out or feel guilty about it--which is good. It's normal. Finally.

And this, to me, is the definition of mature love. To be loved and accepted despite--or even because of--your failings and faults. The whole failure to differentiate between the "I hate Jaime" vs. "I hate Jaime's actions" dichotomy I find very simplistic and frankly, disappointing. One would think the average fan would be more sophisticated in their outlook, but apparently not. The sign of a mature individual/outlook and a mature relationship, IMO, is the ability to accept the person but not necessarily their actions--a very Christian outlook (disclaimer: I am not a Xtian--not pushing any particular agenda). And also the ability to forgive--what seems fairly clear to me, but not to those who say "I can't forgive his actions"--is that forgiveness is about making peace within yourself, letting go of your own hate/anger/resentment, and that the perpetrator might also find grace is merely a by-product.

And as I've stated before, where this is going might not necessarily culminate in a let's-get-it-ON moment--the consummation of this relationship might be symbolic, it might never manifest in a tangible exchange of bodily fluids--and that's ok. It might not even be words that are spoken. These two could be--and I think they truly are--each other's soulmates, however that plays out.

Currawong

Yes, yes, and YES to your post!

I was quite surprised to read the first Jaime POV chapter in ASOS because I realised that he really does have a true romantic streak in him. That part where he lies back in the boat and feels the joy of the sunshine and the wind in his hair, and looks at the world around him - the way he sees things is almost poetic, and quite unexpected. We get the same sort of thing in his descriptions when he leaves KL in AFFC to go and mop up in the Riverlands. I get the feeling that this side of him has been long-buried, perhaps because Cersei has never wanted him to show that aspect, perhaps because of his experiences under Aerys's reign. Perhaps in a way because in Westeros it's "unmanly" to be poetic and sensitive, and we can't have the Kingslayer like that!

Someone a while back wondered if Brienne would ever sing for Jaime, because we know she loves singing yet regrets that she's never done so for her father. I think that such a simple thing would be a lovely touch between them: I could see him even joining in after a while with his best 'singing in the bath' voice, LOL, though it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Jaime does have quite a good voice

I think many online fans are very young, both in age and in maturity / emotions, and simply have not developed that sort of understanding. Jaime Lannister has certainly done bad things (Bran, for example) but that of itself doesn't make him a bad person.

I think this is one of the things that Jaime himself feels so deeply angry about: that in Westeros he's being judged as an entire person by one single action (killing Aerys), and nobody has ever bothered to ask "why?" or to separate the man himself from the action. Can a good man do bad things? Of course. Can a good man do a bad thing for a very good and honourable reason? Yes again, but no-one wants to go there, and he stands condemned with s**t for honour because of it. Only the 'guileless' Brienne seems to have had the maturity to look at the man himself and not the action.

And for some of us, that would be more than enough, and would be very beautiful. Even if Jaime remains in the KG, and Brienne goes back to Tarth and marries someone else , they would each have experienced a relationship where they were loved and valued for themselves.