crazy_diamond

Hello all [img]smilies/wave.gif[/img]

I've just seen the episode, oh my. So many emotions flying around. The first scene got me when Wesley thought that Fred was still there, then it dawned on him that she wasn't [img]smilies/cry.gif[/img]. The pain and hurt Wesley went through this episode, I soo felt for him [img]smilies/cry.gif[/img]. He's world has just ripped apart.

Illryia was bad, but intresting as well. Kept trying to see some part of Fred there. It wasn't till the end scene that we saw that. Illryia going to the lab, not sure why. That tells me that Fred is still alive someone, don't care what that mad doctor said about the fire of whatever!

And that scene where Illyria said Fred's last words to Wesley, oh my that did get me [img]smilies/cry.gif[/img]. Now those two are going to be working together sort of from now on. This is going to be intresting. Alexis and Amy soo rocked [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Meg I agree with your theories, Fred knew what was happening to her, she had to find a way. Her soul is still there, her memories are. I'll probably have more theories as the weeks go by. Can't believe poxy 5 weeks!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img], how can they do this to us [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Cindy, [img]smilies/love.gif[/img] your wallpaper by the way

Hi Wes&FredFan, welcome to the thread [img]smilies/wave.gif[/img]

[ 03-04-2004: Message edited wes&fred ]

simdolly

Argh. Everything about this episode said that Fred was permanantly dead, but I refuse to believe that. If her soul was consumed by (fires of resurrection was it?), then that's not a natural death, and unnatural deaths can be reversed right? Maybe with how Illyria can alter time - maybe that will be utilised, and they can stop it from ever happenning?

I don't know if i can last the 5 week break without doing spoilers. I was doing well to stay off spoiler sites, but by the time the next episode airs spoilers will be up for the finale wont they? Argh I dn't wanna spoil the end, especially as it most likrly means spoiling the very end of the series. :-( I guess anything could happen though.

She *has* to be brought back - we have so little of this show left now - maybe tradition can be broken and these two great characters can be happy together at the end.

I really really hope so.

There might well be something to that. Maybe that line explaining about the crystalization was there for a reason. I can totally see this playing a part later on, when they figure out how to get illyria out.

It's awful that Fred is dead - gotta give them credit for the powerful scenes of the last two episodes though. So long as she comes back....

What do you all think? What are ways that she could be brought back?

Michelle

*~*Rach*~*

Oh my God I know ... but Amy has done amazingly to differentiate the two characters completely; a lot of the time I found myself believing it was someone else completely, a new actress, a new big bad. And at that point ... my God, I bet my flatmates could hear me, I was yelling things through the whole ep and it was 1am so quite quiet ... but when she said Fred's last words, I actually yelled out "How dare you?"

I agree here too - there's no way Illyria would be able to say Fred's last words, recall them like that, if Fred was completely gone. It's just ... not possible.

I like how when she said the "You'll help me because I look like her," line it was actually in response to Wesley offering his help, rather than her telling him he'll help like the trailer made it sound.

But ... so this is what it's like to be unspoiled, huh? I usually know every little thing, but the last few weeks, since I've been able to watch on the day of airing, I've been avoiding the wildfeed like the plague, which is a new level of willpower for me! Basically all I knew about that episode was that Wes was going to find out Gunn's part in everything, Wes was going to kill Knox, and Illyria would survive the episode.

I *loved* Wes's little tests at the beginning - Alexis played them so calmly, asking if she knew who Winifred Burkle was ... I completely wasn't expecting the axe to the head, even though as soon as he swung it I knew it wouldn't do any serious damage. Reminded me of Buffy, when the Bringer came up behind Giles, in the way they cut to the credits before it connected, just like they went to end credits in Buffy. But seriously - I've always been so spoiled that this is the *only* time Angel has ever made me gasp like that. And then when he stabbed Gunn? An even bigger gasp - even though I don't like Gunn (never have) and think he deserves all he gets; that's a side issue here. I mean ... just ... wow. Alexis was awesome, he played Wes's grief in that calm way where you know something is going to snap, you're just never quite sure what.

The flashback at the end was just ... so ... sad. Especially with the song, and the hugging, and everything just being so normal ... and nothing is normal for Fred any more. I mean, it hasn't been for a long time, but it just shows how much she's changed since she left Texas and I don't know where this paragraph is actually going other than me wanting to give her a big hug myself!

I was very surprised that Wes was the only one who wasn't in denial about Fred being truly dead, but it worked so very well. I mean, he was there when she died and they weren't, so he *would* understand it more than them, I just didn't expect it and I loved that they did it like that. It just made it even sadder. And every time his voice almost broke, trying to stop himself from crying ... I just lost it again.

When Angel was talking to Wes, trying to take some of the blame for what happened to Fred, I was yelling "But you said to hell with the world!" and even if he had decided right away that Fred needed to be helped, there was no way he could have gotten the sarcouphagus back to England in time to save her. If Angel's going to try and use that one as an excuse, then he may as well blame Wesley for sending them there without the sarcophagus. I mean, I know what he was trying to say, I just think he could have worded his argument better *nods*

Watching Wesley pack up Fred's things was, I think, one of the saddest visuals I've seen on Buffy or Angel. It didn't *need* words, it was just so moving on it's own, and the song just complimented it so well. You could just tell how hard it was for him.

I just can't help thinking how Wesley would have reacted if he had managed to kill Illyria with that first blow. He just calmly did it without thinking, practically; if it had actually worked, I think he would have locked himself away again like after Billy, or totally snapped and gone after everyone. With her gone, he'd feel like he had nothing to focus on and probably would have gone for the kill with Gunn. I don't know, this is just my ramblings, and there are a lot of different possibilities for that because Wes is a very complex guy; but whatever would have happened, it didn't, and therefore doesn't matter!

As for bringing her back, I really do see it happening. They just seem to be making it so absolutely blatantly clear that she CAN NOT BE BROUGHT BACK that they'll manage to do a u-turn on us in order to shock us. Or, they'll try to double bluff us into thinking what I've just said, and then not bring her back, but then I really don't see that happening! I just think ... I think she'll be back. I believe that the more time she spends with Wesley, the less Illyria will be like Illyria, and the more she'll be like Fred. She'll remember more things about Fred and how she feels/felt, and maybe the fact that parts of Fred are still alive in Illyria will mean that Fred's soul wasn't completely consumed like the doctor assumed it was. We don't know how much he knew - Illyria mightn't have come back in the way he expected. After all, Fred was supposed to be a complete shell, and yet parts of her brain and her memories are still there? That suggests to me that she *isn't* just a shell. So maybe the doctor was wrong about other things, too?

On a side note, Tracey, we must tell Aly how proud we are of Alexis, lmao!

SpySyd

Guys,I don't know why,I can't explain it...but I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Fred.She'll be back(I'm not spoiled).

Amy Acker blew me off in this ep.She was SO believable as Illyria [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

tnBella

Squee!!! I loved this episode! AA and AD rocked. Both performances were chilling. I really enjoyed their scenes together. And because of those wonderful Wes/Illyria moments, I was able to finish one of my fics and have already started on another. I'm so excited now!

lara- I pm'd my fic to you

Don't get me wrong, guys. I love W/F as much as all of you, but Wes and Illyria are HOT. Sorry, but they are, and I may end up writing a ship fic for them before the end of this season. I like their chemistry.

::ducks as various objects are thrown in disgust::

Don't hurt me. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

crazy_diamond

Me too, the first scene where you still saw the tears on his face and also when he appeared in Gunn's office. Just told them straight out, no messing. He was ready to face it when all the others wouldn't.

Oh God, when he picked up Fred's bunny and smiled and you could tell that he was about to cry, but held it in. Just so heartbreaking [img]smilies/cry.gif[/img]

I agree with you there Rach, I think he would have totally snapped.

Yes we sure are [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Side note: Read that Joss wrote and directed the scenes in the apartment and that Joss and Steve DeKnight wrote the last Wesley/Illyria scene.

[ 03-04-2004: Message edited wes&fred ]

crazy_diamond

Amy was just absolutely superb in that eppy. It's like Fred never existed, not until the last scene with Wesley [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

They did rock, intresting where this Wes/Illyria relationship will go

Don't worry Ann, we won't hurt you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

@-'- Lara -'-@

Ann and Pamcakes, I've PMed you responses. Hope they help!

It's been so interesting reading everyone's takes on what happened last night. I'm so psyched by this story arc in one way and yet still crying over it in others. Dang, what a position to be in.

However, I have my thoughts about Fred. I posted them here if anyone is interested in reading. Focuses on why I don't think Fred is gone, with emphasis on the musical montage at the end.

Sweet Southern Comfort

That episode struck the hearts of all of us here. It was very touching and very special. The scene at the end with Wesley packing up her stuff was very touching and I almost burst into tears.

It's amazing how the soul of Fred could touch the lives of all who surround her. And I know if she had also known the Scooby Gang, she would have affected them the same way.

I believe that she will be brought back. You could tell especially when she went into her lab while Wesley was there packing up her things. Illyria didn't "know" why she was there. Maybe it was the soul of Fred that led her there.

We'll just have to see what happens.

[ 03-04-2004: Message edited Sweet Southern Comfort ]

Liliya

I just got done watching the ep and all I have to say is...wow. It was so sad, especially when Wes was packing up all of Fred's things, and with that song...I almost cried.

Amy was amazing in this episode. She played Illyria really well, and she pulled off all the scenes woundefully.

I especially loved the last scene with Wes and Illyria, a little bit of Fred was defintely coming out. It's going to be interesting to see where everything goes.

[ 03-04-2004: Message edited Liliya ]

crazy_diamond

Dana I agree with you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], I believe that it was Fred's soul that did lead her there. Her soul still exists.

I think we're soo one the right track guys about Fred being alive still. I mean we were right about Knox [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ 03-04-2004: Message edited wes&fred ]

justsmile

Welcome All the Newbies I'm meg, I hope you guys don't be shy [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Also How rude of me. Cindy your latest wallpaper is stunning. Great job.

I like all the points everyone has mentioned.

Fred's not gone in my opinion. I also Have my big (really big) review posted Here

meg

red queen

Hey guys, I'm still totally wrecked form last nights ep. It was so horribly sad.

I've got a new video to help everyone sob some more! Just what you needed, right?

It's posted on my LJ, because I hate to direct link from big boards like this:

Yesterday by The Beatles (Wes/Fred, Angel/Cordy)

Sweet Southern Comfort

Meg your review is fantastic! I couldn't agree with you more.

Red Queen I'm downloading the video. It should be up soon and I'll be back to tell you what I thought of it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Be back soon. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sweet Southern Comfort

Red QueenI watched the video and I thought it was wonderful. You did a excellent job! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]