Andorra

It takes 5-6 weeks. They must have done all Highclere scenes for the CS already, since the house opened for the public on July14th. On July 12th Allen tweeted from Highclere, so they were probably filming. Even if the family leaves for Christmas, they're alway SOME scenes at the house at least.

So Tom Cullen could have filmed then. Poppy Drayton could have filmed there, too, it's not completely hopeless!

After Highclere Allen, Michelle and Laura were seen filming in London in a pub or tea room. Unfortunately no-one else.

They usually wrap up Mid August. So after they will wrap up in Alnwick there's not much time left.

And also: If they're filming in Alnwick for two weeks, it looks like a big part of the CS will be there and it is weird if some of the characters who are in the CS never appear there? I mean it would be logical for the Downstairs and Upstairs people to have seperate storylines and we saw that happen in other episodes. But seperate stories for the supposed love interests? Unlikely if you ask me.

HarshBench

Well if it's Tom and Mary at the end I am done with this show. After Sybil Tom deserves better than someone who is her opposite: selfish where Sybil was giving, dedicated to the status quo and maintaining her privilege whereas Sybil didn't care about that, snobby whereas Sybil was never snobby?

Ugh, awful. Better than Sarah, but then anyone is better than Sarah.

You're right, how could they have an entire CS with no romance? That makes no sense.

I really hope it isn't Tom and Mary. Poor poor Tom. She was mean with Matthew, the way she treated him about that money. She used Richard. Tom is way too sweet for her.

He'd just be like a different person with her. A less happy person.

northboundtrain

If both suitors are gone, I would expect to see a brand new suitor in S6. I don't think Evelyn is still in the cards, otherwise JF would have done far more with him last season.

But I don't think both suitors are gone. Whether it's Charles (yay!) or Tony, we don't know what state Mary's relationship with "the one" is in by the CS.

All we know is that it looks like Mary and Tony get engaged or come close to it, presumably early in the season, based on Charles's speech to Mary. We also know that Mary and Tony are shown kissing in the hotel and out on the street, which reinforces the idea that they are engaged or almost-engaged.

Beyond that, we know nothing, which means that there are so many things that could happen that could keep Mary away from one or both of the suitors temporarily until S6.

Maybe Mary chooses Tony, Charles goes away (for good), and Tony has some pressing business that keeps him away from the CS, and Mary is just shown missing him.

Maybe Mary chooses Tony, Charles goes away (temporarily), and then something goes wrong with Tony before the CS. Mary/Tony break up and Mary realizes she wants Charles, creating a cliffhanger for S6 (when JO would presumably return).

Maybe Mary is swayed by Charles's speech, chooses Charles initially, and then breaks it off (and JO leaves for good) when she realizes she still wants Tony. But Tony's hurt and/or involved with someone else now, leaving Mary alone for the CS, with the possibility that she'll reunite with him in S6.

Maybe Mary keeps both suitors around and then Charles disappears mid-way through the season under mysterious circumstances. Is he dead? Is he alive? Has Mary's choice been made for her?

So, basically, I don't think the fact that the suitors aren't filming the CS means they're out. There are so many places the story could go, especially now that S6 is basically confirmed. One or both of them could have reason to leave S5 and then return in S6.


I don't think there's any way JF would keep Mary unmarried.

I could be wrong about this, but here's how I took JF's quote about the ending making people irritated: I think he's referring to the fact that he plans to end the show on a more positive, pro-Crawley and pro-"great houses" note, rather than on a note of "these stupid rich people can't adapt and deserve to lose it all, because who cares about the aristocracy anyway?" Which I don't doubt is an ending that some people (most of whom probably aren't even watching the show) would have liked.

GN's quote about the ending of the show is relevant here:

I think that sounds beautiful, myself, but I can see it irritating some people who aren't interested in that kind of message.


I don't think it'll happen. If there were even an outside chance of it, the cast and crew wouldn't be negatively harping on it -- they'd leave it more open-ended.

And given how much JF loves Mary, I don't think he'd give her Sybil's husband, a man who would never love her as much as he did her sister.

ClaireK80

Re: Tom and Mary,

I agree... every time MD and AL are asked about the pairing, their answer is like "ew, no way, they're just friends". They wouldn't be so negative if they knew Tom / Mary is going to happen.

I also agree with northboundtrain that the fact that JO and/or TC aren't in the CS, doesn't mean they're out of the picture as Mary's love interest. But I'm convinced Mary will have decided by the end of the season, because various actors have repeatedly said so (for example RJC). And also, the "who will Mary choose" storyline cannot last more than two seasons IMO.

I don't know what JF means in that quote (I'm afraid someone will die in the last episode or something similar, which I would hate TBH), but I'm pretty sure Mary will be married by then. And Tom and Edith will have their happy ending too.

HarshBench

I don't find the message about the Great Houses still being around irritating, despite my disregard for the idea of hereditary rule and the class system. The houses are part of history and it's nice that some of them still stand as testaments to it.

On the other hand, the argument that "these people were very like you" is pretty thin IMO. Sure, we're all human and we love and live and die and grieve, etc. But the aristocrats of 100 years ago were just as different as they were similar.

The cultural shifts since that time have been so vast that it really is difficult for a modern person to get inside the head and heart of someone like Robert who was born into power and status and believes that he is fundamentally superior to others and has an almost divine right to rule. Because that is how they thought.

Most people who visit those houses would think they would be the servants, I imagine. And would probably be thanking God that times changed and they were no longer born into a lower class and destined to die in it.

puffball7

That's an interesting thought, people might be irritated by it, and I agree it would be quite a poetic ending for the show to finish on, because these houses are still around, these aristocrats do still exist, in a depleted form, yes, but they are still out there. For example, near to the town where I live in England, there are still two big titled families that own large estates and houses in the surrounding area, Marquess of Abergavenny owns Eridge Castle and estate which includes a small part of the town I live in! There is also Viscount De Lyle who owns Penshurst Place and is also the Lord Lieutenant of Kent.

As for Mary and Tom, it has crossed my mind in the past, but I don't think it will happen, I'm not sure I want it to either, I agree with JF in that I like the friendship that they have developed and that they can confide in each other without explicitly explaining everything.

IDK, assuming the Crawley's have been invited to another house to stay for the CS, then I suppose the romantic partners wouldn't necessarily be invited to, therefore their parts would be elsewhere and might be quite small. Perhaps the actors involved have already filmed their parts?

I find it hard to believe that Mary and Tom will both have a blank canvas come the end of series 5, it's possible I suppose but I'm doubtful.

But, as long as Bunting doesn't grace my TV screen for long, then I'm ok.

I have seen the ITV drama trailer a lot of times on the TV now, and I too have wondered about the scene where Thomas bursts through a door looking panicked, the lighting does look like something that might be on fire, it's got that all around glow to it. It's just a thought?

HarshBench

A lot of people think Thomas is witnessing a fire and same with Robert in that bit where he bursts into the room looking alarmed.

I agree Tom and Mary won't have blank slates at the end of the season. Not totally. The writing might be unclear though. In fact I would bet on it. But I think everyone here is correct that they won't be on each other's slates. Lol

northboundtrain

Exactly. Every time they're asked, they reinforce the idea that in-laws getting together would be awkward. All that does is turn off fans who may have been open to it otherwise.


Well, I could see her making a choice and then that choice falling through for whatever reason, with a cliffhanger ending that's not necessarily about which man she'll choose but maybe more "will the one she chose even be able to be with her?"

That would be one way to reconcile the actors' comments with the fact that TC and especially JO appear to be busy with other projects.


I would hate to see someone die, even a character I don't particularly care about. The only one I could see JF killing is Robert, if he wants to do a symbolic "passing of the torch" kind of thing. Or maybe Cora if EG is ready to move on.

I'd worry about Violet, but I remember reading somewhere that JF said he'd never kill her. Then again, maybe he meant he wouldn't kill her in the middle of the show's run, and the finale would be fair game. I hope not.


Oh, I don't think that Robert is sympathetic in everything he thinks and does -- he's in the wrong so often. But I feel like the show's gone to great lengths to argue that the Crawleys, while wealthy aristocrats, love and hate and die and grieve and struggle with the decisions they make just as we all do. We may not be able to relate to Robert's background and feeling of superiority, but we can understand and relate to his other flaws (his stubbornness and shortsightedness, which are flaws many people have) and his strengths (his loyalty to Bates and his compassion for Drewe).

I was actually just reading an MD interview where she says that JF had them tone down their clipped accents because he wanted them to be more accessible to viewers. I think that says a lot about JF's vision for the show, that he was willing to sacrifice historical accuracy to help viewers connect to the Crawleys.


That is really cool and seems like it fits with what JF was saying.


I'm not really a Tom fan, but I do like his friendship with Mary. I like the idea of two very different people finding a bond through experiences that others can't really understand.


I did consider that, but I don't know a whole bunch about filming for television, so I wasn't sure how feasible that might be.


Most theories I've read online are that it's a fire. I just hope if it is that Thomas didn't set it.

SannraB

Mary/Tom: No way. They have a very close relationship and i really love the intimacy between them. But they aren't lovers. And i don't really understand why everyone is so much into this love-thing. There are so many different kind of relationships in life, to be a lover is just one of them! The relationship between Mary and Tom is so special, there is nothing more you can aim for.

Mary/ Tony: I still don't believe this will happen. It's too obvious at the moment. They want to promote the next season and raise tension. It would be stupid to reveal a secret, everyone wants to know, in the Premiere-Trailer! Beside this there hasn't been a classical development in creating a love-couple in S4. They don't appear as a couple to me.

Mary/Blake: IMO I would prefer Charles for Mary instead of Tony. But nevertheless i'm also not totally convinced.

Mary/ Evelyn: The good guy Evelyn well....maybe we underestimate him! I doubt that there will be a final conclusion towards the love question until the end of S5. And maybe until then we'll only get an idea who might be end game and nothing more. I don't think that this will be solved that fast. Evelyn is not in the focus anymore, but he's still in contact with Mary. He can get into the focus again. When there is really a fire at downton, maybe he is the hero in saving Marys son e.g.?

I don't believe that Mary will stay alone. She is a main figure and JF won't do that.

But i guess the best solution would be to introduce a totally new character for her.

Andorra

I don't think introducing a completely new character for Mary would be a good solution. It is very likely that the show will end after series 6. So there would be no time at all to introduce a new character, let us learn enough about him to like him and then let Mary marry him.

I think there're enough potential love interests in the show by now and JF should work with what he has here. My bet is still on Tony Gillingham, but I'm not sure. IMO Evelyn is more likely than Blake though, but maybe my personal aversion against Blake makes me biased .

I've read a new interview with Michelle today. I only had scans and I'm too lazy to give you the exact quotes, but here's a summary about what she says about Mary's love life:

- Mary is through the grief and is embracing life
- she is going out more and embracing fashion
- she has grown up and enjoys working with Tom Branson as Co-Master of the estate
- she is searching for love
- she has to make a rational decision
- she has to pay attention to position and status, because she is an aristocrat and the mother of the heir of Downton.
- she still tends to make impulsive decisions and those are not the best ones as it was shown in the past.

SannraB

No. First: We don't know how long DA will exist. Maybe JF has a plan but the audience can't have a knowledge yet. That's all speculation. 2nd: Matthew had been introduced in a half season and they got a couple at the end of S2. When there is really a plan of quitting after S6, time would be enough to get our sympathy for him.


This can stand for so many things and for me it's nothing new. Mary has to take care of her position and decide that way and she can be very childish, wenn she takes life easy. Flirting, dancing and so on. I would't wonder if she'll do a mistake because of her arrogance and frivolity. That's the Mary of S1.

HarshBench

That's interesting. But IMO it shows that in trying to make viewers connect to the Crawleys and feel more akin to them he actually doesn't present them as they really were.

He changes the way they talk, not because they would be unintelligible if their accents were more "clipped", but because they would be less relatable and appealing if they spoke the way they actually spoke.

The show has always erred on the side of making them as sympathetic as possible. Most families were not as chummy with their servants, for example. The Lord of the Manor would have been far more likely to sleep with the maid (maybe multiple maids) rather than call it off like Robert did. And if a daughter married a servant? In almost any other case she wouldn't have set foot in the house again. Not with him.

They are obsessive about historical accuracy when it comes to place settings and costumes, but less so when it comes to how the characters actually behave and react a lot of the time. If they have to change the characters to make them more relatable, that undermines the argument that they were really "like you and me."

Anyway, as far as the Mary/Blake/Tony thing goes, I also doubt they would introduce someone else new in S6. Could be Evelyn, but he's not new.

SannraB, I think Andorra is right that S6 is likely the last one. The main characters are contracted through then but not beyond. Lily James is already leaving, and they lost three other people before that. The actors will have opportunities to do other things and will want to take advantage of that. And also just move on in general. Maggie Smith is near 80 years old now and hardly needs to work anymore. They can't keep going if the main cast keep dropping like flies, which they almost certainly would.

As for Matthew/Mary in S1, he met the family in Episode 2, right? It took 4 episodes for them to become a couple, but that wasn't the end of it. They had to break up and get back together (a whole season later) for the cycle to be complete. I don't think one season is enough to do a whole DA-style "relationship cycle" for Mary and some entirely new guy.

Andorra

I don't mind that they make the characters more likeable. I hate shows where I can#t relate to the characters and I have no problem with liking aristocrats. I like Jane Austen's characters and Mr. Darcy is not more realistic than the Crawleys.

It's not a documentary, it's pure entertainment. I like it that I do learn a bit about history, too. I'm interested in how they lived, how those grand houses were run, how they looked etc, but I don't need to see harsh reality. I have enough harsh reality as it is .

So for me Downton is the ideal show. Much prettyness, interesting, but mostly likeable characters, love, fun, heartache, humor and tragedy all in a historical setting that interests me. Totally my cup of tea!

New picture from Northumberland


Look at the big ring on Rose's left hand? She seems to be at least engaged if not married. And the man? Is it Larry Grey or his brother?? Are they visiting Lord Merton and is Rose engaged to one of the sons?? Or could it be Evelyn? It's really hard to tell for me...

HarshBench

Oh wow! That does look like it could be Evelyn. And we know BP was in Edinburgh at the same time as the others went up. I doubt Rose would be with Larry. So if it's not him it might also be the older brother Tim. We need to check that actor again and look at his height and compare pictures etc

But I do think it could be Evelyn. In profile and in terms of height. How tall is BP?

Ok I couldn't find it but I did find a pic of him and Matthew standing next to each other in S1 and they look about the same height. Dan is over six foot so Brendan is tall too. And that guy is tall. Lily is about 5'8".

I will check to see how tall the other guy is. But given Brendan was in Edinburgh at the right time it seems like it could be him.

But that doesn't necessarily mean he's with Rose. Maybe it's his house and they're visiting?

The actor playing Tim Merton is tall too. Six foot three. It could be him too but it's hard to tell. No clue on twitter if he's been doing the show. We will see

northboundtrain

I don't really have as much of a problem with changing the accents because, to me, that's more a cosmetic detail. Like when Hollywood has epic film characters speaking in an English accent even though they aren't English, or speaking English period when historically they should be speaking Greek or German.

Or when a period film that's supposed to take place hundreds of years ago allows the actors to look more modern (i.e. nice teeth) even though there's no way the people back then looked that way.


I agree that the Crawleys often look sympathetic (with the exception of Robert and, to a lesser extent, Mary; see below), but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. There probably were some families back then who were loving to each other and close to their servants. This just happens to be a story about one of those families, as opposed to being about a family full of hateful and cold-blooded people.

I do give JF credit for often showing Robert (and occasionally Mary) in an unsympathetic light. He could easily have had Robert not kiss the maid and stay 100% faithful to Cora. He could have had Robert be a smart businessman who doesn't gamble his money away (repeatedly!). He could have had Robert, when Sybil got sick, stay out of it and defer completely to Cora and Tom. He could have had Robert be more supportive of Edith's choices in her personal and professional life.

But to have Robert be a perfect father and husband all of the time wouldn't be realistic, especially for that time period.

So while I think the show makes sacrifices sometimes, I think on the whole it's probably more realistic than not.


Here are larger versions of the pictures from the newspaper's Twitter feed. Mary is there with them.







I don't think the guy is Evelyn because his face seems different to me, but it's hard to say for sure because of the hat.

The article about filming says that the cast is also shooting scenes from the regular season, not just the CS. I found that interesting.

Another thing of note -- is that a ring on Mary's hand in the one where she's walking with Edith? She doesn't have her ring from Matthew on in the promo clip with Tony. Has she put it back on? Or has she actually gotten re-married? Or is that not a ring and I'm just seeing things?