[PJ_always87]

Originally Posted by obisgirl (View Post) I'm re-watching parts of season 3 and watched the season 4 premiere. Joey was miserable after she broke up with Pacey in season 3, and then Dawson comes to this awesome realization that he's being selfish to her and lets her go, then in the season 4 premiere, he's still behaving like a child. I don't know, 20 years on and I still can't find it to actually like Dawson Leery.

I agree with this. I recently re-watched the series thinking my perspective of Dawson would change. He actually appears worse than he did before because my standards for men changed as I got older.

He was dancing with Joey in True Love while she looked miserable and pretended half heartedly to plan for their summer vacation together. Only when he realized he would literally be stuck with a version of Joey that felt as if she was trapped did he bend. Plus he used the words "you're free" which is so unattractive and shocking. Free to do what? Fall in love with someone else?

I also feel that he didn't expect her to be gone the entire summer, and probably felt she would spend a week with Pacey and run back. I feel that's why he had that look on his face in the season 4 premiere. He realized that the feelings between them were more serious than the had hoped.

[Butterfly85]

I agree, Dawson telling Joey she was free was just another thing showing that he treated Joey like she was his property or his slave. Just another layer of how disturbing and sick his behavior was when he was forcing her to settle for him, and being manipulative and emotionally abusive. Joey can be free to love who she wants just like he was free to always shove Jen and Eve in her face to show her he's moved on, but Joey can't. Like I said, he's always had the mentality that he can move on but Joey can't. Now that I'm older I realized even more that he's a selfish, self absorbed douchebag. He's also very mean spirited and abusive when he doesn't get what he wants. Especially towards Pacey with the things he said about him when he was drunk on his birthday, easily assuming Pacey stole the SAT test, and the things he said to and about Pacey when he found about about he and Joey. So it's only fitting that Pacey was the MVP of "Dawson's" Creek lol. So it's no coincidence or accident that a majority of DC fans hate Dawson, he's an ahole. Plain and simple.

[PJ_always87]

A lot of fans said he improved in season 4, but I didn't think so. His obsession with Joey's virginity, combined with her desperation to save face for Dawson's feelings surrounding that was a recipe for disaster. Instead of Pacey enjoying the fact that he was now physical with his girlfriend, he had to hide in shame. I feel this contributed to his insecurities.

Meanwhile Dawson was asking Pacey if he could date his sister, but he was half assedly dating her, since as I said, he was too busy feeling bitter over the fact that Pacey beat him to the prize of Joey's virginity. I feel he never got over this, which is why it came up again end of season 6 when Pacey lost all of Dawson's money.

[Butterfly85]

Dawson was a little better, but I agree he was still being a prick at the beginning of S4. Especially acting like everything was Pacey's fault and Joey was a saint for them both being together. I always found Dawson's obsession with Joey's virginity creepy and gross and it was even dumber for Joey to cater to his feelings about it when it was none of his damn business. I agree he never got over that or the P/J relationship in general. He knew he could never measure up to Pacey in Joey's heart and in general.

[PJ_always87]

I thought it was odd that he was waiting for Joey in order to lose his virginity, as if he thought she wouldn't sleep with her boyfriend after dating him for nearly a year. The very idea that he turned down Gretchen because of that is laughable. It just did not come across as believable, and it made him look ridiculous, since it appeared as if he was waiting for his friends' relationship to fail.

[Butterfly85]

I agree, he's a loser lol. Even though I kind of liked Dawson/Gretchen, she ultimately deserved better. She was too mature for a baby like Dawson at the end of the day.

[PJ_always87]

I think Dawson does not have good sexual chemistry with anyone, so I cannot say that I shipped him with anyone. I often thought it would have been neat it Dawson came out as asexual, and they wrote a storyline about him navigating romantic relationships in light of this but they did not take this angle.

The other thing is Gretchen looked so much older than Dawson, and was gorgeous, so I found the pairing unbelievable.

[Butterfly85]

I wasn't a huge fan of Dawson/Gretchen I just think it was his most tolerable relationship since he wasn't good at all with Joey or Jen. It's just last time I rewatched S4 I liked them a little more than I used to, but I can take them or leave them lol. I also agree though that it's unrealistic that a college girl would date a (very immature) high school boy. Just like I find it crazier now that Joey dated that AJ guy that was a college student. Huh? Get real.

[PJ_always87]

How come you didn't like him with Jen?

I did not like them either, because I thought he treated Jen poorly, but they were better than Gretchen and Dawson if only because he had a slightly better chemistry with her than Gretchen and they came across as more believable from an age perspective.

AJ was a bit more believable because the actor looked so young that I could believe he was no older than 19, lol. Although him being a TA of a freshman class at that age is nothing short of laughable.

EDIT - In my season 2 watch Dawson reliving his love story in a movie that his film teacher eviscerates is pretty sad because he comes across like a huge creep. It's almost as if he has zero imagination and has to always borrow from the events in his real life. It's pretty sad to see that even in the series finale, he is still reliving his life all over again. He is in the same place he was in at the age of 15; making movies and shows where he can rewrite the ending of his life. I thought it was pretty sad for him to write his character as having gotten the girl, and then subject Pacey and Joey to watch a false ending that contradicts real life. He should have moved on at the age of 25/26.

[Butterfly85]

I guess Dawson/Jen were better in S5 but I just never thought they had much chemistry and he started to treat her like the backup girl when Joey didn't want him. Especially in S2, even lying about sleeping with Jen to get back at Joey (just like she lied about sleeping with Jack. Just another thing showing how toxic Dawson and Joey's relationship is. Trying to one up each other in any way possible RME. Just like the lies about P/J always fighting when over the series, you see nothing but D/J having vicious fights over and over again. Especially when Dawson's fragile ego was bruised) Oh yeah, I forgot about Dawson making that movie about his breakup with Joey. I agree that is very creepy and bizarre, just like Dawson's obsession with Joey's virginity. If they ever make a reboot hopefully they don't have Dawson act that creepy or obsessive again.

[PJ_always87]

I agree that they did not have much chemistry. However, I think personality wise she may have better a better match for him than Joey.

I hated when Dawson and Joey lied in front of their somewhat significant others about having sex. It really highlighted how they can throw anyone under the bus to one up each other. How anyone can see this as any foundation to a love story is beyond me.

IMO the only time Joey was ever shown to be light and happy was with Pacey. Pacey called her out on her Dawson worship, and I can't see how that counts as a major blow up. Usually they resoled their disagreement within one episode. Dawson and Joey's disagreements extended throughout the entire series. I honestly think he never forgave her for sleeping with Pacey, and she never forgave him for forcing her to turn in her father.

[Butterfly85]

Yeah, I do think Jen is a better match for Dawson than Joey. They aren't as bad and toxic as Dawson/Joey. I also agree that while P/J resolved their fight by the end of the episode like a mature and invested couple, D/J fought over dumb petty crap and held a grudge for weeks or months. Or they also avoided their problems letting them fester then blow up later. Dawson still holding a grudge and whining over things that happened years ago shows he never got over it, which isn't healthy.

[PJ_always87]

I just saw a commentary where someone said part of the problem with Dawson was that they never gave him a chance to be a star on the show. That the show was secretly Pacey's creek and that the writer's had a hard on for him.

I don't see it that way at all. Dawson was written as a Gary Stu. Unfortunately every girl that breezed into Capeside saw Dawson as this amazing thing and all fawned over him. Jack's ex-girlfriend, Jen, Gretchen, Natasha, Joey, etc. It came across as unbelievable since he did not have any chemistry with any of them; he was clumsy, not very charming and not a stud. People do not find this relatable when things are handed to a character easily just because they are an IT character. Joey had the same problem in the later seasons. Many writers fail to realize that people will naturally root for the underdog, and then become surprised when the audience does not necessarily find the lead character's story resonates with them.

[JJH85]

I don't really have anything against Dawson, but I did find this funny.

[Butterfly85]

Lmao! Well, I do have many things against Dawson and that description is spot on! Especially cause they wrote Dawson as a whiny, entitled, self absorbed, immature ahole.