'Incest is the new slash' - discussion
 

"Incest is the new slash."

Not sure who said that, but certainly it's a phrase that's been floating around for a bit of time now in the fanfic community at large. Thoughts? Opinions? Debate is encouraged but given the sensitive nature of the subject matter, please remain civil to each other and respect other posters' opinions.

***

I've just personally embarked on my first serious incest 'ship, and it's quite exciting; I suspect it's due in large part to the fact that usually I'm stuck on M/M 'ships and it's not often that I actually fall in love with a het couple. It is certainly arguable that this couple (River/Simon from Firefly) has some grounding in canon.

Anyway, that's all background and veering from the point that I wanted to make: Is it fair to say that incest has just recently emerged as a viable 'ship choice for the mainstream? Or has it always been around for certain communities? Or, is it still not "mainstream" and I'm just too comfortable in my little incestuous shipper community that I neglected to notice that most people still get very squicked by the idea? Have we become so used to the idea of slash (especially in light of the fact that gay relationships are coming into canon proper and hence altering the meaning of 'slash' altogether) that we needed something more "alternative", as it were, to direct our UC energies toward?

Sorry for the ramble. Just trying to sort through the ideas. :)

Hmm...I don't know if incest is becoming "mainstream," but I do see it around more often than I used to. The pairing I see mentioned most, I think, is from HP - Fred and George. (I actually might see "twincest" mentioned more often in general than other forms of incest.)

I have a hard time putting incest and slash in the same category, since slash is just gay, and incest is majorly harmful to the people doing it in real life. I've only seen one story with incest where I was even marginally OK with it, and that was one where two brothers had been so abused and isolated by their family that they didn't have anyone else - and even then, it wasn't all THAT convincing, because they were elves, which are immortal in that fandom, and they were both over 3000 years old, and it wasn't believable that they were kept isolated for that long.

Incest (or at least pseudo-incest) seems to be a big thing in the actual canon of a lot of things lately, so if it's showing up a lot in fanfic I'd say that's why. Arrested Development, Carnivale, Veronica Mars, and Lost have all dealt with incest over the last year, and those are just out of the shows I watch. Even The OC seemed to hint at it with Ryan/Lindsay (even though that made NO sense since Ryan is not actually related to any of the Cohens.)

In my jurisdiction, incest is only criminal when it comes in three forms: parent/child, grandparent/child, and siblings. As far as I know of these fandoms, that means Arrested Development (cousins) and Lost (step-siblings) can probably be counted as 'soft incest' rather than 'incest proper', if we want to get down to it. Pseudo-incest seems to cover it pretty well. Not sure about the other fandoms mentioned... Is incestfic becoming a bigger thing now that the shows themselves are latching onto the idea?

Oh, I didn't really mean to suggest it was 'mainstream'. Fairly certain that this would never become mainstream per se, I just didn't know how else to put it. :D More public awareness? More fanon heading in this area?

Twincest, I have to say, is really intriguing. There seems to be an overwhelming sense of narcissism in that 'ship, because it's hard to tell when you end and ther other person begins. Well, that's what I got from the few fics I've read, anyway.

The thing with "slash", though, when it started out, was that it didn't just mean gay. It had a far more deviant undertone to it as far as I could tell - very UC - perhaps because at the time gay relationships were considered very deviant. There has been discussion about whether, for example, Willow/Tara fics from Buffy can still be counted as slash, because it is not only gay, it is also now canon. Now that a great number of people are considering gay relationships to be normal/canon, the "slash" label seems to have lost a lot of its original meaning. In steps incest and it's like how slash used to be. That's how I see the 'new slash' statement, anyway.

When "slash" started out, it meant two characters of the same sex who were not paired in the canon. Obviously, a lot of it was graphic. Somehow, some people for the idea "slash" mean graphic sex, and others got the idea that it meant kinky sex. One of my friends thought it meant "blood sports." But all it REALLY meant was gay and non-canon. I've seen a lot of things mis-labeled as "slash" because the author thought it mean "sex" in general.

I think in most states, incest is only criminal if one or both parties is under 18.

But let's talk about the incest taboo in general: Familial bonds are supposed to prevent sexual attraction. It works that way in almost all mammals, not just humans - but incest is especially dangerous in humans because our gene pool is so much smaller than it is for other animals.

Now, you could have two people who are related by blood but have never met, so they would not have a familial bond, and it would not feel like incest to them. You could also have two adopted siblings who are not related by blood, but would feel a familial bond that would make them feel like the incest taboo applies to them.

On "Lost," the parents of the step siblings married when the kids were 12 and 14 - meaning they'd already hit puberty, and it was too late for them to develop a sibling bond. In their case, they're not related by blood AND they don't have a sibling bond, so is it incest in any sense?

Well, it must be, since everyone keeps calling it that. Clearly it's striking a nerve with some people.

It depends on your perception, really. I think Boone possibly always harbored a crush and eventually more for Shannon, and Shannon relied on him very similarly to the way some use their boyfriends- as a protector, someone to bail you out of trouble, etc. I'm not saying it's right, but they weren't physically or emotionally siblings. (Granted, I shipped Max/Isabel on Roswell, so I'm not sure how reliable my views are). I think the biggest issue with "LOST" though, is that "Hearts and Minds," the episode with the Boone/Shannon kiss, was the one immediately following LOST winning a family friendly award, and due to it's early prime time slot, it was more risky.

Personally, I enjoyed the Boone/Shannon relationship. The way it played out was interesting, and I think most people were somewhat expecting that flashback development. I remember after watching the pilot back in July or August my first thought was, "They're sooo not siblings." Even the way Shannon paused when Claire asked if Boone was her boyfriend, or the way Boone reacted to Shannon's asthma attack, etc. It was very clear to me that something was up, so I think I was actually a bit relieved when it was learned they weren't biologically related.

Honestly, incest, as for me, is a taboo to those who believe in it. It's pretty much like a society-induced pill. Ethically and morally it is incorrect, society said.
I think before condemning a "pair" with incestial relationship, one must look into the circumstances that had brought them together.
I like Boone and Shannon's story. It's complicated and complications are the stuff that make a plot really interesting. And since they never grew up together, there wasn't a sibling bond to start with.

Silversun - if you want to see an example of an incest relationship - a real one not a pseudo one - being addressed in mainstream television you could check out a few episodes of Passions - though I hesitate to inflict this show upon you. You might not have access to the recent episodes, but you might check out a Passions website or two or see if there are any thread discussions anywhere that discuss this in depth (the spoilers thread here is mostly made up of us dispossessed fans who miss the way the show used to be).

I used to watch this show frequently over a year ago when it was purposely a non-mainstream, funny soap. I got semi-addicted and actually cried when Timmy died - and then again when the actor died in real life the next day (a very sad story). I still check up on it every once in a while and there is a somewhat intriguing incest story at the moment that has been building for a long time.

Chad and Whitney are half-brother and sister. Whitney was raised by her mother. Chad was stolen away when he was a baby, because he was the product of a union between a prominent son and an African American woman who was a blues singer and alcoholic at the time, and the overbearing father would not allow a marriage. The woman later became a respected doctor. When the son, Chad, came back to town, he fell for his half sister.

Eve, the mother, had suspicions that Chad might be her son, but wasn't entirely aware of the budding romance. She had suspicions though - which led to a hilarious "nightmare" where she was on The Jerry Springer Show (the real Jerry Springer made an appearance) and Whitney was pregnant by her brother and the ususal Jerry Springer confrontations occured with all of the players coming out to hurl their accusations. This went on for a couple of episodes and it was very well done (looked just like a real Jerry Springer show - I'm not a fan by far, but have seen one or two eps). Then DNA tests seemed to show that Chad was not her son, so she gave a sigh of relief. BUT surprise! That same overbearing father changed the results, so...

Now that "nightmare" has become a reality. Whitney and Chad did consummate their relationship which went on for a while before they found out that they really were half brother and sister. Whitney now has a baby by her half brother. The interesting part is in how they are portraying the differing reactions of the half siblings.

Whitney was horrified when she found out the truth. She was so guilt stricken that she was actually not eating and endangering the baby's life. Chad on the other hand wouldn't give up his love for Whitney and still wants to have the relationship. Whitney did have the baby, but gave it up for adoption because she couldn't bear to see it. She lied to everyone that the baby was someone else's. Chad (who I think knows the truth) adopted the baby, not only because it is his, but because he hopes to get Whitney back eventually.

The last episode I saw had Whitney actually looking at her baby for the first time and seeing that he was beautiful (well, beauty must be in the eyes of the beholder, because what an ugly baby - hee), so I'm wondering just where they will take this storyline now.

It might be interesting for you to check out reactions to this mainstream TV pairing to see what attitudes, fanfic etc, might have come from this.

It's much more than that - it's a biological imperative. Inbreeding is very dangerous in humans.

My sister is a geneticist. She says there's genetic evidence that there was a massive die-off of humans at some point, and that we're now all descended form one small group. Basically, we're already so inbred that any further inbreeding starts causing defects really quickly.

Also, with other animals, you can rebuild a population with only a few breeding pairs to work with. With humans, it takes over a thousand.

Although I am not as familiar with the genetics as Crossbow's sister the problems of inbreeding is certainly something that I have heard about and from what I have heard it is a serious problem.

It is interesting to see how the subject varies over the world. Here in England relationships between cousins and step-siblings are not considered to be incest, at least not in law. Siblings certainly are as are parent/child, uncle/child, aunt/child, and also the grandparent aspect already mentioned above.

Parents and children who are not of blood (adopted/fostered/stepchildren etc) are certainly not allowed to form relationship as it is considered in cases where the child is a juvenile that the elder parent/guardian has abused their position of trust.

The cases of siblings growing up apart and without the bond are certainly ones that crop up and it is in these cases when they might have a, for want of a better word, defence morally but the genetic issue is the key factor in why the law has not been changed for their relationship to continue. One thing that I remember reading a few years ago about a couple who had no idea they were siblings (one of those complete coincidences) was that once they had found out, they had taken the issue of genetics very seriously and taken all possible steps to ensure that they had no children because of the potential problems any children could have because of their close relationship. From their point of view they had formed a relationship without knowing it was incestuous and since it was already a relationship that had lasted a lot longer than many others in this day and age they were determined to carry on with it despite other potential consequences.

I don't recall what happened to them exactly, it was just a magazine article I remember reading and was one of the few fair, non-judgemental and reasonable articles I can remember seeing about this subject.

In fan fiction I have actually seen very little of slash, incest or otherwise. I read a lot of romance novels generally and when it comes to fan fiction I look for a lot more than simply graphic sex between any characters. I think the only incest slash I have read was a Tru Calling one which was very graphic although the author did/does at least make an effort to show that the characters are not simply going into that relationship without a care about what they are doing and they do struggle with the relationship and accept that they know it is wrong.

I think that incest is a subject that can be tackled in any media, just as most, if not all subjects, can. But it has to be handled correctly and not just used for the purposes of shocking people into reading a story.

Actually Arrested Development's incest isn't confined only to the young cousins. From the very beginning there's a weird relationship between the mother Lucille and the youngest son Buster. Buster also begins dating Lucille Austero (or Lucille 2), who is a friend of his mother's. There were frequent jokes about how similar the Lucilles were, and how it was like Buster was dating his mother.

There have also been incest jokes between the siblings, such as GOB calling the Bluth office and thinking that the secretary sounded hot, without knowing that it was his sister Lindsay he was talking to. GOB is also very needy and clingy with his brother Michael and their father too. Lindsay also made a joke to Michael about "How can you not have sex with me?" and he responded, "It's hard not to." The show is jam-packed full of incest.

I definitely don't consider step-sibling romances to be incestuous at all. And I don't think that incest could reach the height of slash, simply because of the fact that I don't find slash to be disgusting in the least, while incest is just gross and I believe that a lot of people feel that way. It will be a lot harder to spread the world of incest, than it would be to spread slash in fandom/fannon. Generally, I don't think that people look at the moments between a mother and son, and respond with a "Wow, that was hot."

In the U.S. you can marry your second cousin. You can marry your first cousin in some states, but you have to have a blood test first. I'm not sure what they're testing for, and I think that law varies by state. I think there are some states that require a blood test no matter who you marry.

Relationships between step-siblings or cousins or whatever (such as the example on "Lost") aren't illegal, but people are definitley grossed out by them. Also, they end up on the Jerry Springer show a lot, and that can't be good.

I actually know someone who had an affair with his step-sister, although they didn't meet until they were both 16 years old.

The incestual situations on Arrested Development are not played as "hot" so much as funny/awkward/creepy. Although the cousin romance is shown more as sweet and cute.