[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! OMG, Cesare had 11 illegitimate children? And Lucrezia took care of all of them? Well, I don't think that Lucrezia would've had any problem with Cesare's daughter by Charlotte, she probably just figured that his daughter was already well taken care of in France and that Charlotte was taking care of everything, so it wasn't necessary. There was never any reason for Charlotte or Lucrezia to have any issues with each other since they'd never even cross paths. Oh, so he died in his fifties? I guess that's a long time back then, huh? Yeah, I suspected that Alfonso d'Este was insecure because Lucrezia was supposedly cheating on him all the time. Keeping her pregnant all the time seems a bit extreme, though. Yeah, that probably did result in her health problems. Human women aren't like dogs and cats, they can't just keep popping out kids like that. I think NJ just didn't give a by that point, Lila. I think he felt compromised in his artistic vision by Showtime and the fans, along with Francois and Holly's input, and I think he didn't even really understand the story he was telling. I mean, how much did he embellish or outright manufacture for the show that never even happened in the history? So why would he have a problem with the incest even if it didn't really happen, and especially since there was a precedent for it since the rumors about Cesare and Lucrezia did exist regardless of whether they were true or not. Yeah, I'm glad that script never got made, although I wish that someone else could've taken over the show and done a fourth season that would've ended similar to the BBC version. Sure, it would've been difficult to see Cesare die, but dying on a battlefield, lying in the grass, and having his memories of him and Lucrezia flashing through his mind while Lucrezia read his final letter to her and her children would've been a poignant, if sad, ending.

Hi Alex! Lucrezia didn't take care of all 11 of Cesar's kids. IDK why, maybe cause they were with their mothers? He had a zillion mistresses & probably had more than the 11 documented illegitimate kids Lucrezia had lots of men, too - what's the equivalent word like mistresses for a woman's lovers, misters? Oh that's right, women were ***** if they had lots of lovers & illegitimate kids Double standards.

Yeah, there was no reason for Lucrezia to be concerned about Louise's welfare, cause Charlotte saw to everything. It's just strange that she was never interested in meeting his only legitimate heir - who never actually inherited anything from him, except his name. Neither she nor Ces cared to ever see the child. She took an interest in his other children, but never Louise. Ces even named one of his daughters Lucrezia.

I think you're right about NJ resenting that HIS show was taken out of his control by showtime, François & Holly, & the fans. He had a vision for how it should've played out with the focus being on Rodrigo, but his vision was BORING. Cesar & Lucrezia became the focus of the show, cause of their insane chemistry & intriguing storyline. Fans couldn't resist them & the focus shifted away from NJ's vision. He became petulant & acted like a 2 year old having a tantrum, destroying everything in sight

[Anticipation]

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) I think you're right about NJ resenting that HIS show was taken out of his control by showtime, François & Holly, & the fans. He had a vision for how it should've played out with the focus being on Rodrigo, but his vision was BORING. Cesar & Lucrezia became the focus of the show, cause of their insane chemistry & intriguing storyline. Fans couldn't resist them & the focus shifted away from NJ's vision. He became petulant & acted like a 2 year old having a tantrum, destroying everything in sight

I don't see it like that. I think that NJ related to Cesar more than Rodrigo but was less enthusiastic about covering his downfall. Perhaps he was like Machiavelli who became disillusioned when Cesar seemed to have a kind of breakdown when everything started to fall apart after Della Rovere was elected.

How much influence did Showtime have?

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Thanks for that video, Arinna!

Originally Posted by Anticipation (View Post) I don't see it like that. I think that NJ related to Cesar more than Rodrigo but was less enthusiastic about covering his downfall. Perhaps he was like Machiavelli who became disillusioned when Cesar seemed to have a kind of breakdown when everything started to fall apart after Della Rovere was elected. How much influence did Showtime have?

Hi, Anticipation!

Well, I did read that NJ was more interested in Rodrigo and based the storyline of The Borgias a lot on The Godfather. I think Jordan was also fascinated by Cesare, but I read that exploring the Cesare/Lucrezia relationship was not his original plan and that Francois and Holliday were the ones that said the incestuous subtext was all over his writing and that they should just go in that direction. The Apocalypse storyline involved Rodrigo near death and begging for someone to take his confession throughout the movie only for it to end with Rodrigo realizing that he's already in hell and he died without anyone taking his confession. Jordan was also going to shift his focus from Cesare and Lucrezia to Cesare and Micheletto in the Apocalypse script, and Lucrezia was supposed to turn on Cesare and Rodrigo and try to poison both of them. That's why so many fans objected to the Apocalypse script, because it greatly contradicted the characters and story up to that point and deviated very far from the history.

I'm not sure how much influence that Showtime had, although I do know that they rejected Jordan's Apocalypse, saying it would be "too expensive," although how a two hour TV movie would be more expensive than a ten hour fourth season is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! Lucrezia didn't take care of all 11 of Cesar's kids. IDK why, maybe cause they were with their mothers? He had a zillion mistresses & probably had more than the 11 documented illegitimate kids Lucrezia had lots of men, too - what's the equivalent word like mistresses for a woman's lovers, misters? Oh that's right, women were ***** if they had lots of lovers & illegitimate kids Double standards.

Hi, Lila! Oh, okay. Well, I guess 11 kids would be difficult to take care of. Yeah, who knows how many kids Cesare had? And Lucrezia did nearly equal him in that respect. And I don't know what a woman called her lovers. I assume they just called them lovers. I don't believe a woman is a ***** just because of that. Not unless she's also deliberately cruel and hurtful as well. Men can be that way too.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Yeah, there was no reason for Lucrezia to be concerned about Louise's welfare, cause Charlotte saw to everything. It's just strange that she was never interested in meeting his only legitimate heir - who never actually inherited anything from him, except his name. Neither she nor Ces cared to ever see the child. She took an interest in his other children, but never Louise. Ces even named one of his daughters Lucrezia.

Well, I think you hit the nail right there. Cesare's heirs would never inherit anything because Della Rovere pretty much took everything away. Lucrezia was safe in Ferrara, but Cesare was sent to prison and I think his estate was taken away. He was never a king or anything like that, so none of his heirs would have any claim to anything either. So I guess it was on Louise's best interests to stay in Paris with Charlotte where she'd be safe and could grow up to have a relatively normal and prosperous life. And I remember reading that one of Cesare's daughters was named Lucrezia. I think there were a lot of Lucrezias after her.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) I think you're right about NJ resenting that HIS show was taken out of his control by showtime, François & Holly, & the fans. He had a vision for how it should've played out with the focus being on Rodrigo, but his vision was BORING. Cesar & Lucrezia became the focus of the show, cause of their insane chemistry & intriguing storyline. Fans couldn't resist them & the focus shifted away from NJ's vision. He became petulant & acted like a 2 year old having a tantrum, destroying everything in sight

Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Jordan was acting like a 2-year old. But he definitely was petulant regarding his original artistic vision for the show being like a Renaissance version of The Godfather, but he seemed to forget that even The Godfather shifted the story from Vito Corleone to Michael Corleone, so the same would be true of Rodrigo and Cesare. And who could deny that Cesare and Lucrezia were the emotional and romantic heart of the show? I guess I'll never understand NJ's motives.

[Mignonette]

Thanks for the video, Arinna!

Originally Posted by Anticipation (View Post) I don't see it like that. I think that NJ related to Cesar more than Rodrigo but was less enthusiastic about covering his downfall. Perhaps he was like Machiavelli who became disillusioned when Cesar seemed to have a kind of breakdown when everything started to fall apart after Della Rovere was elected. How much influence did Showtime have?

Oh I agree that NJ definitely focused on Cesar once he started writing the script for season one. And I'm really glad he didn't cover his downfall. I loved Cesar to pieces in the show & IRL, and there's no way I would've watched that

It was when he was creating the series prior to scriptwriting that he was focused more on Rodrigo in his vision for the show.

Cesar did fall apart after della Rovere crushed his empire. I hated that ******! If only Ces hadn't trusted that evil spawn of satan, things would've been so different. It was tragic that such a brilliant & unique man fell like Ces did. Machieavelli was very disconcerted at the change in Ces after his losses, but no matter how strong Ces had been, he suffered horrendously, and was after all, just a man

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Well, I did read that NJ was more interested in Rodrigo and based the storyline of The Borgias a lot on The Godfather. I think Jordan was also fascinated by Cesare, but I read that exploring the Cesare/Lucrezia relationship was not his original plan and that Francois and Holliday were the ones that said the incestuous subtext was all over his writing and that they should just go in that direction. The Apocalypse storyline involved Rodrigo near death and begging for someone to take his confession throughout the movie only for it to end with Rodrigo realizing that he's already in hell and he died without anyone taking his confession. Jordan was also going to shift his focus from Cesare and Lucrezia to Cesare and Micheletto in the Apocalypse script, and Lucrezia was supposed to turn on Cesare and Rodrigo and try to poison both of them. That's why so many fans objected to the Apocalypse script, because it greatly contradicted the characters and story up to that point and deviated very far from the history. I'm not sure how much influence that Showtime had, although I do know that they rejected Jordan's Apocalypse, saying it would be "too expensive," although how a two hour TV movie would be more expensive than a ten hour fourth season is beyond me. Hi, Lila! Oh, okay. Well, I guess 11 kids would be difficult to take care of. Yeah, who knows how many kids Cesare had? And Lucrezia did nearly equal him in that respect. And I don't know what a woman called her lovers. I assume they just called them lovers. I don't believe a woman is a ***** just because of that. Not unless she's also deliberately cruel and hurtful as well. Men can be that way too. Well, I think you hit the nail right there. Cesare's heirs would never inherit anything because Della Rovere pretty much took everything away. Lucrezia was safe in Ferrara, but Cesare was sent to prison and I think his estate was taken away. He was never a king or anything like that, so none of his heirs would have any claim to anything either. So I guess it was on Louise's best interests to stay in Paris with Charlotte where she'd be safe and could grow up to have a relatively normal and prosperous life. And I remember reading that one of Cesare's daughters was named Lucrezia. I think there were a lot of Lucrezias after her. Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Jordan was acting like a 2-year old. But he definitely was petulant regarding his original artistic vision for the show being like a Renaissance version of The Godfather, but he seemed to forget that even The Godfather shifted the story from Vito Corleone to Michael Corleone, so the same would be true of Rodrigo and Cesare. And who could deny that Cesare and Lucrezia were the emotional and romantic heart of the show? I guess I'll never understand NJ's motives.

Hi Alex! I despise sexual double standards: what's good for the goose, is good for the gander Back then, things were so much worse for women. Poor Lucrezia had a bad reputation in Rome for doing the same things Cesar & Juan did. Because they were men, they were studs, but women were called ****** and punished

When I said NJ acted like a 2 year old, I meant in destroying the Borgias with his TBA script. That script looked like the room after a 2 year old has broken everything & trashed it!

I may have seen the same interviews as you, where both Jeremy & NJ talked about his original vision, which focused on Rodrigo. It's true, he did become more sympathetic to Cesar and placed more focus on his character.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Thanks for the gif, Arinna! I love the bedroom seduction scene!

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! I despise sexual double standards: what's good for the goose, is good for the gander Back then, things were so much worse for women. Poor Lucrezia had a bad reputation in Rome for doing the same things Cesar & Juan did. Because they were men, they were studs, but women were called ****** and punished When I said NJ acted like a 2 year old, I meant in destroying the Borgias with his TBA script. That script looked like the room after a 2 year old has broken everything & trashed it! I may have seen the same interviews as you, where both Jeremy & NJ talked about his original vision, which focused on Rodrigo. It's true, he did become more sympathetic to Cesar and placed more focus on his character.

Hi, Lila!

Yep, I don't like double standards or hypocrisy either. And to be honest, from what I've read, Lucrezia really didn't even deserve the reputation she got because she really wasn't like how people described her. In terms of promiscuity, she wasn't anything like Caterina Sforza in that regard, you know? She also wasn't the ruthless, diabolical poisoner they made her out to be either, they just wanted to ruin her reputation because of her family.

Yes, I know what you meant. I also thought NJ was being petulant and vindictive with his Apocalypse script. It wasn't just disrespectful to the characters and contradicted their entire development up to the end of season 3, it was just bad writing all around. No wonder Showtime rejected it. I sometimes wonder if Jordan deliberately made Apocalypse that bad just so he could get out of doing a fourth season?

Yes, I do remember that NJ's original model for The Borgias was The Godfather, and he arranged the story and characters accordingly. But even The Godfather shifted focus from Vito to Michael at the halfway point, so Jordan should've known that the focus of the show should shift to Cesare. Even in the history, Cesare's story continued after Rodrigo's death, the big difference is that unlike Michael Corleone, Cesare wasn't able to maintain his empire without his father's help and influence. And unlike Cesare, Michael Corleone wasn't having an affair with his sister. I don't think Connie and Michael were all that close. But in The Godfather Part III, Michael's daughter did end up having an affair with Sonny Corleone's illegitimate son, who was her cousin, so I guess there's the incest for you.

[Mignonette]

Thanks for that slo-mo gif, Arinna It's one of my favorite gifs!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Thanks for the gif, Arinna! I love the bedroom seduction scene!

Hi Alex! Yeah, that bedroom seduction scene was hot! My favorite was their actual sex scene, of course!, but that one was way up there. I'm surprised Cesar didn't make a move on her after that, considering he was on the verge of taking her when the maid knocked.

Why do you think he didn't, Alex? I'm always interested in your take on Cesar, cause you're a guy & you know his character so well My thinking is that while he was most definitely in lust with her & wanted to take her to bed, his love for her was on an idealized plane. She was on a pedestal that no other woman could reach, so his love for her was unlike anything he'd ever felt. It was obvious in the way he worshipped her, the way he touched her as if she were made of glass, & how his eyes never left her face when he spoke to her. And especially how he stared into her eyes the entire time he was making love to her.

I think the reason he lost his self control & kissed her at the wedding seating board, is because she was tearful, questioning his loyalty to her, and he couldn't handle that. He didn't know how to express how much she meant to him in words, so he showed her. It wasn't a conscious choice, but an overwhelming need that had been repressed. He needed to reassure her, but also needed her to reassure him.

She was focused on sex in her seduction of him. In the "I only feel safe when you're nearby" scene which followed her naked on the bed scene, she sees him with the tailor & his shirt is open. She's staring at his naked torso while she's talking to him about Alfonso (so obvious Alf was doomed!) . Her eyes actually follow his happy trail from his naval down & his pants are sitting pretty low. Don't judge me for noticing that, ok? She's focused on his body just like she wanted him to focus on hers when she lured him into her bedroom. But he was focused on being her hero & making her happy, even tho he absolutely wanted to be her lover.

I think that's why she was so blown away after having sex with him: she was caught off guard by the intensity of her emotions, her love for him. She'd convinced herself she'd just needed to feel loved & sex was the way she went about it. But she didn't realize it really wasn't about HER needing to feel loved, it was about her need to show HIM how much she loved him - to make HIM feel loved. When she realized this the next morning, all the love she had felt for him for so long just bubbled over & consumed her.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

I loved that moment. I think right there Lucrezia just sat her plan in motion.

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Well, I think the bedroom seduction scene was a preview of coming attractions. It led into the incest scene. And yeah, I'm surprised that Cesare showed so much restraint in that scene when his naked sister is practically begging him to take her right then and there.

I think that in spite of his feelings, Cesare also considered Lucrezia to be the one pure, innocent thing in his life, and he didn't want to spoil that considering what had happened with so many other women he'd been intimate with. I wouldn't dismiss how much his relationship with Ursula may have affected him, along with her death, and perhaps Cesare felt he needed to protect his sister even from himself? I agree, he did put her on a pedestal that perhaps he felt even he was unworthy of. That's why she had to be the one to not only let him know it was okay, she also had to be the one to instigate things between them.

Yep, Lucrezia did seem to be showing her adoration of Cesare during that scene in the armory where he was dressing and she was admiring his physique. I would say that she was mentally undressing him with her eyes, wouldn't you? That is what probably compelled her to ask him to come to her bedroom while she was naked in front of him, to see if he admired her form just as she had done for his.

Well, it is true that Lucrezia was walking on air after having had sex with Cesare. It seemed her whole demeanor changed, as she told Alfonso, as if a cloud had descended on her. But was it a cloud, or a new clarity? She seemed even less interested in Alfonso afterwards, and was even more confident and self assured, not to mention ruthless, as she showed during her time in Naples.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) I loved that moment. I think right there Lucrezia just sat her plan in motion.

Hi Arinna! You're referring to the scene of her naked on her bed about to kiss him? I think she put her plan in motion after he kissed her in the armory. That kiss confirmed his desire for her & gave her the green light.

When she lured him into her bedroom, she fully planned to **** him right then. The poor girl was doing & saying everything to get him to take her! And he was going for it. He would've taken her without a doubt if the maid hadn't knocked. I knew his resolve was gone when François added "at last..." when they were about to kiss. His "at last" wasn't referring to just kissing her...

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) I think that in spite of his feelings, Cesare also considered Lucrezia to be the one pure, innocent thing in his life, and he didn't want to spoil that considering what had happened with so many other women he'd been intimate with. I wouldn't dismiss how much his relationship with Ursula may have affected him, along with her death, and perhaps Cesare felt he needed to protect his sister even from himself? I agree, he did put her on a pedestal that perhaps he felt even he was unworthy of. That's why she had to be the one to not only let him know it was okay, she also had to be the one to instigate things between them. Yep, Lucrezia did seem to be showing her adoration of Cesare during that scene in the armory where he was dressing and she was admiring his physique. I would say that she was mentally undressing him with her eyes, wouldn't you? That is what probably compelled her to ask him to come to her bedroom while she was naked in front of him, to see if he admired her form just as she had done for his. Well, it is true that Lucrezia was walking on air after having had sex with Cesare. It seemed her whole demeanor changed, as she told Alfonso, as if a cloud had descended on her. But was it a cloud, or a new clarity? She seemed even less interested in Alfonso afterwards, and was even more confident and self assured, not to mention ruthless, as she showed during her time in Naples.

Hi Alex! Brilliant observation about Ces needing to protect the women he loved from himself after Ursula. That woman was a fool. First, because she passed up ******* Cesar Borgia!! & second, because she stuck herself away in a convent. Ugh

Remember Lu sitting on the papal throne telling Ces she'd heard his hands were stained with blood? She said she'd save him by hook or by crook. Alex, you nailed it: he definitely saw himself as unworthy of being loved by her. It wasn't just the incest that would stain her - it was HIM. His psyche NEEDED her to be pure. Like you said, she was the one pure thing in his life & he saw her purity as saving him. He'd descended so far after killing Juan that he needed her light to keep himself from being engulfed by the darkness.

Oh yes, she was undressing him with her eyes in the armory, in her bedroom, & when the tailor was pinning his shirt. He stared at her naked body (duh), but he never ever undressed her with his eyes, did you notice that??

She was the one eyeing HIS body & taking things to the sexual level. His armory kiss had sexual subtext, but was more romantic. I really loved how she had no idea what having sex with him would do to her heart. She already had so much love for him, but the sex ignited it in a way she hadn't expected.

As I've said before, the difference between men & women in how having sex affects their emotions was so obvious with C&L. He felt ashamed & guilty afterwards, but having sex with her didn't make him love her more or less. She didn't feel ANY negative emotions afterward & fell even deeper in love with him. She hated the thought of another man touching her, but Ces thoroughly enjoyed himself in bed with Charlotte - while being completely, deeply in love with Lu.

This is the #1 reason why women can't understand men. Women who aren't in love can have meaningless sex with lots of men, but when a woman is in love, another man's touch doesn't do it for her & is usually repellent. A man can be madly in love, but still have a blast in bed with other women.

That "cloud descending on me, my heart" line was strangely written. I agree it was a new clarity, Alex, not a cloud. She certainly knew exactly what she wanted after having sex with Ces: HIM!

[BL.Arinna_1982]

The scene I was talking about. I think she was ready, but he wasn't.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) The scene I was talking about. I think she was ready, but he wasn't.

Hi Arinna Agreed! But she got him ready pretty fast, cause he was going for it when the maid knocked!

He was really caught off guard when he walked in & she was naked lying on her bed. The look on his face The most priceless look tho was when he closed the door, turned around to face her, & she’d moved her arm letting her dress fall. He’d seen she was naked, but she had the dress covering her breasts &

But while he had his back to her, she let go of the dress, laid her arm up along her side, moved her hips back, & exposed EVERYTHING for him!! When he saw that, his eyes were huge. He looked her up & down before he managed to look at her face & stutter, “I should leave sis..”.

But he obviously had no intention of leaving, cause he’s the one who closed the door after seeing her naked. He knew she was naked FOR him & he definitely had naughty thoughts of doing things to her, cause before closing the door, he paused to check if anyone had seen him enter her bedroom!

I think when he closed the door, THAT was THE moment he decided he was going to take her, but he still needed her to assure him. He was such a Casanova, but his sister was uncharted territory. You could see his mind working, trying to figure out if this was another game, or if she was serious about it. There was no way he was going to make a move unless he was sure it was what she wanted.

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Thanks. I like to think I make good observations.

Well, most of us considered Ursula to be a fool, and it was probably a mistake for Cesare to get involved with her, but you know him. But a lot of what happened was her fault and at least she owned up to it. She's the one who got involved with him, and she's the one who asked him to free her, knowing where it would lead.

Ohhh, I loved the scene where Lu was on St. Peter's throne talking to Cesare. The look between the two of them was adorable! Yes, he did see himself as tainted, and Lu took it upon herself to try and save him from the darkness. Although she had a bid of darkness in herself after dropping that chandelier on Juan. So yes, it wasn't just the incest that bothered Cesare, it was him not wanting to taint her as well. Oh, and I agree, Cesare had definitely undressed her with his eyes on many occasions.

Yes, Lu decided that she would be the one to pursue him after the armory scene. Ces was just doing what he always did, stealing kisses from her as if that would be all he'd ever get, but little did he know that she was being affected by their closeness the same way that he was. Yes, I remember you've told me about how sex affects men and women differently, Lila. I appreciate you making that distinction and clarifying it for me. Yeah, Cesare and Charlotte seemed more like BFF's having sex, to be honest.

Well, when have men ever understood women? And thanks for agreeing with me. I did think that having sex with Cesare gave her a new clarity that she didn't have before. You could see it in the way she carried herself for the remainder of the show. Cesare and Lucrezia never acted like brother and sister again after that, they acted like lovers... or even spouses.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Thanks. I like to think I make good observations. Well, most of us considered Ursula to be a fool, and it was probably a mistake for Cesare to get involved with her, but you know him. But a lot of what happened was her fault and at least she owned up to it. She's the one who got involved with him, and she's the one who asked him to free her, knowing where it would lead. Ohhh, I loved the scene where Lu was on St. Peter's throne talking to Cesare. The look between the two of them was adorable! Yes, he did see himself as tainted, and Lu took it upon herself to try and save him from the darkness. Although she had a bid of darkness in herself after dropping that chandelier on Juan. So yes, it wasn't just the incest that bothered Cesare, it was him not wanting to taint her as well. Oh, and I agree, Cesare had definitely undressed her with his eyes on many occasions. Yes, Lu decided that she would be the one to pursue him after the armory scene. Ces was just doing what he always did, stealing kisses from her as if that would be all he'd ever get, but little did he know that she was being affected by their closeness the same way that he was. Yes, I remember you've told me about how sex affects men and women differently, Lila. I appreciate you making that distinction and clarifying it for me. Yeah, Cesare and Charlotte seemed more like BFF's having sex, to be honest. Well, when have men ever understood women? And thanks for agreeing with me. I did think that having sex with Cesare gave her a new clarity that she didn't have before. You could see it in the way she carried herself for the remainder of the show. Cesare and Lucrezia never acted like brother and sister again after that, they acted like lovers... or even spouses.

You're right, Alex, she did carry herself differently after she & Ces became lovers. She was always his alter-ego, but after sex, she became even more like him. I think she realized what she'd been missing out on & even tho they weren't always able to be together, she knew how he felt and that the bond they shared was invincible. I LOVED that they still called each other "sis" & "brother", even in private, after becoming lovers. They were completely aware it was incest & didn't give a damn! (except in protecting themselves from other people, of course)

Men will never understand us Women are complicated & we barely understand ourselves. Look at Ursula as an example. She had to have known in some part of her mind what she was asking Ces when she said "liberate me", but she acted surprised when he killed her husband & put all the blame on him. It was the reason she joined the convent - she knew she was responsible for leading Ces in that direction, even tho she wanted to escape the reality of it.