Lauren60

Regarding Mary and Charles debating sex versus love...actually I highly doubt they used the word sex in their conversation....that would be quite scandalous wouldn't it?

It could be that it's not intended that Tony is one and Charles is the other. I take it as Charles wants Mary to be sure she isn't mistaking her physical attraction to Tony for love. JF plainly told us that Mary is very attracted to Tony and we were shown that in S4. Hence the sexual aspect. Charles isn't speaking of love in this sound bite so I don't see how he would be the love part of the equation. I go back to Charles may be pointing out to Mary that what she thinks is love for Tony is really just sexual attraction. I don't think that's the case by the way. Oh my how the theories are flying...

lipsticklullabies

I agree with this. I thought she seemed hesitant before, but I figured that might have changed with some of the spoilers pointing towards him introducing her to his family and everything. I'm not sure how that turnaround could happen in two episodes, unless Penelope Wilton did want out of her contract so they hurried it along a bit.

I'll be shocked if Bates had nothing to do with Greene's death, although I could see Fellowes making him completely innocent to keep him as the good guy or something. He's so shady and the fact that this is the second murder he's been suspected of in five years or so would make me highly skeptical if it turned out he was innocent - but I'm also not a huge fan of Bates to begin with. I love Anna, though, so I hope she does get some closure on that particular storyline even though I still am not thrilled it happened.

Marigold is an odd name, yeah. It's fitting with the period but I don't know if I like it much either. Also it's kind of strange that no one's said a word about Gregson?

We never got anything along the lines of that quote from even Matthew so it was doubly nice to see. That could be, honestly, but I'm not sure. I haven't really been able to gauge casual viewers' opinions on the triangle. Even on Tumblr I think it seems fairly even, but I usually stay in neutral territory But it definitely wouldn't be surprising if they slipped that particular scene in there without a Mary/Tony scene to balance out opinion if they wanted to sway people. Last series' trailer had more Mary/Tony than Mary/Charles iirc but Charles also showed up much later in the series.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen The Hour but I highly recommend it. She's fantastic in it and the rest of the cast is totally stellar. I'm rewatching it right now so I'm more effusive about it than usual too But it's a great show. I'd totally love to see Lady A butt heads with Thomas as well! Especially because we have no other idea of what he's up to next series.

That's what I was thinking as well, that Charles thinks any attraction between Mary and Tony is only lust and was commenting on it. Which is interesting, actually, because I thought they played the sexual tension angle more with Mary/Charles whereas Mary/Tony got more angsty after 2.03 - not to say they have no sexual chemistry, just that they didn't emphasize it as much because their relationship wasn't so lighthearted, if that makes sense. I may have been reading it weird, though. I haven't started my summer rewatch yet either lol so I haven't watched s4 in a while.

You can really tell press season is kicking off when my posts get to essay length. Just wait until the trailer comes out, good lord.

Andorra

We can expect that to happen on August 30th.

Just a little over a month now!!

HarshBench

I like the name Marigold. It was common then, as were many flower names. But do we know Edith chose the name?

I don't care whom Mary chooses. To me it's a mind game/competition and not all that dramatic really. After all, the race started with the words "let battle commence." Somehow I don't see either couple emerging as an OTP, but we'll see.

That said I have always felt Tony is not very bright. He's not dumb, but he's not intellectually curious or sharp either. But I don't think he'd expect Mary to keep her opinions to herself, or disrespect her mind. Quite the opposite.

I'm sure Mary will be nasty to Edith. They have said that will never change. Even if deep down she respects her and wants her to be happy, her words and action almost always give the lie to those feelings. She can rarely bring herself to express them. The instinct and urge to ignore, mock and belittle her always win in the end. Their relationship has improved a few times, but it's always one step forward, five steps back. Which is sad, but I think the writer uses their dynamic for dark humor and assumes everyone finds it funny. IDK.

Even if she eventually supports her with regard to her daughter, I think on balance the negative will always end up greatly outweighing the positive.

Hmm. Now IDK about Isobel/Merton. But it could just be a matter of "cold feet", or misunderstanding about what he truly wants. At their age companionship is key. She might come to see that, with the help of Violet or Tom or whoever else. I just can't see what other wedding it would be at that point? Unless it's Mary and she changes her mind. Michelle did say she's impulsive, makes decisions and then changes her mind. So we'll see.

I think all the new info about Tom and what we know about the good-bye scene with Sarah all points to him finding love with someone else, or at least getting that process started. It's not Rose, since she apparently has a hunky "new man" early in S5 (they usually only give away stuff from the first few episodes), and during that time Tom will be occupied with the Sarah thing. It's not one of his in-laws, as they have ruled that out.

So it's someone new, and like Andorra I think it is likely to be Madeline Allsop. There are many hints of the actress being involved in S5 filming. Paul Giamatti is not returning, so she isn't coming back with Harold. That leaves her the only girl left for Tom, basically. Unless there is some other secret character in the wings for him, then I think and certainly hope it's her. She is really ideal for him.

northboundtrain

Well, I don't know...I've seen two different recaps use the word "sex." I don't think it's implausible that one or both of them would be so blunt, as Mary's been married and had a child, and she and Charles are both such frank people.


It's possible that it's not intended that one represents sex and the other represents love -- they could just be talking vaguely about what people want out of marriage. We don't have enough detail to say for sure.

But just because Charles doesn't mention love in the bit of transcript we got doesn't mean that he doesn't speak of love at some other point in the scene.


The show's a hit with my family (immediate and extended), all of whom I would categorize as casual viewers (they wait for the PBS airing, they don't read spoilers, they don't post on message boards, etc.), and most of them are very go-with-the-flow to the point where when I had a conversation with some of them about the suitors, they had a hard time remembering their names, instead referring to them as "the one who kissed her" and "the one with the pigs."

I also followed reviewers for the show as it aired in the U.S., and several reviewers seemed to have no strong feelings one way or the other, preferring instead to think of them more as a collective unit of "Mary's men."

So I think JF's task for S5 is actually finding a way to make casual viewers a little more invested in Mary's choice. The easiest way to do that is to start highlighting their differences more than he did last year, and this clip certainly does that.


I've read several articles that assume Tony's the winner because of the Tony/Mary pictures from filming a few months ago, so maybe the clip was also chosen to remind people that Mary's decision hasn't necessarily been made yet.

But I know that if the men's roles were reversed, and they showed a scene of Tony pleading with Mary not to choose Charles because she's scared of her feelings for Tony or something, I'd be a lot more worried for Charles.


I haven't seen it, but I will check it out! I just wiki'ed it and it's a period drama...I love those.


I have a lingering attachment to Thomas/Jimmy, and was encouraged by the fact that they stayed friends after the events of S3, so I'd love a Thomas/Lady A scene of any kind.


I actually agree with you on this point -- I thought there was an incredibly sexual vibe between Mary/Charles. Their bickering seemed like it was meant to mask an attraction they both wanted to go unspoken, and then all that time in the mud (which Mary made a flirty comment about the next day) and then their intimate meal in the kitchen in the middle of the night (which Charles also made a suggestive comment about, when he asked Mary what her family must have thought they were up to....).

But there's a little PBS video clip from last season of JF talking about the two suitors: "You could say that Gillingham is clearly the one who fires her up. But, in a way, Charles Blake's brain is the one she finds most entertaining."

Unless JF's comments were edited, it sounds like he was assigning Tony the role of "man Mary is sexually attracted to" and Charles the role of "man Mary is intellectually attracted to."

I think Mary is sexually attracted to Charles, and I'd think it strange if JF didn't think that. That's why I wish the TCA attendees had given us a little more info on that scene!


I think most of my posts in the Mary/Charles thread on the Downton board last season were essays. I can't wait for the trailer!!

HarshBench

'Downton Abbey' stars offer 5 hints for season 5 - Entertainment - TODAY.com


Yeah, they say Mary is mean to Edith "especially this season." JFC, it gets worse? Well, I'm glad they enjoy acting it so much but maybe they should think about character development?

Somewhere it was also mentioned that the family is surprised Edith is still not over Gregson. So perhaps this will be the subject of mockery? Mary did make fun of it once in S4.

Somehow I don't expect Edith to get the support with regard to her missing/dead(?) lover that Mary got with Matthew. And not only when he left her a widow, but even in S2 when he was missing and everyone (Edith included) worried about and supported her……even though they had broken up two years earlier and were both engaged to other people.

Sorry! I know I bang on about it but I am just preparing myself. I think we have some info that points to the usual favoritism and lack of support/patience/concern for Edith, at least from Mary. It will probably be a matter of "get the eff over it, he wasn't your husband."
"
If that doesn't turn out to be the case, I will be happy to be wrong and the first to admit I was. But I don't think I will be wrong! I mean, Michelle might have said she "thinks" Mary wants Edith to be happy, but that could be head canon and not something that comes through clearly on the actual show. It might be something she believes Mary feels deep down, but doesn't act on or express.

Lauren60

I'm seeing some interesting feedback on what Charles said to Mary. I was insulted on Tony's behalf but many people are insulted on Mary's behalf. They think it very insulting for Charles to presume Mary would dumb herself down for a man. He must not think much of her if he really assumes Mary wouldn't be herself in order to please a man. I think that's a good point. Mary has always been true to herself. Anyway, some Blake fans are now questioning their allegiance to him and are hoping the line is misquoted or taken out of context.

HarshBench

I think maybe they are reading too much into it. He might be implying that Tony is more traditional (which he is) and that he fell for Mary right away, before he had really had a chance to get to know her or see her spikier side.

Tony IMO seemed to idealize her from the start, with his rushed declaration of love and proposal. They knew each other as children (though not well), and he referenced that when he first proposed to her, as though that made them more well-suited to each other.

But she's not a child anymore and she doesn't need or even want to be put on such a pedestal. She needs to be able to be the woman she's become.

I don't think Mary would dumb herself down for Tony or anyone else in the long run, but IMO she was definitely softer and more traditionally feminine with him than she was with Blake. She was more vulnerable when they first met, after all. She started to blossom again under his attention. He brought out that side of her, whereas Blake brought out the other side.

But Blake encountered her sharper and tougher side right away. He doesn't idealize her the way Tony does. I mean, he DOES idealize her because this is Fellowes' world. but I don't think he sees her in the rosy haze of lost childhood and innocence, the haze of an bygone era.

I always got the feeling that her first meeting with Tony kindled a sort of magic for him that was tied to their Glory Days of Olde, even though they actually had not shared them together but only at the same time and in the same Pre-War aristocratic world.

Andorra

Well, I think the comment is not at all romantic and just shows Blakes attitude again. He's oh so smart and knows everything. Can't stand that arrogant, prick, sorry.

I hope Mary choses Tony in the end. She and Blake would make a fine pair. Two arrogant snobs who think they're much better than the rest of the world. urgh...

northboundtrain

I think that's a pretty strange interpretation of the line, myself. Charles isn't saying that Mary's going to dumb herself down for a man. He's not even saying he's seen her acting dumb or keeping quiet in Tony's presence.

All he's saying is that Tony is not Mary's intellectual equal.

Now, where does he think that will eventually lead? It's impossible to say for sure because of where the speech cuts off. Maybe he thinks that Mary would eventually be bored in her marriage with Tony. Maybe he thinks Tony would come to resent her for being the "brains" of their family.

Or maybe this has to do with the future of Downton. If Charles believes that Tony is old-fashioned in his thinking and/or slower on the uptake (like, say, Robert), he might believe that Mary and Tony will have fundamental disagreements about how to run the estate.

I think any/all of those interpretations make more sense than assuming that Charles thinks Mary's going to turn into an airhead or something.


These are great points. I also noticed the differences between Mary's scenes with Tony and her scenes with Charles. With Tony, we saw soft conversations, riding, luncheons, and dancing. All very traditional. With Charles, we saw some initial hostility, a pig rescue and mud fight, and an intimate meal in a darkened kitchen.

Even in the CS gambling plot, Tony was assigned the role of gambling with the other gentlemen, while Charles actually helped Mary break into the apartment.


I believe the show's main point has been how this family will come to adapt to a changing world (a point emphasized by GN's interview). To me, Tony represents the old world you're describing here. He's literally introduced to us as a figure from the past (Mary's childhood). Charles, on the other hand, is introduced to us as a forward-thinking man of the future, one who has already helped Mary ensure Downton's survival. Of the three suitors, he's the only one who seems to symbolize JF's theme of marrying the old world to the new, as Matthew did.

lipsticklullabies

So close and yet so far!

I thought the same. Charles has definitely been positioned as Mary's intellectual equal, but I never saw Tony as expecting her to dumb herself down or anything. I assume what Charles mentions about it is just stuff from his perspective, rather than Tony actually being blatant about Mary keeping her opinions to herself because that would be super disappointing. I can't see that happening, though. It must be just what Charles sees.

The one who kissed her and the one with the pigs I think that's definitely true because they both functioned in more reactive roles in order to serve Mary's arc, if that makes sense. Tony enters first to make her see she can have a relationship/be desired etc etc again, Blake enters second to really reawaken the fire in her and whatnot. I don't need them to be developed in detailed depth because I don't want them to be taking up too much screentime with so many other characters, but JF does need to create a stronger sense of who they are individually from Mary in order for people to get invested in either couple the way people did with Mary/Matthew or Sybil/Tom or Anna/Bates. I've seen the collective Mary's men stuff in US reviews as well so hopefully JF picked up on it. Also, your point about people thinking she picks Tony because of the early set pictures is totally true and I completely forgot about that somehow. That would make sense if they were trying to level the playing field, so to speak, going into s5.

Hahah same, I watch way too many of them honestly (which is how I ended up watching Downton to begin with tbh). If you do watch it I hope you enjoy it!

Glad it's not just me! And yeah, I got that vibe too. I think they've definitely got the intellectual match happening but the sparring partners bit has a sexual vibe as well. Tony and Mary, to me, were much more emotional, I guess? idk the right word but the fact that they have the shared past and their initial common ground was over a shared grieving period (Mary for Matthew, Tony for his father) made their relationship have a very different feel. They still have a bit of a banter after the initial stages (like the lunch scene in 4.08) but that's emphasized much more with Charles/Mary. I think Mary's attracted to Tony but in a different way than she is with Charles.

I think we saw the same post. I see where they're coming from and if it isn't out of context I'll probably agree tbh - if it's just said out of nowhere - but for now I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Stuff is always misquoted/taken out of context in trailers, so who knows.

Another Michelle interview, it's mostly stuff mentioned last night but they do bring up Evelyn: 'Downton Abbey' - Michelle Dockery Interview, Season 5 | ShowbizJunkies

northboundtrain

I know. I was like, "Am I weird or something for actually being able to remember their names?"

It's hard to talk to most of them about the show because they all know I watch before it airs on PBS and they're scared I'll spoil something.


That does make sense. The most important thing about both of them was the same shared characteristic -- "suitor of Mary" -- and everything else was secondary.


I agree...I love Charles, but I don't need him to get a ton of focus and a super intricate backstory. But I do need more than we've gotten so far.

Luckily, JF's good about revealing a lot about a character with just a little dialogue or a short scene, so it shouldn't take too much screentime to fill in the blanks of both Charles and Tony.


Yeah, and GN was quick to remind the TVLine interviewer about Charles, too.

I saw an article several weeks ago that made it sound like Tony/Mary was a done deal, and then I read a bit further and realized they were going solely on the filming pics.


I will let you know!


I remember reading a review that compared their bantering to the movie It Happened One Night, one of my favorites. I don't know if you've seen it, but the sexual tension in that movie (between a spoiled heiress and a newspaper reporter on the run together) is off the charts.


I agree with you. I think with Tony she felt comfortable being a little more vulnerable because they had so much common ground. And I think with Tony she was also caught off guard because he was pursuing her so intensely and so unexpectedly at a time when she believed she'd spend the rest of her life alone.

I think Charles was surprising in a different way. First because she was attracted to "Mr. Blake" even before she knew his true background. And second because of everything he inspired in her.

I don't know...I get that JO may make only limited appearances because of his other commitments, and I get that there are fans who like Tony, and that we really have no idea which guy she'll choose.

But Charles just makes so much more sense to me in terms of Mary and the show's future. He and Mary seem like the kind of couple JF would create to replace M&M. For the banter alone, if for no other reason.


I wasn't enamored with Evelyn, so I'll be quite content if he doesn't return. I think Mary's got her hands full, anyway.

HarshBench

I like Evelyn but three suitors was too many. Three's a crowd, so to speak.

And I felt he was a bit wasted in S4. He was there to introduce Blake, add his voice to the chorus of praise for Mary, be jealous, etc.

I wouldn't want to see him return just for more of the same.

Andorra

Thanks, Allen! We knew it already (and thanks, Daisy Lewis for letting us know thrugh twitter that you have been absent from London since May)

Oh, I'm so HAPPYYY!!!!

We've said it all along, didn't we? Sarah/Tom is not going to happen!!!!

Now we just need Madeline Allsop back and I'm going to fall in a coma from happiness!!

lipsticklullabies

I love it tbh The only person I know irl who watches it is my grandmother, who I'm pretty sure hasn't seen series 4 yet, and she referred to Mary as "the eldest daughter" and Matthew as "the fair-haired one" so I was like, I have to hold back before I start rambling about the entire show.

Yeah, ia and I feel like both Julian Ovenden and Tom Cullen have done well with what they've been given so far/both have strong grasps on their respective characters in interviews which is good to see. Hopefully they can keep sketching in the details without it being too intricate/heavy handed.

I haven't seen it but I've definitely heard of it. I'll have to give it a watch sometime!

Vulnerability was definitely the key factor that was escaping my brain, because by Mary's standards she was much more open with Tony (still guarded, but you know) whereas her guard was immediately up with Blake because she didn't trust him. That, like you said, made him surprising in a different way, especially after she found out about him being "one of them" in a way in the CS. In a weird way to me (or at least at this point) they're both very different parts of her relationship with Matthew. Charles obviously has the banter and presents an intellectual challenge Matthew didn't, whereas Mary's more readily vulnerable with Tony. I agree that Charles and Mary are more what JF might create to replace M/M having more banter between them but I see shades of M/M in Mary/Tony as well, whether or not JF did so intentionally. I'm not sure if this makes sense because I didn't even realize I'd considered it so much But I think both relationships need more rounding out in s5 in different ways.

I'm glad Evelyn's seemingly gone as well tbh. Three was definitely a crowd.

Oooh I'm suprised Allen confirmed that so early but everyone had figured from those set pictures anyways. I wonder if they'll hold off for a new love interest until s6 or if someone new (or a familiar face, if Madeline comes back) will show up in the back end of the series?

ITV released their first fall drama promo today, so we have our first glimpse at series 5 footage. There's only three short lines of dialogue from the Downton bits and only a handful of the ensemble are in it so it's not exactly revealing, but it's something! Lots of spec on Tumblr about Cora and the art historian already.