northboundtrain

I know that feeling.


It's really, really good. A lot of movies from the 1930s don't hold up well at all, but that one does.


No, that makes sense, and the more I think about it I think it was probably intentional. I mentioned a JF interview earlier in the thread, and this is more from that same interview: "She is, in modern parlance, hot. Who is best to deal with that? Well, I suppose we would all say someone who is intellectually her equal, but also very attractive to her. And I think for her both of those are required."

And then he goes on to say that Tony fires Mary up, but that Mary is also attracted to Charles's brain.

So it's basically what you're saying here, that Mary has different reasons to be attracted to both, and that they're both offering her aspects of the multifaceted relationship she was lucky enough to have with Matthew.

What makes me more hopeful about Charles's chances is that I think it would be easier for him to become the full package for Mary as S5 progresses than it would be for Tony to become the full package. If JF really is writing Charles as a better intellectual match for Mary than Tony is (as Charles's speech indicates), then for Mary to be with Tony she'd either have to not care that he's not her intellectual equal, or he would have to suddenly become her intellectual equal. I don't know how likely it is that either of those would come to pass.

But for Charles to be the right choice for her, for him to be the full package, all she needs to do is allow herself to be more vulnerable around him, which could come with time, as it did with M&M.

Or all that would need to happen is for her to have a Cher-from-Clueless moment (color-changing water fountain optional ) where she realizes she doesn't just admire Charles's mind...she's in love with him.


Thank you!

Ahh, these always frustrate me because it's so hard to figure out what's going on just based on such short scenes. All the people opening and closing doors and looking concerned. I'm happy to see Thomas, though.... And Mary's smile, even though we can't see who she's smiling at -- I assume it's one of the suitors.

HarshBench

Be sure to wake up in time for S5.

Allen really confirmed what I always saw happening. She is more interested/attracted than he is, and they clash over how they choose to express their political views.

For her, it's personal and it's class warfare. For him, it is about evolution rather than revolution. He has to work within the system if he and Sybbie are to remain part of the family. It's partly a matter of personality and partly a matter of their very different circumstances.

puffball7

This piece of info from AL has given me such a palpable sense of relief I can't begin to describe!

Thank you Andorra! So it seems that it was exactly as we suspected all along and we read JF intentions with her character fairly accurately, that Bunting was after Tom but he wasn't all that interested. AL describes it perfectly as a mismatch rather than a love match, and it seems we were right in our assessment that Bunting reminds him of the person he once was but that he realises he's not that person anymore, he's changed and has learnt that there are better ways of doing things and more important things in life, like family loyalty, as AL says the Crawley's are good people stuck in a class system, like everyone else back then.

None of us liked her character because we weren't supposed to! JF wrote her that way.

However, I'm surprised that such a seemingly big spoiler has been given way, I'm suspicious. Is there a catch somewhere?!

And here is hoping that Andorra and Harshbench's sleuthing skills turn out to be right about Madeleine.

HarshBench

I do think they will stir up some tension in 5.01-5.02 about Tom and Sarah. Despite everything Allen said about their dynamic, it is possible that Tom is considering her anyway. Maybe he doesn't think he'll ever find another soul mate or some he loves romantically like he did Sybil, so he should settle for companionship.

So he will be on the fence, ambivalent, and they will continue to clash over their disparate methods, desires and views throughout the first episodes. Finally he will decide/realize that it is not going to work and he can't settle for such a relationship/union.

I think it will be one of those situations where we know the outcome (pretty much) but will be holding our breath anyway. Just like in a lot of stories. The outcome is almost certain but the journey is still nerve-wracking.

Andorra

Ok, but seriously: Now we know Tom will not end up with Sarah Bunting. But Allen said "he's keen on finding love again"

With whom?

I know I hope for Madeline Allsop's return and there have indeed been various clues that this might happen. But we can't be sure until the presspack comes out. There hasn't been the slightest indication neither from the show nor the actress, but we have been followin her twitter very closely since January and her schedule fits Downton perfectly. Also her followings and followers during the last months indicates that she is in contact with the show and it's actors.

So if she will be back, I'm sure she would be there for Tom.

But if not? Who else could be there for Tom? "Brary" is not going to happen. Allen and Michelle have said it repeatedly and Julian Fellows has said it repeatedly, too. I don't think they would be so vocal and firm about it, if it was an option. They never outright lie about the show. They sometimes mislead or they're vage, but they don't lie.

The other options are Rose, Edith or someone downstairs.

I don't think it will be Rose. I used to think she could be meant for Tom, but her storyline hasn't moved into that direction at all. And now we know Lily James is going to leave after series 5 and Allen is going to stay. So they can't put them together anyway. Also it would make sense to marry Rose off to someone, so it makes sense for her to leave Downton and leave the option to have her as a guest in some episodes.

Someone downstairs? We hear they had Daisy reading "The history of the revolution" in the trailer they showed at TCA, but honestly, Daisy and Tom?? That is impossible IMO no matter how many books she might read. I don't think it would be a servant anyway, since that option has been dismissed by the Edna desaster.

That leaves Edith. She is the most likely of the options besides Madeline. But she is an in-law, too and one of the arguments why "Brary" was not going to happen was, that there will be no romance between the in-laws.

So that would rule out Edith, too. Also I think Edith/Tom would be a bit depressing for both of them. I can't see them move past a deep friendship to a passionate romance? That would be awkward.

So even though it would make sense on a rational level (Edith being saved from disgrace, Tom remaining in the family through marriage), I can't see it happening.

Other, new castings? If there are some, they have been kept as secret as Madeline Allsop. No pictures, no announcements. And then again: Why cast someone completely new, if there is a perfectly lovely girl already established as perfect for Tom? And she would have a reason to be there, by visiting her friend Rose. No need to find someone new, if you ask me!

HarshBench

I think it is Madeline because everyone else seems to be ruled out. If not her, some other secret new character.

-We know Sarah leaves, they say good-bye, and Allen basically said it's not happening

-Lily is leaving, Rose has a new man apparently, and there is nothing in her character arc or their interactions to suggest any future romance. She is every bit as much of a party girl now as she was when she arrived, only now she's stopped going after "inappropriate" men. And Tom would be inappropriate.

-Brary is not happening. And they seem to have dismissed the idea of in-law relationships. Why? It doesn't seem romantic. It smacks of convenience and companionship rather than passion. And that's not the kind of romance that fuels this show.


So…..that's it. It's not going to be Daisy, LOL. Not a servant at all.

Anyway, again, unless they have some other secret character Madeline makes the most sense. They took pains to establish her character in the CS, to the point where everyone liked her and would like to see her return. And Giamatti is not returning, so what was the purpose of giving her such a big storyline?

She is perfectly suited to him: "lesser aristocracy", prepared to live without money and not play her father's "fortune-hunting" game any more, modern and direct but still well-mannered and diplomatic.

She has the right "pedigree" to be a Crawley in-law and Sybbie's stepmother, but her Posh status is fairly tenuous. She has no title, so Tom would not be a huge step down.
With his job and connections and experience living with the Crawleys, he is in her wheelhouse now. They would fit into each others lives.

Andorra

She could even be catholic.

Her father would be an obstacle of course. He's ambitious for her, needs money desperately etc. But maybe he went to America on Martha's invitation? Maybe that's why Madeline comes to stay with Rose for a longer visit?

Also I could see Tom hesitating and not wanting to to go for a posh girl again. Actually it would be a hoot if Violet would meddle. I bet she has long decided that Tom needs a posh wife and as you said: Madeline fits the pedigree perfectly!

I think it would make for an interesting storyline.

HarshBench

Yes, I am sure they want someone genteel for him at least. IDGARA what they want for him, but I know it's going to be a factor.

She is perfectly suited but not "out-of-reach." He might think she is, but she isn't. And I don't think she would consider herself above him at all. She didn't with Harold, even though he's a "crass American," LOL.

And note that she seemed happy to spend time with Harold at Rose's ball, even though he had told her he wouldn't go along with her father's scheme. The idea of marriage was off the table at that point. She was with him because she really enjoyed his company. And for that reason I think she would enjoy Tom's too. Like Harold he is "kind and clever and modest" (her words). She's up for fun, but she's not a frivolous party girl like Rose.

And it would make perfect sense for her to be spending time at the house. Martha invited them to America where she could introduce him to rich American widows. If he does marry, she might not care to stay with them, for various reasons. Maybe she can't stand his new wife? Or her father keeps pressuring her to chase rich men and she's fed up with it.

If she returned to England, where would she go? She doesn't have money of her own, and even if her father's wife gave her some (which she might not, especially if they're not on good terms), she's not likely to just go rent a flat and live there alone. Realistically speaking she would have other family but this being DA, they will be out of the picture. Kind of like Mr. Swire had no other heirs or family to whom to leave his money.

Rose would invite her to the house. And since she is friendly with Harold now, Cora might invite her too. Perhaps he asks the family to keep an eye on her. Or maybe Cora visits America and gets to know her there. There are many plausible reasons for her to be having an extended stay at Downton. She and Tom would inevitably spend time together, and one thing would lead to another.

I did consider the possibility of her being Catholic. There were plenty of Catholics among the gentry, although of course they were in the minority and somewhat at a disadvantage. A Catholic could not be Prime Minister, for example, or in line for the throne.

It would be nice if they would address this issue again, since Tom seems to have forgotten Ireland exists. At least he still has that as part of his identity. But I wouldn't be surprised if they never mention his Catholicism again.

puffball7

I'm sure this will be the case and it will be a bit like purgatory watching it, mainly because I can't really see what Tom sees in her to be even remotely considering her.

But hey ho.

As for Madeleine, I think it's more likely to be her rather than someone completely new if I were to bet on it. Without question the storyline of Tom's new partner will be started this series at some point.
Madeleine does have a title of a sort though, Lord Aysgarth is either a Baron or a Viscount, the rungs down from an Earl in the aristocracy hierarchy, so Madeleine as his daughter would be officially called The Honourable Miss Allsopp, rather than just miss, she isn't a Lady though, like Sybil.

HarshBench

True, she is "Honorable", but that isn't considered a great title. Aysgarth is a Baron, which is the lowest rank for a Peer. He told Martha his title is a "lowly" Baronetcy too, but made a point of saying it is a very old one. Like Martha cared.

Apparently Violet's father was only a Baronet, which is not even a Peer. So she did very well for herself by marrying a future Earl. She would not have been considered an advantageous match for him. An Earl can do better. So I assumed Violet was just a man-magnet because of her sass and confidence (and beauty I guess). Maybe her father was very wealthy, but I don't remember it being mentioned that he was. If he were then would Robert have had to marry Cora for her money?

At any rate, Aysgarth's conversation with Martha was telling because it revealed that yes, there are "different kinds of Lords" (as she put it) and not all are on equal footing. And we learned Madeline is not a "Lady" with a capital L, only with a small one. He was a touch defensive about this, because among the aristocracy every little gradation counts. They have a huge, hefty, detailed book so everyone in their crowd knows the exact lineage of everyone else. In S1 Carson and Robert were excited at the prospect of Mary maybe marrying the Duke, because Duke trumps Earl. That would have been a coup.

An "Honorable" is not a coup for people of their class. It's within the boundaries, but on the border. So Madeline, in addition to having no money, has no edge in terms of status. She beats a Baronet's daughter, of course. But she's not particularly desirable, at least for those to whom it really matters. I guess it didn't matter as much to Robert's father, LOL. Violet just overpowered him!

Compare Madeline to Rose, for example. Rose's father is a Marquess, which is above an Earl and I think right below a Duke. They did have to sell their estate, but presumably have not lost all of their money. And most importantly, both have ingratiated themselves with the Prince of Wales, who showed up at her ball. Rose is sitting pretty on the marriage market.

Of course Madeline's status in and of itself doesn't mean she'd be interested in Tom. A lot of girls in her situation would be setting their caps at men with higher titles, or with lots of money, as her father wanted her to do. But by the same token, a lot of men in her situation would be doing the same. The families were bleeding money and selling assets: they were looking to fill their coffers. That's why Tony was set to marry Mabel. She was the heiress to a fortune.

So she wouldn't be appealing to a Lord who needed money, or to a rich guy looking to marry up in terms of status. And she said she's not going to play the fortune-hunting game again herself. Nor does she seem very interested in status, since she clicked with Harold even after he had "escaped her net." IDK, to me she seems in Tom's wheelhouse. And if anything stood in the way (such as her father, or Tom's wariness), I bet Violet would get to work removing the obstacle. LOL.

puffball7

This is true.

I agree with you completely that Madeleine would be in Tom's ball park. I think though that Tom will think that she isn't at least initially. Afterall the leap that Madeleine would need to make would be nothing compared to the one Sybil made, that was a chasm in terms of social differences. I think Tom still sees himself as the working class Irishman, which he is, but I think he is only just coming to appreciate how far up the social ladder he has climbed, he is now land agent of a massive estate and an Earl's son in law and also the uncle of a future Earl.

I think therefore the distance between Tom and Madeleine in the eyes of society would not be as great as Tom might imagine. AL has said this week that Tom is finding his feet more and more with the Crawleys, although he remains conflicted, he's more comfortable with them and trusts them and knows that they will support him, AL said he regards them as his family now as much as his family in Ireland.

I would love if Violet pulled some strings behind the scenes that would be very funny!

Now we just have to hope Poppy Drayton as Madeleine Allsopp does indeed return in series 5! LOL. It'll be a major disappointment if she doesn't.

HarshBench

A major disappointment! But I am still grateful Bunting is exiting the stage. At least that clears the way for someone better. And almost anyone would be better.

But it's true that the gap between Tom and Madeline is not nearly as great as the one between Tom and Sybil. Sybil had greater class status and a good dowry. Add to that her charm and beauty, and she could have married the heir to a Duchy if she set her mind to it. And to make the chasm even wider, Tom was a servant in her father's house. As Mary told her, it was against the rules for him to even speak to her about anything other than his chauffeur duties.

Sybil was not concerned with class or wealth, but she still had a long personal journey to make before she could break away from the only life she'd known. Madeline, by contrast, has already adjusted to her changed circumstances. She's still an aristocrat, but one without an estate or dowry or the security that used to come with her class rank. She's faced a future without money and has reconciled herself to it. Unlike her father, she isn't frightened of it.

She's also a post-war girl, as she told Harold. The rules have changed, her status has changed, and so has Tom's. He's not a lowly servant on her father's estate. He's a well-employed, well-connected upper-middle-class man, who can actually provide more financial security than her aristocratic father can. Not as much as Harold, but enough. And if she was comfortable with Harold, a dyed-in-the-wool American with little knowledge of or patience for English class rules and niceties, I imagine she'd be comfortable with Tom. He knows how to blend into different social situations now, which was a good place to be in that era.

Lauren60

I really appreciate your insights on the English aristocracy. I'm very interested in the choice Mary is facing between Tony and Charles. I take it Tony being a Lord trumps Charles' future baronetcy? If you don't mind, can you please explain what the difference in Mary's title and status would be depending on who she marries? Plus she's the mother of a future earl, does that come into play at all? I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!

HarshBench

Tony is a Lord. Yes, he will have a higher title. Charles will inherit a larger and more prosperous estate, though. The Gillinghams had to rent out their house to keep more of their land. But Charles will be richer.

I don't know if Charles is even inheriting a title, though. Baronets are not Peers, so I don't think their heirs get a title. His cousin is Sir Severus Blake, but that might not pass to Charles. Just the estate.

So if Mary married Tony she'd be a Viscountess. If she married Charles she'd be Lady Mary Blake.

She's George's mother but she'll never be Countess or Dowager Countess, because her husband never became Earl. Violet is Dowager Countess because her husband was Earl during their marriage. Matthew never inherited the title before he died.

Lauren60

Thank-you! I didn't realize Charles may only inherit his cousin's money but not his title. That's interesting. I assumed he would become a Baron as well so I've definitely learned something!

If Mary were to marry Tony (I wish!) she would have similar standing as her mother Cora correct? Mary would be married to a Lord just like Cora is so her titles would be similar. She would be Viscountess Gillingham. I've heard Cora referred to as the Countess of Grantham so Mary would be the Countess of Gillingham? Also, if Mary and Tony have children, they would carry his given name of "Foyle" correct? Mary would never carry Tony's given name of Foyle would she?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!