LilMouse

Now they figure if you really want to see it, you'll find it online Sometimes you don't want to go through the effort of finding it online. Sometimes you just want it presented to you on a silver platter.

I remember Battlestar Galactica aired right after 9/11 and they had the whole, don't trust anyone vibe and you never know who is a Cylon vibe.
That was a good show and I liked how it was dark unlike the original version, which I never saw.

The chunky blonde lady? I don't remember her faces

Is Downfall the one with Hitler that everyone made those parody videos of? They did it like Hitler was mad he'd have to wait to see Harry Potter

I can still hear Ed Harris screaming at MEM and smacking her around when she drowned

Do you really think he killed his nephews? I'm not even sure it was him.

This is why a time machine is needed. If they did write, a modern person from today can go back and save their writings. Who knows if they were all burned?
Same with Queen Victoria burning her diary entries / letters. I want to know what the ones that didn't survive say.

sunnykerr

Except not everyone enjoys watching content on a small screen, having to pay more money to access it, having to deal with endless commercials and/or not being able to fast-forward while watching. Going online is certainly an option, but it removes a lot of control on the viewer, I find. Not that I have that much experience with online platforms.


I remember the movie Gattaca came out around the time Dolly the clone sheep made the news. A great movie showing very clearly the problem with messing with the genetic code of humans. And, again, amazing human relationships at the center of it.


That's her. I don't want to give a false impression, but she had the face of a normal person. Compared to a cast of beautiful people, that might make her sound not-pretty, but that's not what I'm trying to say. She looked good. Just normal.


Yup. That's the one. Downfall's about Hitler's final days in the bunker, so he really had lost the plot by then. All the drugs he was on weren't just taking their toll on him, you know? He was barely functional as a human.


Such a powerful scene.


I doubt he would have done the deed himself. As to whether he had them killed... it's not impossible, given the time period. People had family members murdered back then, for sure. But, also, kids died for all kinds of reasons a whole lot more. Epilepsy, fever of any kind, spoiled food, minor wounds not treated properly... It would have been easy for at least one of those boys to die of non-murder reasons, for everyone around them to freak out and try to cover it up and for the second boy to either die as well or be shipped somewhere he would just get lost in the crowd.

It is literally impossible to know for sure. It's possible Edward had them murdered, but it's equally as likely that they just died from getting a cold.


Personally, I'd be more interested in whatever the Spartans had to say than what Beatrice may have burnt of her mother's diaries. What we have left of Queen Victoria's writing is already enough to reveal the kind of woman she was... it doesn't make me want to know much more. Her poor kids. I mean, given how she was raised, it's no wonder Queen Victoria was such an awful parent herself, but still...

LilMouse

If watching on a phone was the only option, I'd be pissed. I don't want to see something on a small screen or to eat up battery. But a laptop isn't so bad. And if ad-blocker is on then that helps.

Oh yea, Gattaca is a good movie. But Jude Law's ending makes me squirm.

True, and I remember her being on the older-side, so the casting department was looking for kinda middle-america, normal people

I hope, wherever he is, he knows people are making fun of him and creating parodies out of his suffering.

I know it's a really weird thing to say, but I wonder if when we die we learn about all the universe / history secrets. Like do we learn who Jack the Ripper really was etc etc? I would like to find these things out.

I feel bad for her kids. And even though Albert/Edward wasn't a great husband (what king was, really?) she had no faith in him to be a good leader after her.
I am listening to a book right now about Queen V being a matchmaker for her kids and grandkids.

sunnykerr

I guess I shouldn't be surprised I am unaware of all the work-arounds.


Jerome's fate is a bit grim, for sure. I'm always torn between the grisliness of his choice and the fact that it is his choice. The story is all about the importance of a person's will over their predestined circumstances. Jerome's choice, in the end, is the first time he gets to achieve what he wants.... as morbid as that is.


That's precisely it. The alien mom looks like she could be anyone's mom. I'm actually not even sure that she was an alien mom, now that I think about it. She could have been a follower. Or a bodyguard or something.


At the end, whatever Hitler had been as a man was entirely gone. He was like a Dath Vader figure, only instead of the machine keeping him alive, it was drugs and hatred. No man there to feel or understand human emotions, even his own.

Obviously, our sense of justice demands that his evil acts have consequences, and his cowardly suicide robbed humanity of that. But, once he's dead, I'm kinda not interested in his suffering. I know it might be weird, but I feel Hitler's time after life would have been better spent in reparations than in expiation.


That's also a fantasy of mine. I guess we'll find out eventually.


Queen Victoria's life is a study in contradictions. The fact that she more or less opted out of public/political life after Albert died was the exact thing that was needed at that time, since parliamentary monarchy was just starting out and monarchy might not have survived had she "continued" to try and impose her will on government. At the same time, by the time she died, Bertie/Edward's pomp and circumstances style of very showy monarchy was exactly what was needed to make sure monarchy retained its popular support.

Exact opposite ways of governing, exaxt same impact. Go figure.

I never know what to think of Victoria, in the end. As a parent, she was a monster. As a woman, she was self-centered and selfish... but then what else was she supposed to be? Everything around her was all about her. It's just hard to reconcile how she could get away with it, but then it was such a different time.

LilMouse

True, although couldn't he have taken a pill instead and fallen into sleep? He died in such a very dramatic way.

yea, I think it was more like she was a soldier and posing, for the sake of wanting to establish trust and/or calm from the podsters, as a mom.

I meant like, I hope while Hitler is in hell, while a band of demons are hammering his skull for eternity, he also knows that in the earthly-realm his memory is also being abused. With his ego, it has to be bothersome.

It'd be cool to meet our ancestors to all the way back to cave man times.


It's probably what saved British monarchy from ending up like Czar Nicholas II and other European royals that WWI got rid of.

The way her own mother raised her didn't help. Who knows what she would've been like as a mom/woman if she wasn't raised like she was in a prison.

sunnykerr

Maybe in a world where people can design their kids, the types of pills needed to kill yourself don't exist? I don't know. Obviously, they went for the drama of the grisly end instead of a calmer death.


I find it hard to argue against Hitler needing to be punished. I just don't believe in hell. Obviously, I could be wrong about that. I'm not saying there is no hell. I just can't picture Hitler in a place I don't believe exists. If we follow the "logic" of What Dreams May Come, Hitler certainly would be in a kind of hell where he doesn't realize he's died.


Not sure I'd want to go back as far as cavemen. But it would be wonderful to meet the generations that preceded me. By the time I was born, only three of my four grandparents were alive and they all died by the time I was 20. I would love to meet my mother's father. From what she has to say about him, he was wonderful.

And my paternal grandfather's specific ancestry is a freaking mystery. Aside from the fact that his father (who died during WWI at age 28) was born in Scotland and his mother was Irish in some way or other (whether born there herself or born of someone who was is a total mystery), nobody knows anything for sure. We're not even sure what the family surname actually is since there were a couple of adoptions along the way.

I'd also love to meet historical figures, though. Or, maybe not so much meet as... behold? Like, I'd be really intimidated to introduce myself to Jane Austen, but I'd like to be in her presence.


The irony there being, of course, that Czar Nicholas II ended the way he did because of his English cousin being too afraid of "what it would look like" to grant him asylum in England, when even the English government was ready to work on that.

But, for the rest of it, you're completely right. Like Swedish, Soanish and Belgian monarchy, English monarchs owe their survival in some part to Victoria paving the way for their being mostly symbolic and her son building on that to add the pomp and circumstance bit.

Given how young Victoria was when her father died, it's so ironic that her mother was such a Georgian in the way she raised her youngest child. They really ate their children, those Georgians.

Considering how Edward went on to raise his kids to fear him, and then his son George V also raised his kids to fear him, it's a bit of a miracle that George VI was such a doting father to his daughters. I don't know how he managed to break the cycle, but I have a lot of admiration for that.

reason to believe

I’m so lost in this thread now

LilMouse

We really did go off on a tangent. I can't even remember what page it was where a crush was talked about.

Do you have a current celeb crush?

Yep, all of that sounds accurate. Falling asleep doesn't produce the visuals that burning does. Gotta make it more heart-pumping for the audience.

I never actually saw What Dreams May Come, but I get the thought of what the movie was going for.
Kinda like reliving your worst day forever and ever

I hope you do get to meet him
My grandma died when I was 7, so I would love to have more (eternal) time with her. It's somehow sadder when a grandparent dies when the grandkid is young because all the questions you should ask a grandparent aren't thought up at that time. Even with my grandfather, he died when I was 20 and there's so much I would ask him now because I have an interest and the questions have been thought of.

The amount of people who died, needlessly, in WWI is so upsetting. SO many young men that didn't need to die. And whoever thought that having men hunker down in a hole was a great way to fight a war needs to be smacked.

Too bad records aren't better. Although churches keep very good records, so maybe family history can be looked into that way?

I have an idea that she'd be able to make anyone who is intimated feel comfortable.

And Nicholas not only being his first cousin but Alexandra being his first cousin too...how can first cousins be ignored? And Alexandra was Queen Victoria's favorite grandchild. I don't think George made grandma very happy.

I wonder if inbreeding affected their behavior.

My theory is because George V was so tough and cold that it made George VI have no confidence in himself and that somehow made him a softer parent.

sunnykerr

Sorry! Feel free to send us in a new direction.


Not to get too graphic. But I would imagine that, even if that's how you want to go out... it would hurt. At least for a bit. You would scream, react physically...

Anyway... lol: Still agreat movie. Just a weird ending. I did kinda wish Jerome and the Uma Thurman character could have, I don't know... been friends or something.


Sort of. I mean, what we see of "hell" in that movie is in bits and sections. There is plenty of room for the imagination to create other scenarios.

The bit about the suicide person's version of hell is that it was their life, only with everything going wrong. Their house with pest invasions. Things that keep getting lost. The hell part isn't torture. It's thinking that you're still in the life that made you want to die.

Which was total nightmare fuel for me. Even as a person who doesn't believe in hell.


That's it, isn't it? Even the generations we got to meet... the relationship wasn't close. There was the gap of the generations between us.

So, I'd be curious to find out about the more distant stuff... but I'd be fascinated to really talk to the people who are closer to me in the timeline.


World War I was an exercise in pointless butchery. The kicker, in my case anyway, is that my greatgrandfather didn't die at the front. At least, I don't think so. He's buried in Ontario, in a military hospital. So did he catch Spanish Flu on the way back? Was he injured to the extent that he needed hospitalization and he didn't make it? Complete mystery.


I have an aunt who tried. The Irish records were apparently destroyed during the Irish Civil War. We wouldn't know where to begin to look for in terms of church records as we have no hint in terms of parts of Ireland. Her surname was very common for Ireland.

On the Scottish sides, my greatgrandfather seems to have been illegitimate. So that's gonna remain a mystery.


Maybe. If she was feeling particularly charitable that day and I struck her as a pleasant person. Because I've read that lady's letters. And the fact that the letters of hers that I have read are those that weren't burned by her sister (Victoria's daughter wasn't the only to do that) tells me that her wit could be deathly sharp.

Basically, everything I love about Jane Austen means I may very well not be up to snuff.




That's how alike the Russian czar and his cousin, the English king, looked. George V is the one who de-Germanized all the royal family names because he was afraid the people would turn on them after WWI. I think maybe he sacrificed his cousin Nicholas and his family because he was afraid that his bringing an actual "god made me special to rule over my people" monarch to the English isles would put his own reign in danger.

They were very much like that before 100 years before Victoria was born and all the inbreeding really kicked up. I think it's George II who had his wife, who was in the middle of active labor, travel in a horse-drawn carriage for however long just to make sure she wouldn't deliver their first-born under his father's roof.


That's not a bad explanation at all.

And, since we want to talk about crushes, can we discuss Colin Firth playing George VI in The King's Speech? His utter desolation at being forced to become king when he's got that stutter...

LilMouse

Agree. I can't say why the character chose something so painful, but if this was real life I don't see many people choosing burning as a way to die. I would think most people would choose the least painful way to die.
Wow this is morbid.

Makes you wonder, if the movie was made today how different would it be? I ask myself that question about a lot of movies/tv shows, how modern ways of thinking would change story.

It makes it sadder because the hope had when committing suicide of being released from pain isn't realized. That pain will forever be there.

I would've asked a whole lot more about what they knew of their ancestors + military service

Darn shame.

As long as you don't act silly and fawning, I think she won't think too poorly of you. Don't pull a stairs stunt to impress her like in Persuasion.

Do you think somewhere there is a parallel universe where he did allow them to come?


It was actually George II's son, Frederick, who did that. Poor Augusta. I think I would've cursed him out if I was her and slapped him away.
I really don't get why Frederick's mother was so cold with him. It's the strangest relationship. And then calling your granddaughter a "poor, ugly little she-mouse"..... what the hell Caroline?

The real George VI must be SOOOOOOOOOOOO happy Hollywood traded up in looks and got Colin Firth to play him. I liked that movie a lot.
Oh, and also, with his stutter he must've felt deficient and like he couldn't be mean to everyone, you know?

sunnykerr

I honestly don't want to keep the morbid going, but this does remind me of how you'll hear that this way of dying is the least painful way of dying or it's actually that way of dying that is the least way of dying.

I'm always, perhaps morbidly, amused when I hear stuff like that. Like, did they run a survey on the people who have died?


Times have changed in Hollywood. But this movie had a strong point of view, and it's not like it had themes or scenes that haven't aged well. If anything, maybe a Gattaca made today would have more diversity (body diversity, racial diversity, sexual diversity, etc.). Or the movie might lean harder on the problematic nature of messing with kids' DNA when it comes to erasing diversity...

In a sense, the whole "point" of Jerome disappears if he doesn't end up killing himself. I don't love seeing it that way, but the character was meant to show that, even with all the planning in the world, you can't guarantee success and humans have a hard enough time as it is dealing with hardships and perceived failure... messing with DNA only would heighten that.


To me, that's part of the genius of the movie. I mean, like I said before, big nightmare fuel. But the fact that suicide is never the answer... can you think of a better way to illustrate that than by having the person's death have literally no impact (or just enough to make things a bit worse) on their circumstances?

Anyway, trying to get away from morbid...

The movie's gorgeous. It spends most of its time in the "good place," if you will. And it's stunning and beautiful and uplifting. There's something about the types of lens they picked... like, at no point was this an animated movie, but certain scenes were like bringing paintings to real life. Gorgeous.


Sometimes, when I'm walking and the stars start to come out, I start "talking" to my ancestors who, 100-200 years ago were also walking beneath those same stars. I try to think of people on the other side of the world who are also watching those same stars. (I realize it doesn't work that way... I'm just using my imagination.)

I'd want to talk to my ancestors and tell them that they are not forgotten... which is darn silly since I have no clue who they are... but you get the point. I want to know them. To remember them. To honour them.


Considering I'm about twice as old as Louisa Musgrove, I would certainly hope not to put my life in danger just to impress a man who's clearly destined to marry another.

I don't know. As I've mentioned before, I can't vouch for my ability to remain cool in the presence of a celebrity. And Jane Austen isn't "just" a celebrity to me. She's an icon. She's a legend...


Maybe. I do think it must have weighed on him for the rest of his life. They were close. Looked like freaking twins. The fact that he's the reason they all died...

I mean, I'm assuming they knew at the time that the Czar and his family were killed. I know it was hushed up in Russia/the nascent USSR, but surely intelligence communities worldwide knew the truth and, if they did, then the King of England had to have been told.

It was ruthless of him to prevent his cousin and that cousin's family to be saved. I wonder if that ruthlessness would extend to being able to live with that decision afterwards, once it the consequences came to light. I can't imagine a normal person living with that. But then a King of England is, yes, normal like the rest of us in many ways, but maybe not in their ability to justify their lives and decisions.


Caroline of Ansbach reminds me of Victoria in many ways, only way smarter. Because Caroline had her own children vaccinated against smallpox back when it was thought to be almost witchcraft. The woman believed in science, can you imagine?

But, like Victoria, she apparently had no love for babies. Victoria said they looked like frogs.

They did have weirdly emotional-but-distant relationships with their kids. Both obviously prefered their husbands to their children... which is sweet, if you're romantic, but kinda disturbing, too.

Honestly, the real George VI is one of the few old-timey monarchs that I find not too ugly. And that's darning with faint praise if there ever was, huh? What I mean is I find him fairly good-looking, and without his older brother's smarminess. Of course, he smoked like a chimney, hence dying of lung cancer. I mean, they all do. But the point is, I have a hard time crushing on anyone I know to be a heavy smoker. Because I have to imagine my crushes smell nice.

Anyway everyone would pale compared to Colin Firth, for sure. (And if Colin Firth smoke, please, no one tell me.)

The bit in the movie where he talks about his brother Johnny... Prince John had epilepsy, which worsened as he reached puberty and he was eventually removed from the public eye and taken care of on a farm or something. And then he died of his condition during his teenage years. Now, George VI would have been much older than the youngest of the six kids, but stuttering and having epilepsy may have seen similar enough to him to wonder or to identify with his baby brother.

Sometimes we learn compassion through pretty hard lessons.

LilMouse

Exactly.
Like how people say drowning is the most peaceful way to go. How can a person know this????? And no, I would not want to drown. Being that I never learned how to swim, drowning sounds like a nightmare.

Same with the brother. I don't remember him succeeding the way Ethan's character (blanking out on the name) did.

well said, and it's a good way to not have the movie be a sort of promotion for suicide.

this shot from the movie is gorgeous. It's like being in a Thomas Kinkade painting.

I feel the same way. I mean, I don't know the names of my ancestors who lived pre 1700s. I don't know what they looked like or what their lives were like, but I'd like to meet them and tell them they matter to me. I'd like to know what they're like.

So are you more likely to get tongue tied / giggly in front of an absolute favorite or be really quiet out of fear of embarrassing yourself?

And even if the intelligence community didn't know for sure what happened to them, the fact that the Romanovs weren't writing letters back, reaching out, tells you nothing good happened.

IDK. I imagine him retreating more and more into his stamp collection to rid himself of human connections.

She also took regular baths and liked to use soap and was called a radical for it I can't imagine a world where being clean is radical.

I feel like it's a situation where you can't relate to the kids/their interests but once they actually age into adulthood then you're able to hold a conversation with them and are therefore more interested.
Like Ewan McGregor's ex-wife said her father had no interest in her when she was a kid. But then once she grew up and could talk about more mature subjects, he started caring more.

He's not Charles II of Spain and therefore it's all good. And I feel bad for Charles II of Spain, really. He stood no chance.

I like this. Plus no one wants to kiss an ashtray.

What do you do when he has to smoke in a movie?

Speaking of Prince John, a number of years ago I watched this documentary about him. It's really good, though I do have to warn you 18 minutes in they show video of people have epileptic seizures in the early 20th century, and the fact that they're just being videoed and no one is trying to help in any way is hard to stomach.

sunnykerr

Ethan's character was named Vincent. Don't ask me why I remember these things. I don't remember Uma Thurman's character's name or anyone else's for that matter. Just Jerome and Vincent.

Vincent's brother was like Jerome, but on a more bargain-level. That was the point of Jerome. His parents were filthy rich and paid the megabucks to have a winner for a son. And his swimming career was good, but he wasn't Michael Phelps.


It is anything but a promotion of suicide. I won't say more because, should you ever see it, I don't want to spoil anything. So, yeah, I'll just say it doesn't promote suicide.

And that shot is a good taste of what the movie looks like, except it doesn't just stick with painting. It's art. And, like, I don't usually get movies about art. The movie is not about art, it's just surrounded by it in every shot. Maybe that's why I get this one.


I think it's obvious by now that, while no expert, I am passionate about history. And still I can't imagine the lives of my ancestors. My grandmother gave birth to six 10lbs-plus babies at home. And that's, like, the tip of a very large iceberg.

I'd love to see my ancestors' lives. To really get to know them.


It's a toss-up. If I have my wits about me, I'll stay as quiet as I can. But I do get verbal diarrhea when I'm uncomfortable, which inevitably leads to massive auto-flaggelationa afterwards. "Why wouldn't you just shut up?"

I'm one of those people other people think can't possibly be introverted because my default is to fill a silence with endless jibber-jabber. I am introverted. I'm just not shy.

I think I'm getting better at it. But it's deeply ingrained.

How's your reaction to meeting famous or admired people?

Yup. And, thinking of people who have lost family in the Holocaust, it's even worse when you pretty much know what happened, but you also don't really know what happened for sure


I vaguely remember researching for a paper and coming across some bylaws of... I want to say Boston, but like really back in the day. And, basically, it was either illegal or at least really badly seen to take baths, unless it was under the advise of a doctor.

I gotta say, the smell factor alone is one of the many reasons why I'm so grateful to be living in the time I live in.


I'm sure that played into it. They wouldn't be the first to have no idea what to do with a human that can't communicate what it wants or needs. Or that doesn't understand commands or directions. I remember an interview with a local author who talked about his post-partum depression because he had no idea what to do with a child he couldn't communicate with. Sounded really self-involved to me at the time, but I can see why it would not be the easiest thing.


Sounds like my dad. Although, in my dad's case, it was a matter of being utterly incapable of handling the responsibility of a human being depending on him. He had a rough childhood, poor dude, and was given too much responsibility too soon due to his father not being around.

I mean, I'm very much of the school of "don't have kids if you can't handle the fact that they'll rely on you," but my dad turned out to be an amazingly decent guy the second I could stand on my own two feet. And it wasn't that he didn't care before. I really do thing he just couldn't handle it.


Meh. Charles II was still Charles, King of Spain. He could afford to be ugly.


That, too!


People smoke. People I love smoke. In a movie, he's playing a character who smokes. It's not him.

But, yeah, that is generally the way I feel about actors when I see them playing roles. Even when it comes to nudity. Obviously, it must be different for them because it's their body, but I don't feel like I'm seeing their bits, but the character's bits.

Oooh, thank you. I don't think I've seen that one and lord knows I love me a historical documentary. And no worries. The most popular TV show in the history of here had an epileptic character and they didn't shy away from showing what that looked like... even though that was obviously an actor playing a part.

But I also grew up during the AIDS epidemic, and if you want disturbing images of people suffering to the point of death without any help, you need look no further than what was going on back then.

LilMouse

Now the movie is back on Netflix streaming, so maybe I will watch again.

Ouch!
As someone who is tiny, I'd be afraid to have a baby at home.

Anytime I met someone at a stage door or at a Con, I always had some kind of question ready beforehand. So while I am nervous right before coming in contact with the celeb, while I'm there talking it somehow floats away and I am fine.


so ridiculous that people can't be trusted to bathe and need a "professional" watchful eye.

The thought alone is making me gag

At least it sounds like the relationship got better so you didn't totally miss out on knowing him on a personal level

I know a lot of women will (in modern days) get together with an ugly guy because he has money, but I just can't do it. I need the guy to be physically attractive to me.

Past women didn't have much choice but modern women....love yourself. Money isn't worth grossness being all over you.

sunnykerr

If you want. Now I feel like I've put pressure on you.

But it is one of those movies that I will watch if I come across it on TV.


I'm not that tiny and it's a big ouch! for me as well. It's insane what our female ancestors went through just to make sure the (human) race continued. (Obligatory parentheses because race is quite a recent invention of ours.)


Oh, that's a great idea! I'll try to focue on that next time I get flummoxed. Think of a question.


I read somewhere, a whole lot of time ago, that the men used to pee in the nearest available corner at Versailles and bugs were everywhere. Yuck.


It's not perfect, but we can carry a conversation. So long as we stay away from certain topics where the differences of generation become too difficult to navigate.


I certainly agree with the latter part of what you say, although money would certainly enter into the equation for me. If I'm honest, anyway. I certainly hope nevet to hitch my wagon to some horrendous person just to make sure the bills are paid, but I don't know that I'm romantic enough (if that's even the word) to try a relationship with a guy who wouldn't contribute his share. Regardless of the reason why he wasn't contributing, even the 150% valid ones.

As for ugliness... At the risk of sounding like someone aiming for sainthood, I genuinely don't pay that much attention to a person's looks... I mean, I do notice them, but their personality rapidly becomes what keeps me around or keeps me away.

So, yeah, it's not that I don't notice. But I have also noticed that someone I thought looked average will become better looking to me as I get to know them.

And vice versa. For instance, I used to find Will Smith quite handsome and charming until recent events...