LemonyPie

You're very welcome too! *tips imaginary hat right back* And you know, the thing with Andy and Madison...it's a tricky one. I think Andy actually was trying to take a lot of time to contemplate the right thing to do, he went to Harold for advice, he was trying to look at it from all angles, and he ended up deciding what he really thought was best for Ephram (which was understandable, IMO, but we'll probably get to that later when we talk about controversial opinions about Andy ).

But you're definitely right in that he was seemingly only thinking about the short-term, not taking into account the fact that Ephram would very likely find out about it someday, not thinking through the consequences to his relationship with Ephram, et cetera. Moreover, he was making a decision that he didn't really have a right to make.

Dolfan13

Some awesome thoughts everyone!!

I think that Ephram's best (and most mature) moment came with his talk with Nina in "Goodbye, Love." He was being selfish telling her about his dad but he was finally being selfish for not himself but for his dad. That is when he and Andy's arc finally had its true closure, in my opinion.

To the writers credit, I think that, at the end of the day, they did a great job of still making us (or most of us ) root for him to be happy. It was realistic that he had a lot of faults for someone his age and it's better than having a cookie-cutter main character who does no wrong since people can relate to him in different ways. If he had too many faults, it wouldn't be worth watching. And if he was Mr. Goody Two Shoes, then it'd be boring.

everwoodfan52

Amen, Dolfan.

LemonyPie

This thread really works! Already three pages on the first topic.

Good point. For me, in seasons 3 and 4, I didn't actively root for Ephram to be happy. I didn't really care too much anymore either way. He kind of became like a background character to me in those seasons due to what I consider an extreme dulling of his personality and a greater list of annoying/unlikable things he ended up doing in those seasons. But yes, I ultimately did want him to be happy due to his new sense of compassion and the desire to help other people (like his students).

But in seasons 1 and 2--even though Ephram was often volatile and silly in his fights with Andy and such--I thought he was much more likable. He was a character I felt for and rooted for most of the time because he had a good heart, he actually seemed more mature in a lot of situations than he did in season 3 and 4, he was passionate, he was realistic, one could easily feel most of his emotions as an angsty and awkward teenager, et cetera.

What do you guys all think? Overall, did you find early Ephram more likable or later Ephram?

----

By the way, does anyone have any other controversial opinions about Ephram besides his physical attractiveness or likability?

everwoodfan52

Yes, Lemony...this is definitely a successful thread!!
I'm just hoping that no one becomes offended by what is said here. None of us are experts on all of these topics...we're just sharing our feelings. I just hope that if what any of us says is considered insensitive or hurtful to anyone..that we would share those feelings with each other via PM. No one should keep these feelings inside.

I will come back to tackle your other Ephram question when I get home from work!

LemonyPie

Agreed! But I hope and I'm sure nobody would be offended! One of the great things about this forum in particular is that we are able to have these lively debates (or maybe just discussions, I wouldn't even call them "debates" really) while still respecting other people's different opinions and trying to learn from them.

On other forums I've been on, it hasn't always been that way at all. A lot of people on there got super heated about their opinions, were rude and narrow-minded, and didn't even want to or try to see other people's points of view. It made for some really pointless and futile debates. Discussions on here are so much more fun, interesting, and productive, IMO.

Looking forward to it!

After Ephram's character is done, who do you all think should be next up?

everwoodfan52

Harold!!!!

LemonyPie

Agreed!!

'Tos

Yes! What a success this has been. Dolfan, you are two for two! What else have you got up that sleeve of yours? Hee.

Speaking of awesome thoughts! to all of that! I love that idea of Ephram being selfish, but for someone else. Fantastic. And it may also be a case of him not thinking things through, but that coming out in the best of ways. He just did that, he felt the need to help his dad and he did it and it was amazing. It reminds of me of the Postcard scene where he just lays all his feelings out in front of him for Amy. Coming out of his comfort zone and just saying what he feels straight out. And it was amazing then too.

As far as the early Ephram vs later Ephram question Lemony posed, I still find S4 as his best season. I think he was most sympathetic in S1 with the aura of Julia over him, but I think he was the best Ephram he could be in S4. I felt fulfilled in S4, that after all the mistakes and all the flaws, we were seeing hints of what kind of man Ephram was becoming, and it was a pretty cool man.

I wonder if that's a controversial opinion you have there, Lemony, about finding Ephram more mature during the early seasons, because most people seemed to like Ephram in S4 a lot, but, who knows! Maybe not.

Seconded in a big way. Thanks for saying that, Betty. The point of this thread is for new perspectives to come out and for discussion to be had, not for feelings to be hurt. We all love these characters and we're all pretty protective of a few of them (Can we do Andy and Hannah last? ), but I think because we love all these characters, it's going to be fun coming up with things we don't love about them.

everwoodfan52

I believe that Ephram was more "cool" than Bright and had much more sex appeal...and that Hannah was pretty shallow preferring Bright over him.

Dolfan13

I agree on hoping no one gets upset. I forgot to post that in the original post. This is just meant for fun!

I'm thinking with Hanukkah, Christmas Eve and Christmas coming up, we'll have one more topic (Harold) for those five days or so.

We'll finish up any more Ephram thoughts today and then go with Harold tomorrow!

Also, thanks everyone for the support. This wouldn't be a success without each of you!

'Tos

Good plan, Dolfan. Uh oh, Harold! Dun dun dun.

I agree that he was cooler, for sure. From New York, interesting past, unique. He had so much going for him. Everyone at County High was nuts to not want to be friends with Ephram.

everwoodfan52

Piano alone made him cooler that Bright...add to that his interesting past...his unique personality/humor....the fact that he knows Geography! ..He's definitely got it all over Bright.

Thief Of Love

Not that this should shock anyone, but I tend to agree that Ephram really should have held more appeal for Hannah than he actually did. The Ephram who presented himself early in their friendship, such as it was, demonstrated some level of even emotional connection to what she was dealing with, besides offering intellectual compatibility. She could still go with Bright and I could get that, but it always seemed a little funny to me that she so completely dismissed his attraction.

On the other hand, I can understand to some extent why Ephram wasn't more popular with peers or girls in particular. It's not that he wasn't cool in his ways or someone who was certainly capable of connecting with others, but he generally presented a fairly standoffish demeanor. It's a situation with which I emphathize, but it also tends to result in others offering you as much space as they assume you want. In Everwood, it seems it also resulted in others responding to Ephram's presentation of superiority (deliberate or perceived). He could have been cooler or more well-liked, but the work would have to come from him, and he seemed fine enough with a small circle.

LemonyPie

I've gotta say that while I would personally find Ephram to be cooler (from NYC, into anime/manga, piano genius, et cetera), it didn't surprise me at all that Bright was considered cooler by most people in Everwood. After all, he was a football star, the class clown type of guy, the traditional "guy's guy", best friends with Colin, brother to one of the prettiest and most popular girls in school...

In the end, I think I ended up liking Bright as a person better than Ephram though.

And as for Hannah and Ephram vs Bright...well, it's back to the "opposites attract" thing, I suppose. Bright represented everything Hannah was curious about and many things she probably wished she was (more outgoing, more spontaneous, etc), so there was probably a greater attraction. Same with Bright in regards to Hannah; she had a lot of the qualities Bright was trying to cultivate within himself, so it seemed very fitting that they fell in love.