Fercita

Well, Leonard did go all the way over himself to make an emphasis that it was not a date. And instead of mentioning it because of some sort of regret he just did it because he doesn't have to oblige Penny. I don't think any girl would like that. If a guy told me all the things he agreed just to have sex, I really wouldn't be too much appreciative of him. So yes guys are guys, but the dialogue is very, very clear and the writers didn't make it to be anything else. And really, they are supposed to be just friends, if I have a friend who I'm hanging out with and they meet someone they like, even better, I could even help him because he is my friend, get to talk to them even, be part of the conversation, there is no way Leonard could be the third wheel because the conversation didn't imply something or a more romantic nature. Penny didn't ditch him, Leonard chose to be ditched. And if she actually did intend to "ditch" him, then Leonard could consider what he said to make her react that way. She wasn't even mad when she got close to him after that guy went away until Leonard told her in that tone that she could still talk to whatever his name was.

To take it as seriously as they did just shows resentment that has no background whatsoever. Maybe there could be the thing you are addressing, about feelings still lingering there, but honestly, to antagonize each other?

I never said Penny wasn't at fault, hence why I mentioned "them being mean to one another". But if you are rubbing in a girls' face why you say yes just to get into her pants, I wouldn't be surprised Penny reacted to that, it's not about their relationship, but about the attitude he had towards her and the consequence of that. I didn't mind him picking the movie and making her pay her own ticket, I did mind him saying why things weren't like that when they went out. She is a hothead, she could have handled it better, yes. But both didn't and that's it. They are both at fault, I never said otherwise.

Also, how come you didn't blink about (before it was cleared out) Raj sleeping with her in Leonard's bed, but now that she flirts with a cute guy in a non-date, you do blink? She is single, you say. She is just Leonard's friend, so why not talk to a guy? It wasn't like she was going to hook up with him in Leonard's bed, or that the guy was a good friend of his.

carl1970

Fercita, my response was to Leonard being labeled a jerk. Like you said they were both mean to each other so why is he a jerk? Why call him that?

Would we agree that Sheldon was acting like a jerk in last week's episode when he yelled at Leonard because Penny and Bernadette went wedding dress shopping without Amy? Leonard had nothing to do with that but that didn't stop Sheldon from yelling at him.

I just wonder how Penny would have reacted if Leonard had ditched her to talk with another woman. Some how I think she would have had a problem with that.

WeBuiltThePyramids

Yeah, I mean repeating "it's not a date" isn't really being a jerk-it wasn't a date, she said so herself. And it's not like he was saying it every five seconds. It was "I'm paying for my movie, and it's not a date so you pay for yours," or "I'm getting fries, if you want some I'll get them for you, but you pay for them because it's not a date." Take away the genders here-if my friend said "hey, wanna go to a movie?" I'd expect to pay for myself, or they might offer to pay since they asked me, but I'd never assume that I was paying. Just because he's a guy, I feel that Penny was expecting him to keep doing everything for her, and he was clear that no, it wasn't a date, they were just two friends hanging out.

LostInTime

Yeah I don't get how that made him a jerk or what was even wrong with that
if he didn't Penny was just going to let him pay for the movie, eat his fries, etc...

and Yes of course when they were a couple he did some things he didn't want to because he knew that if he didn't and they fought Penny would not have been in the mood for sex. but that is not what their 'relationship' was all about.. it was just that he didn't want her to be mad ( even if he didn't know if she would, like we saw she actually got turned on by him sticking up for himself)

and YES Women and Men both do that equally in relationships
Take it from me I am well into my 40's and have had a lot of different relationships with men, I also knew that if I wanted to get my way for a movie or something I would be extra(grateful) in the bedroom, (or the living room, the car, the kitchen.... )
most learn this as we grow up.. it is not a bg deal. I thought it was when I was in my teens and probably early 20's then realized as I got older, not to take that kind of thing too seriously. sometimes we just need to lighten up a bit

WeBuiltThePyramids

That was a bit surprising to me, but I definitely loved that.

Sursonica

Well it is two different things here. One thing is to be single and do something like what she did with Raj (that to me, was wrong anyway and yet a lot of people still took it on Leonard for not getting angry with her) and another is to go out with someone and ditch the person just because you met someone cute. TBH I would get pissed even if I was out with my sister for example and she would ditch me in the middle of the night. Regardless which is your status with the other person doing that is just rude.

I guess my point is that both Leonard & Penny have made mistakes and yet somehow, he is the only one who is usually judged on everything. If he doesn't get mad "he doesn't have a backbone" but if he does stand up for himself "he's a jerk". I know he's not everyone's favourite (even in my case, he's very far from being my favourite) but the thing is, if we are going to be judging and analyzing Leonard & Penny relationship it's IMO fair only to analyze both of them through the same standards, otherwise, it just ends up being some sort of character bashing.

WeBuiltThePyramids

I agree. And if he backs down people say he has no backbone, and if he stands up for himself he's a "jerk" an "ass" a "sack" a "whiner," and whatever else he's been called, then I'd like to ask what the heck he is supposed to do-just not interact with people? It seems really unfair to me. I really don't know what he's supposed to do to make people happy.

Pomita

What I get from discussions like the one above is that some fans of TBBT don't seem to like Leonard much. That's surprising to me, because I think it would be hard for me to like the show if I didn't like him - he's such a central character.

Somehow I hardly ever find the things he says or does offensive (whether 'whiny' or 'jerky'), because he's so understated with it all - there's something low-key and oddly comforting about his personality, and it provides a good counterpoint to the high-strung intensity of Sheldon. Also, I think he's been nice to Penny (in many ways) much more often than the times he behaved rudely with her. Even the rudeness was usually a reaction to something Penny did, i.e. the fault was on both sides.

geoizz545

I loved the episode! Mainly because I missed the Leonard/Penny interaction.

I have no idea how can someone put all the blame to Leonard for what happened to their non-date. Someone even commented that Penny didn't ditch him, when she said so herself, when she came to him while he was talking to Laura. She said "Sorry, I ditched you." And not only she ditched him, but she was the one who started the insults when they were talking to Laura. So why the blame is on Leonard? The blame is on both of them and anything else is just pure dislike of a certain character.

Anyways, I loved their non-date, especially the end in the hallway. Maybe if Leonard was strong enough to keep his cocky attitude for another minute, he would get laid

Sheldon's storyline was funny, but mostly I loved Ammy's jealousy line. "Guess you gotta have hollow bones to get some sugar around here."

Once again Raj had very limited screen time and lines. After the 4th episode that was Raj-centric, he hasn't got any decent line or time, have you noticed?

Now, after reading the summary of the next episode, I'm on the edge of my seat to see what it means.

Rockyele

We really need Raj to take the central spot. Hope after episode 10 he will get one good storyline. An adventure involving just the four guys would be nice too (the girls had already had their times for themselves)

Oh, and geoizz545, your icon is love

DrSnobgrass

Penny annoys me sometimes. Whether you're on a date or not, ditching the person you're with is not cool. She ditches Leonard and only comes back to him after her guy leaves and ruins his potential chances with another woman? It annoyed the hell out of me. It's even worse because going out was her idea. I don't really blame Leonard for whatever he said to what's her name, it was Laura? Lol. Although he shouldn't have done that knowing Penny has been insecure about her intelligence in the past. Well that aside, I loved their plot. Whether friends or lovers, Leonard and Penny are always great together. Hopefully Leonard can hold onto to that backbone.

Sheldon and the bird was amusing. I think he first mentioned being afraid of girls to that little girl in The Friendship Algorithm? Glad he finally got over it! Birds are cool. Especially pigeons.

Fercita

Well, I sometimes struggle to not let my on and off dislike of Leonard shadow my perception of him (I still found him adorable in some scenes this episode), I'm judging them equally. Yes, Penny could have handled it better, and Leonard could have done so too. I'm not saying he was a jerk to make her pay for her own things, if anything I already said that could be the thing the redeemed the disaster I thought was their previous relationship, I like men with a backbone and I still think that was awesome of Leonard, but when you rub in girl's face why you say yes to her to get into her pants, well I'm not justifying Penny but I can see why she might have reacted to that. And she didn't ditch him, it's not like she went away and let him there, but if she did it with full intention to also rub it in his face, then he could have handled it better, they both didn't. It started to be a vicious cycle fed by both. He stood there like the victim instead of turning tables and make himself a place in the conversation, stand firm to say "Ok, this is not a date but that doesn't mean you will do this".

I still say Penny didn't ditch him (though I'm trying to see this from both views, hence me saying that if she did, Leonard could have done something), there is nothing wrong in talking to another guy, she could have done much better though, like introduce Leonard and have them three talk, I understand she didn't do well there AT ALL, but just like she didn't, neither did he. They both made mistakes. And I don't have a problem with Leonard being a jerk, in fact I would say it's quite a delicious contrast on his character, but I don't like writers saying -through someone- that he is nice when he really isn't. "They say but don't show".

Or more like maybe he is nice but, like this article says:

Marcia Sirota: The Difference Between Being Nice and Being Kind

I find this to describe Leonard perfectly. Hope you may read it.

LostInTime

I know, it is strange at how many don't like Leonard,
I can't think of one person on the show that I hate, like some Hate Leonard.. but that is just me,
everyone has their own opinions, you know opinions are like A**holes, everyone has one even if it stinks ( that was my Mom's favorite saying )

I forgot about that episode. I knew he mentioned birds before but couldn't place it, thanks

Sursonica

Well, Penny herself said she ditched him.. she said "Sorry for ditching you" when he went back to him while he was talking to Laura. In my case, that's why I say she ditched him, Penny said so herself.

Regarding Leonard, well, opinions on the characters are always subjective, and based on likes and dislikes, but Leonard gets a lot of judging not just with this episode but with pretty much every word he says, like he is supposed to be perfect or something just because he is the "romantic lead", and that is not such. It has never been stated that Leonard should be perfect yet he is always and constantly put to exhaustive scrutiny on his every single action, while other characters simply don't get any of that, regardless of how they act.

I do think that no-one has been nicer to Penny than Leonard, to be honest... Well, maybe Amy, but Amy is Penny's bestie and biggest fan

I also don't take comments about he letting Penny getting her way to get sex so literally. The sex reference was to male a joke, but in every relationship you do have to accept things to do with another person even if you don't really like it. That's how relationships work, it's about sharing and you don't always get to share things you both like. And if you think about it, Penny did too, like when she played Mystic Warlords of Ka'a.. she was playing with the guys but she wasn't really enjoying it, she was finding it quite boring actually, but she did it anyway, since she knew Leonard liked it.

And really, the poor guy had Beverly Hofstadter as his mom, the guy turned up pretty good considering that!

Fercita

Hmm, you make a good point, you are absolutely right, I should have seen the episode again.

Well, I tell you, it's not exactly about him being perfect or not, but the writers try to make him look like someone he really isn't. Yes, he is not going to be perfect and people get that, but the pretense of his character and the reality of it might be annoying and tiring for some.

Like I tell you, just because Bernadette says he is nice or because Penny thinks so doesn't mean he actually is, or that other people will think it. And viewers base themselves off of that. The writers themselves put up expectations about him and he he doesn't meet them, people is going to be like "So? Wasn't he supposed to be...the hell?" It's about this show of "Say, but actually show" That's why it's so easy for many to grow to judge his every move, because they all say something he really isn't.

I'm not saying to judge him that way is acceptable or justifiable, but it is understandable.