Night Nymph

Arista - I haven't watched Guiding Light in years and years (probably 18 or so), but it is interesting that they have gone with this type of story - though as you say half-cousins is not really all that scandolous. I'm surprised though that you think that they won't continue with the realationship, considering how "scandolous" many soaps are. Maybe I've just been corrupted by Passions (see my post on the first page) where even half brother and sister had a relationship (including a baby) and the brother is still in love and hoping to rekindle the relationship. They fortunately nipped the potential accidental father/daughter relationship in the bud before it went past kissing. Now there's a soap with little (or no) shame.

*Arista*

I found your post on "Passions" very interesting, Night Nymph. I had heard about that story when it first began to unfold, but hadn't heard that it was in a way still continuing. I'm really surprised to hear that the brother is still hoping to pursue a relationship...What is the fan reaction to that?

I honestly don't know what to think of what GL is doing with my couple at this point. Yesterday they had him catch her in his arms and the two of them shared this dazzling moment of eye sex that you just do NOT come across every day. It's such a shame to see that kind of chemistry go to waste. There's still sexual innuendo in so much of what he says to her. But some of the audience has been adamant that this relationship is disgusting and they want the two away from each other. There's a cult following for Jammy and we try to be vocal, but I'm not sure how much of the general audience is okay with them. The funny thing is that practically everyone sees their chemistry. It's just a matter of whether people say "Hell yeah, let's see some more of that!" or think "Nasty! They're related!". The people that are bothered by Jammy seem to take the stance that cousins have a relationship similar to siblings, so it's gross to see that violated. Even when someone points out to them that these two did not grow up with those kind of feelings for one another, most of them still insist that it's "icky" and don't want to carry the discussion any further. And the fact that they are only half-cousins doesn't seem to make many people okay with it. It seems like pretty much everyone has conveniently forgotten that point, as often happens with soaps.

It's interesting, because right around the time the show aired their love scene, the executive producer came out with a statement that the show recognized that relationships between cousins is not acceptable for many of their viewing audience, but that it is not seen as a problem in many parts of the world, and even by many in this country. I almost got the vibe that they were defending cousin love. The actors also discussed in interviews how many cousins get married every year. The difference between "Passions" and GL is that I think GL would want to be responsible with the story and not just do it for the shock value. And considering their ratings at this point, I'm not sure that they feel they can afford to scare off any more of their audience. I'm sure the story could be told beautifully, but it would take a lot of commitment and motivation on their part. I'm not sure whether they have the will to go there right now.

Crossbow

Marriage between cousins IS pretty normal, even in the US. These days I think you have to get a blood test to make sure you don't have too many genes in common, but up until, say, the mid-20th-century, it was a common practice.

stoptheqtip

I'm pretty sure it's outlawed in the UK. Which, to me, is a good thing, because incest is *creepy*. I don't find step-sibling incest all that wrong, except if they think of each other as brother and sister. In that case, it's the same as sibling incest. Because if you have grown up with a person, percieve them as a sibling, and have parents that are married, and you still are attracted to your step-sibling? That's wrong. I believe you can love a step-sibling as much as a blood-relative.

But blood-relations ick me out the most. I read about a case where a mother had sex with her son, and got jailed for a year. What if she had gotten pregnant? Would her baby be genetically deformed? Would it survive to term? She said, while comforting him 'she got caught up in the moment' does she have no restraint at all?! 'Getting caught up in the moment' is bad enough, but with your child? It's just plain immoral.

I'm so sorry for you, Gabrielle. I hope someday you will learn that love can be a wonderful thing.

marapfhile

Incest has been around for quite awhile in some communities, but I think it's HP twincest that really "popularized" it, for lack of a better word. The oldest incest fanfic I can think of at the moment is a Star Trek: The Next Generation story pairing Wesley Crusher with his mom, Beverley, and that was written in the mid nineties. I have a feeling every fandom that includes related people will have incest stories written about it (Buffy/Dawn and even Buffy/Joyce stories exist), but I've never seen them in the same quantity or "out in the open"-ness as I am now with the twincest stuff.

BTW, does anyone know if there's much Charmed fic dealing with incest? I'm just now getting into the show, and the sisters are just crying out to be slashed together.

*Arista*

Yup, the ban on marriage between cousins is a relatively new development in human history, and is not as widespread as many Americans may think...Or other members of Western culture, for that matter...

Hate to break it to you, but:

1. As defined by British law, sex between cousins is not considered "incest". (British Law - Sexual Offences)

2. First cousins can marry legally in the U.K. (United Kingdom Marriage License Information)

In fact, marriage between cousins is legal in Europe, Canada, and 20 U.S. states.

Silversun

You can add New Zealand to that list. The only criminal incest offences in NZ are parent/child, sibling/sibling, and grandparent/child. Not sure about marriage between aunt-uncle/niece-nephew, but it's not criminal in any case.

stoptheqtip

I'm thinking of uncles/aunts and niceces/nephews, right?

sugarplum

Incest may be all fun and games on paper or on your computer screen, but it is quite different when it happens in real life. It is not something, in my opinion, that needs to be romanticized or glorified. It is sickening and severely damaging to a person's self esteem and has numerous negative effects on a person's future.

My mother and her five sisters are incest survivors and it is appauling to me to think that anyone would find it okay. Even if it were only fictional people.

siopao

I think the reason why some people ship Max and Isabel of Roswell in real life cause Jason and KH has a real life relationship. But for Christ sake their actors
can they keep the hots that they had for each other private nd not get it into their work. They were both hired to play brother and sister. since the start of the show. It was their Job to act that way and not let their true feelings be obvious. It only proves what crappy actors they are. I mean look at the husband and wife actor who co star in Jag they were not playing brother and sister and not even in a romantic relationship. But nobody in their audience sense that the two were
married.
No matter what the excuse is Shipping brother and sister character in a fanfiction is sick and maybe some has some perverted idea but in a slash someone needs
to see a theraphist quick EWWWW.

Crossbow

I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that's illegal here. Your aunt or uncle is genetically almost as close to you as one of your parents.

In the US, the closest relative you can marry without extra blood tests and stuff is a second-cousin.

Anyone read Robert Heinlein? He's incredibly pro-incest. It's absolutely horrifying. He advocates parents having sex with their children as soon as the reach puberty, and siblings having sex with each other (Including same-sex). Thank god he and his wife weren't able to have any children.

Cress

What? When did Robert Heinlein advocate that? Was it an actual statement he made, or just something fictional in one of his stories? Because what you write in your stories is not necessarily something you advocate. (Murder and mystery writers for example, don't actually advocate killing people.)

Crossbow

He has incest portrayed as a wonderful thing in several of his books, but I don't know if it was To Sail Beyond the Sunset or Time Enough for Love where he said "Parents should love their children, and it should be the hot, sweaty kind of love."

kerrplop

Tough question. I've seen first hand the damage incest between a parent and child can cause, and it horrifies me.

At the same time, what if an incestuous relationship, fictional or otherwise, doesn't involve a minor? What if it is two consenting adults? I'm sure a lot of people would say it's still "sick", maybe me included, but who am I to tell people what they can and can't do with their lives? Are they hurting anyone? (Assuming they are not procreating of course.) I don't know. Is there such thing as a healthy incestuous relationship? Not that I know of. Does that mean it shouldn't be explored in the world of fiction? No. A writer can explore whatever the hell he/she wants, and the same goes for the reader.

I've read incest fics before and they were disturbing and intriguing. Maybe intriguing because they were disturbing. Maybe disturbing only because society said they should be. Again, I don't know. This is a hard subject for me. My reading incest fics doesn't mean I condone incest or nonconsensual sex. (Strange how I feel the need to state that. Obviously, reading a murder mystery doesn't mean I condone murder.) But as a growing literary genre, I think it deserves attention. (Good on us, then. )

My point: I have no idea what I think or what I just said. Chalk it up to: An it harm none, do what ye will.

*Arista*

Very interesting thoughts, kerrplop. Have you ever seen the film This World, Then The Fireworks? It's a wannabe neo-noir from 1997 starring Billy Zane and Gina Gershon. They play twins who have an extremely close relationship. I rented the movie because I'd heard about the incest element and was curious. It's pretty dreadful, but I mention it because it does explore incest between two consenting adults, to some degree.

There's another film that I would love to recommend (it's one of my favorites of all-time) but the incestuous element isn't revealed until the final act, so I'd spoil the whole film if I told the title.

Actually, I just thought of another one I could mention as well, but I'm thinking that the incest issue is not revealed until near the end, so again I don't want to spoil it. If anyone is curious and doesn't mind being spoiled, PM me and I can give you the titles. Unlike the first film I mentioned above, these are both excellent and well worthy of your time.

That's where some conflict comes in for me - over whether to wish that my soap couple would be "de-cousined" so that they had half a chance of surviving. I don't know how much of what intrigues me about them is tied up in the fact that they're related, but the 'forbidden' element is certainly something that draws me to them. However, I've seen a LOT of people saying lately that they'd love these two if only they weren't cousins, so I would not be surprised if the show goes that route.

I thought I'd also give you all a little update on the status of my couple on GL. June 21st was a HUGE day for them, when the months of subtext leapt to the foreground and the characters confessed their feelings for one another. It was some of the rawest, most intense scenes I have EVER seen on television. If anyone is curious, you can d/l the clip of that day here:

Jon and Tammy, 6/21/05

Last week she saved him from drowning. He saved her from a fire earlier this year, and I just adore that karmic symmetry.

This past weekend I saw a bunch of people throwing a fit, because...Today, Jon and Tammy KISS! For the first time since New Years. Yeah, I'm a little excited.

I'm also happy to report that the fanfic section of my board for them has been growing steadily. Someone just started a full-blown smut for them (our first), which I for some reason was so proud of LOL. Makes me feel like we've finally arrived, I guess. And a friend that I beta for is writing several fics for them, including one that will involve a pregnancy. This obviously has to be handled very carefully, but I just know the story is going to be great!