everwoodfan52

Ephram definitely did not have classic good looks. I will agree there. And....his hair seasons 3 and 4 was hideous...even AB Chao turned on him!

I understand what you're saying, Lemony...but I have to stick up for Ephram here. I agree that Ephram pushed Kyle much to much in regard to the dance...I guess he just wanted Kyle to have a social life...thought that would make him happy, and he saw that this girl was actually interested in Kyle.

As far as the way Ephram handled Kyle when there was a possibility that he was gay...yes, Ephram acted meddlesome...but I don't believe he was bordering on homophobia. Ephram considered himself a parent to Kyle and he acted how most parents would act in these circumstances.....naturally there would be some incredulousness and doubt in the beginning..It is natural to want to protect your child from this....they know how society is. Ephram wanted Kyle to be happy...he had so many other negatives in his life...so Ephram tried to deny this.
But...when he realized that Kyle really was gay....Ephram was truly wonderful with him.

Forwood4Bamon

I loved Ephram. I always have since day one. My friend loves ephram too. and my friend does not like harold either.

'Tos

Yeah, I agree with you completely on Ephram and his views on Kyle's sexuality, Betty. I never saw that as juvenile either, I saw it as realistic. The parent comment is bang on! Very well said.

I really liked that Ephram took a small journey in that episode, trying to grasp what he thought about Kyle being gay. It was less about Ephram not wanting Kyle to be gay or trying to prove that he's not, and more about him not really understanding that someone that young can be gay. But when he understood it, when he got his thoughts together, he accepted it fully and completely. I thought that was a lovely episode for S4 Ephram, showing him going through that journey from confusion to understanding to acceptance.

I'm curious to know what you thought of that, Lemony, if you still think that was unlikable or how you saw it. I've always saw Ephram in that episode that way, but you have already opened up my eyes to seeing things on some shows a different way, so, yeah, how did you view his actions and thoughts in that episode?

The Reid thing, though, I'll agree on fully. Not his best moment. He wasn't perfect in S4, but I think he was at his best. But another instance of him acting selfish was when he first came back to town, he still had an attitude towards Andy. It took him some time to become the Ephram I was proud to see, as he was an ass for an episode or two after he came back too!

Taryn74

You guys have absolutely no idea how relieved I am. I really thought there was just something there that I was not seeing.

jediwands

Definitely not! Back in the day when all the comments came in about Ephram's hotness physically, I had to bite my tongue and allow the comments to flow. LOL.

everwoodfan52

I wasn't here, back in the day, and I can't imagine all of these comments about Ephram's physical hotness. As I said...he was hot to me for reasons that were not Physical.

Taryn, what did you generally think of Ephram?

LemonyPie

I definitely thought it was a parental thing too, but still...not the way a parent should behave in such a situation, IMO.

Yeah, that was the other thing. It seemed very strange that Ephram would say Kyle is "too young" to be gay. First of all, he was 15 or 16-years-old, if I recall correctly. That's way past the age of puberty for most kids nowadays. And by the time Ephram was 15/16, he obviously knew he was straight. He was already interested in girls, interested in Amy...He would have never thought that he himself or Amy or Colin or anyone else was "too young" to realize they were straight.

So, in an indirect way, it's a sort of homophobic statement to make that someone can be too young to be gay and yet not too young to be straight. It seems to indicate that a gay orientation is so abnormal that it can't even be viewed in the same developmental light as a straight orientation or something...I don't even know. I know Ephram did not deliberately mean it in a homophobic way though, but if he truly thought that gay and straight kids were equal, he probably wouldn't have even subconsciously maintained such a divisive belief.

Thank you! And well, I too was glad that Ephram ended up accepting it and all, and it was good that he eventually had that conversation with Kyle during which he told him that it wasn't wrong and that he should be himself, but I still think the way he went about the whole thing for most of the episode was immature, unlikable, and not what would have been best for Kyle.

He was definitely meddling in his personal business way too much (especially because he is not Kyle's dad, no matter how much he felt like it), and he was probably making him feel like being gay was wrong, as he tried to force him to go to the dance with that girl a lot of times despite his protestations. Trying to deny that someone is gay or trying to force them into an opposite-sex situation to be "normal" is hurtful and frustrating. I know that Ephram was trying to protect Kyle from society, and I'm not saying that he had ill intentions or anything like that, but he could have handled it in a more mature, understanding, and supportive way from the start (rather than only at the end). And yes, many parents make the same mistake, I agree, but it doesn't make it less of a mistake.

Taryn74

I liked him. Is that what you are asking? I think he's a very passionate person, he feels and loves deeply. He could be a brat sometimes (most of the time in some seasons ), but he was overall a good kid and was growing into a good person. I think he could be a little full of himself, but like Andy it was borne more out of confidence than arrogance.

'Tos

Yeah, I can totally see what you mean there completely. It's well said and well thought out. I guess that I think that that's a realistic thought for a regular straight person who hasn't had any interaction with anyone with a different sexuality to have? That doesn't make it right, but that's how I viewed that belief there. I also do think that as him thinking he was a parental figure for Kyle, he viewed Kyle as younger than he really was in a way?

I did like Reid's response (he did something!) about how it wasn't too young at all, and I thought that got the ball rolling in Ephram's mind that this is something he's going to have to rethink and he did. I guess I think that it was new for Ephram, which is something I like so much about the episode because it takes him out of his comfort zone and gets him to reevaluate his thought process and he handles it well at a certain point.

As far as the girl, I don't think sexuality and forcing Kyle to not be gay came into Ephram's mind at all there. I agree with Betty that it had to do with him thinking Kyle should be more social...which is ironic since Ephram, even by S4, barely had any friends of his own to speak of. Did he try to get Kyle to interact with the girl once he realized that he may be gay? I can't remember. If so, I'd agree, that's a problem, but I do think the times he did try to have Kyle interact with her, he thought he was helping Kyle. The girl was cute. BUT. coupled with him thinking that someone couldn't know they were gay at a young age, it makes Ephram come off as naive, so I completely see how you're getting that view. I guess I think Ephram saw them as separate events, but it's a little ambiguous.

jediwands

That's exactly right. I am not sure why being straight means it's realistic to question the age of sexuality or the validity of it just because this person has a different sexual orientation. The same can be said for someone who is gay or bisexual then, questioning someone who is straight because they have never experienced those feelings or sexuality either.

To me, it's the same or not. There should be no difference.

LemonyPie

Oh, I don't doubt that it's realistic. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of straight people who haven't had any experience with LGBT kids would have a lot of naive beliefs about them. The same is true for gay people about bi people, for gay and bi people about straight people, and so on. Of course, this isn't limited to sexualities either, but to all cultures/beliefs/people that are unfamiliar with each other. But I think it's a sign of maturity and thoughtfulness to reserve judgement and to withhold assumptions about any people/culture/belief one is not familiar with until they become educated enough about the subject.

Hmmm...I'm pretty sure Ephram was still trying to get Kyle to go out with the girl even after thinking he might be gay. I'm not 100% sure. Maybe Betty knows?

It's definitely ignorance and a failure to look a situation objectively, which can have harmful effects even if the intentions are anything but.

'Tos

Very well stated. That's a truism about prejudice in general, that people aren't educated enough about something, so they make hastened judgements based on...nothing. Which is sad. I do think why Ephram did that at this point is that he is an emotional guy. He's never been known to think things through. He wears his heart on his sleeve and makes snap decisions--such as not taking the audition, leaving Everwood, trashing Amy when if he took some time and thought about things, I think he'd make some different decisions in all those cases, I think that initial view about Kyle not being old enough to be gay is just another example in that line of not thinking things through and that he'd make a different choice if he had thought things through more. Luckily, he did think things through before going to actually see Kyle. Can you imagine if Snap Judgement Ephram went to see him before talking with Reid or Amy (one of my favourite Ephram/Amy moments in S4) and thinking it through by himself?

That's also what I liked about him more in S4, by the way. Those talks with Andy allowed Ephram to gather his thoughts before taking action more often. I think him realizing that he needed to sit down and think things through with someone else was a sign that he was going to grow up into someone pretty cool.

Hmm, and I just skimmed through the episode and you're right, Lemony. Ephram does push for Kyle to go the dance after he had the conversation with Reid about the possibility of Kyle being gay!! I had that all wrong. He does push Kyle to do so under the pretenses of him being more social, but...hmm...yeah, Ephram, boy, that does not look good at all. Eesh. Well, it looks like Snap Judgement Ephram DID go to see him after all. In every case that that Ephram comes out, it's Ephram at his very worst just like it is there with him pushing Kyle to go to the dance when he was thinking about Kyle being gay.

everwoodfan52

Yes, that is what I was asking!

Lemony, it is definitely harmful/hurtful to force someone into an opposite-sex situation. Ephram didn't do that with any knowledge that Kyle was gay. He just thought that Kyle was being anti-social like he was and didn't want to go to the dance.
Later, when Reid speculated that Kyle may be gay, Ephram reacted understandably. He wasn't sure of this...he wanted to protect kyle. He didn't present any of these doubts to Kyle...that would have been a mistake. Instead, when Ephram spoke to Kyle and got kyle to admit that he was gay, now he knew that Kyle was gay...and he was so supportive. His words were perfect. I can't fault Ephram at all for any of his actions.

I totally agree with this. As I have told you in the past, I have had very young students who were certainly gay...not something they chose..but obviously something that they were presented with at birth.

LemonyPie

Thank you! And that's an excellent point. Throughout the series, Ephram constantly acted on impulses, explosive emotions, et cetera, without thinking things through as much as he should have. He was not one who instinctively or deliberately decided to hold his horses, sit down and contemplate a situation objectively, and then act accordingly. Probably a lot of his fights with Andy would have been avoided if he had cultivated more restraint and the ability to look at all sides of a situation earlier in his life, but I do think/hope his talks with Andy helped him to realize that a level head and an open mind are almost always necessary if he wanted to be the best "parent" he could be to Kyle--and to be a better person in general.

Mm, yeah, that's what I thought. If I recall correctly, it seemed like he thought he could possibly make Kyle straight by exposing him to a straight relationship or something...Very odd indeed.

'Tos

You're very welcome and thank you. *tips imaginary hat* Exactly to everything you said. He and Andy were like that (at least to some degree with Andy) which is not a good mix when they're fighting each other in the same way, heh. I do think Andy learned at some point in maybe the end of S3 (because his S2 decision to urge Madison to not tell Ephram about the baby and leave town is the epitome of this snap judgement/not looking at things from all sides thing, because it was so clearly short term gain over long term massive pain), so I surely hope it doesn't take Ephram to get to Andy's age there to figure it out.