[soldier of affinity]

But come series end, it's clear as day he will be part of the group and likely return to be Caroline's last. Hmm it's not too early to lose respect. she likes him, she missed him when he left and sent him a grad invite, then they arm locked down the field

....

[Rapunzel]

Honestly,i don't think its too late for Klaus to be redeemed.He can be a better man,i mean he saved Damon.Anyone can be redeemed,they just need some motivation and in this case Caroline will be Klaus' redemption,his true love

[soldier of affinity]

ITA with you.

This ship is so flawed but that's why it's perfect

[Ann357]

I can't imagine the staff of TVD and TO writing a proper redemption arc for Klaus. In fact, I find it pretty unbelievable that a 1000 year old character would change so completely for the love of a teenage girl especially in the short time from that will be covered by the TV shows.

From a pure entertainment point of view, not social message standpoint, I think it would be a train wreck to watch Klaus' redemption.

And the baby storyline seems an unlikely redemption path too...

[soldier of affinity]

Originally Posted by Ann357 (View Post) I can't imagine the staff of TVD and TO writing a proper redemption arc for Klaus. In fact, I find it pretty unbelievable that a 1000 year old character would change so completely for the love of a teenage girl especially in the short time from that will be covered by the TV shows. From a pure entertainment point of view, not social message standpoint, I think it would be a train wreck to watch Klaus' redemption. And the baby storyline seems an unlikely redemption path too...

But anything is possible

I CAN'T WAIT

[IBelieveInMiracles]

In my opinion, Klaus cannot be redeemed, And even if he does become less of an evil ahole that's nice but doesn't make him worthy of Caroline nor would it make any sense for her to want him. Also you can't just go redeeming everyone. Otherwise what is even the point of having villains? If they all just get forgiven for the heinous, evil things they've done what's the point? I know for some reason JP and others are obssessed with Klaus, but they have devolved into horrible writing to make Klaroline work. Instead of this crap, they just needed to accept they went too far with him as a villain and find some other reason to keep him around. Hopefully he stays on his own show and far away from Caroline. But he should've died ages ago. Good writers would have killed him ages ago.

[soldier of affinity]

Originally Posted by IBelieveInMiracles (View Post) In my opinion, Klaus cannot be redeemed, And even if he does become less of an evil ahole that's nice but doesn't make him worthy of Caroline nor would it make any sense for her to want him. Also you can't just go redeeming everyone. Otherwise what is even the point of having villains? If they all just get forgiven for the heinous, evil things they've done what's the point? I know for some reason JP and others are obssessed with Klaus, but they have devolved into horrible writing to make Klaroline work. Instead of this crap, they just needed to accept they went to far with him as a villain and find some other reason to keep him around. Hopefully he stays on his own show and far away from Caroline. But he should've died ages ago. Good writers would have killed him ages ago.

Plz. Good writers would have kept him as well. There are worse villains in shows with good writing and they lasted till the end, with Klaus the actor is good and the character had enough potential, it's not his fault if an amateur hippo is writing him, and really are we going to act like he's the only joke on this show? All of these characters are victims of getting assassinated, not even just the villains. So it's silly to single out Klaus, they're all too pathetic so you might as well complain that everyone should have died.

As a villain, they did go too far with him regarding klaroline, after Carol died it shouldn't have moved forward but they continued it anyway, and ended with Caro clearly having feelings for him. There's nothing wrong with villain/heroine ships, but he hasn't developed enough for her to suddenly act this way around him, it's half fan pandering while the other half is the writers clearly having a thing for this ship

Oh and we were joking, he can't be redeemed and even the actor doesn't approve of it, but no one can tell the hungry hippo otherwise

[sunnykerr]

Just a quick mod reminder that this is obviously a place created for having a critical look at this TV show and, hopefully, media in general.

But the one rule I will enforce on this board is that people be respectful of each other, as individuals.

I really appreciate that you're all speaking about your opinions as opinions and not as fact.

I also appreciate that you refrain from slagging off real-life people who actually exist, although if you want to criticize their professional lives, I think that's fair game.

[*Babi*]

Originally Posted by Ann357 (View Post) Didn't we see Klaus with compelled human women in reveling outfits as servants. Didn't we see him feeding on them while they were compelled? This whole argument about Klaus is confusing to me. I think it is really a "splitting hairs" argument. Klaus is also a character that should not be romanticized especially on a teen drama. He is a killer and abuser. Sure we haven't seen him rape anyone but he as physically hurt (abused) innocent human women, Caroline, and Elena and killed Jenna and Carol. Klaus viciously drowned human Carol - not a quick or fear free death.

I'm so late in the discussion but I have two comments to do:
This is a vampire show, if you don't expect them to compel, feed on humans and kill, I guess this is not the show for you

We saw Stefan doing the same while playing Twister or whatever and having a guy drink his wife (or girlfriend blood in the 20's).
These are vampires!!!!! Their characterization is right when they compel humans to feed on them or when they kill them by feeding on them. It's Caroline's romantic characterization that doesn't make any sense.
I'm not defending whoever, but people are mistaking the purpose of the thread.
It's not to discuss how bad or good Klaus, Damon, Stefan, Elena or Caroline is, but how the writers have social issues compromised in their lazy writing.
A vampire compelling someone to feed on them is what a vampire show/movie should be about unless it's Twilight and vampires actually sparkle. If this is a sensitive subject to someone, then they shouldn't watch it. There's nothing wrong with a message there because THEY'RE VAMPIRES and those don't exist in real life.

The problem is when the black people in the show are treated differently, the misogynistic messages that come along, how what Damon did to Caroline and Andie shouldn't be overlooked and joked by the female male character.
I don't agree 100% with the rewarding the bad guy arguments thrown there. I think that's a dangerous message they're giving, but some of the things said are also expected in a vampire show.

There's a line, and people who are used to supernatural fiction are used to some of those situations. If we start nitpicking everything, everyone sucks because compulsion is brain washing, but the main thing is that doesn't exist in real life. Also vampire shows are about killing people... in wars that happen there.

Now when you go enabling bad behavior this is terrible.



Also I'll have two things to say about the whole Klaus debacle... so it's okay for Tyler (and the rest of the gang) to want to kill Klaus for killing Jenna and using Elena as a blood bag but it's completely outrageous for Klaus to kill Carol after Tyler planned his death... okay then.
Klaus is a vampire... characterized as a vampire. So don't tell me about him getting romanticized when people want vampires to be fairies with fangs like Caroline. Klaus is much less romanticized than those versions of vampires... they have to be good so they can fit certain things they want to use to romanticize for whatever. Caroline will continue to be a fairy so she can move onto her next love live - upgraded from HS sweetheart to college love - which is the natural thing to happen.

Sorry if I want to see some old school dynamics in a vampire show that has nothing to do with social issues. Compulsion isn't the problem, drinking from humans isn't the issue for this is a vampire's show ffs. The problem is the more subtle messages that imply those things I mentioned above.

and sorry for those of you who are fans, but I blame this **** on Twilight. That's not a realistic vampire fiction. That is BS, a completely ooc version of vamps so the author would sell books to 12yo in addition to those older than 13. This expectation of having vampires who don't behave like vampires makes NO SENSE in vampire fiction.

[Ann357]

Originally Posted by *Babi* (View Post) I'm so late in the discussion but I have two comments to do: This is a vampire show, if you don't expect them to compel, feed on humans and kill, I guess this is not the show for you We saw Stefan doing the same while playing Twister or whatever and having a guy drink his wife (or girlfriend blood in the 20's). These are vampires!!!!! Their characterization is right when they compel humans to feed on them or when they kill them by feeding on them. It's Caroline's romantic characterization that doesn't make any sense. I'm not defending whoever, but people are mistaking the purpose of the thread.

Since you have quoted my message I assume at least some of your ire is pointed at me. I understand what the thread's intent is and I believe I have been on topic.

I enjoy TVD and am able to compartmentalize posting here verse fan girling elsewhere on I think the show does have problems as a teen show but certainly it is also a supernatural show with situations that have no direct comparison in the real world.

If you think my posts are off base or inappropriate for this thread, please contact a mod.

[*Babi*]

I didn't mean your post specifically is off base, I only meant we dug so much the discussion about a character in a way that isn't what this thread is for.
I didn't mean to offend you, Ann, I should have quoted more posts or no posts whatsoever. I just wanted to make those points. the part of your post I responded to mainly to implying how he compelled girls to feed on them - their outfits aren't relevant when I think it's clear he killed those he fed on and how the fact that he killed and compelled people makes him an abuser.
It makes him a vampire. I agree he's a bad one as he shows no remorse whereas Stefan for example shows, but it doesn't take away the fact that vampires should behave like the predators they are...

I would never see a discussion like the one we had for pages here in a show like True Blood, or a movie like Interview with The Vampire or Underworld because the sort of situation people here are so appalled about is the recurring theme in vampire fiction. Why this part of the fandom seems so shocked and disgusted by compulsion, human feed and kills is beyond me. Again, if it's something people think that shouldn't be in the show, they're watching the wrong genre.

Now Caroline and Andy's cases are completely different... compel to feed is one thing, compel to accept to have sex with someone you wouldn't want to have sex after you found out what they are, it's deeper than simply feeding and then have the main female character joke and dismiss that as if it was nothing? I think that's a wrong message to send (and this is coming from a person that think teens or whoever shouldn't have role models in TV in general)

I feel like you're offended, and I like and respect you too much to offend you, so I apologize if it seemed like I was aiming my whole post only on you or that I think you're inadequate to watch the show. I just meant that we focused so much in the bad things the characters are doing that we sort of forgot that in a vampire show that's expected... and if after we're reminded of that we still think that compulsion, feeding and killing shouldn't be part of it, I guess then we aren't fit to watch it.

Now what is not okay is to send a message that being abused sexually is okay (and should be rewarded), that the poor treatment of the black characters is okay and the not so subtle misogynistic messages thrown there all the time. Those things are problematic imo because it involves real social issues, the rest is just bad vampire being bad as they're supposed to. And then we have our personal preferences. Some prefer orphans, others kings, and we shouldn't be judged by our preferences about fictional characters. And again this part isn't aimed at you.

[wickedrum]

never realised a thread like this existed.
In fact there are so many tvd threads my head's spinning. why do you think that is? Cause comparing to Being Human and True Blood indeed, or other vampire shows, people just keep spouting theories and discussions about all happened or possible storylines. Can't say I've even seen craze to such levels, at least not on . It certainly isn't because the show is so much superior.
Don't get me wrong, I do like tvd and talking about it too, but the sheer level and volume of time and emotional energy invested into characters and pairing is puzzling for me.

[IBelieveInMiracles]

I actually pretty much agree with Babi. I'm not offended nor surprised that there is killing, feeding, compulsion, blood, etc on the show because like you said it's a vampire show. My problem is with the writers' refusal to draw a line. The show is also about relationships. It's not just about showcasing all the frightening abilities of vampires. The are writing relationships and trying to show that love is possible amongst vampires and other supernatural beings. That being the case some behaviors, like what Damon did to Andie and Caroline, should be considered unacceptable and have consequences at least for characters like Caroline who while they are yes a vampire they still have a moral code of some sort. Characters who have a sense of morality and a conscience shouldn't just accept every horrible behavior and date the person who behaved that way. Some of the vampires like Caroline or Stefan are trying to behave more like humans than monsters and thus some behaviors should be off limits. I feel like they started this show trying to say that even though someone may be a vampire they don't have to be a murderous psychopath. That's there still good and evil sides amongst vampires. Also since they are not soulless zombies like on Buffy you can expect a little more of them. And in that case there has to be a line. Otherwise it's just chaos and everything just loses meaning. So that's my issue- draw a line writers draw a line.

[posterity]

I think they knew who was morally good or bad when the show began but with KW walking out on his own show and Plec falling culprit to fan pleasing the message was lost. Now she is trying to reform rapists so that young women out there will start to believe that it is okay to find themselves romanticizing things that they would have otherwise seen for what they were.

[sunnykerr]

Redeeming rapists has been done on TV before. And it's been done successfully.

But there has to be a period where the rapist acknowlegdes what he's done and how profoundly wrong it was.

And then there has to be a period where he stuggles with what he's done.

And then a period where he genuinely, through his actions, redeems himself.

You can't handwave rape away.

You can redeem to rapist, but it's not a magic wand that's waved and voila! Done.

It has to be done judiciously.